Feedback Crafting 2.0 – Official Statement & Feedback needed

Discussion in 'Discussions on Current Topics' started by Allogeneous, Mar 22, 2016.

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  1. ekant1992

    ekant1992 Padavan

    Yes you will cause it won't let you craft glyphed up items :p
  2. -Skygazer-

    -Skygazer- Advanced

    I think what Armando meant was getting the default glyphs values out of the destroyed items, not the upgrade values
    ekant1992 and Armando like this.
  3. bLaind

    bLaind Forum Baron

    I'm sorry but in DSO you can cast Mind Control and get the all the credits you want.
    Doing a real-life reference is just a waste of time... and all the logic falls apart when a SW casts a spell... i.e.: No such things in real life.
  4. Armando

    Armando Forum Connoisseur

    Well, I think the simplest analogy is that of buying an insurance.
    Getting an insurance always means distributing the cost of risk among many people.
    The more likely you are to actually make a claim, the more you benefit from the insurance.
    Of course I am aware that also your design would allow me the choice of not buying the insurance, but it would not allow me to get my items back by PAYING the "full damage"/"repair cost" in case of bad luck, but I would then completely lose my items.
    It's like whenever you have a minor accident with your car (e.g. a flat tire), you would have to buy a new car, if you do not get an insurance in advance.

    I am intending to use as many good items and to need as few crafting attempts as possible.
    As an "insurance" would also be calculated for those people who start crafting with 1/4 legendaries (taking a much higher risk of "failure" than I would), buying the insurance in advance would make crafting more expensive for me, in average.

    It's like paying the same price for an insurance for your 25kmph motor cycle as someone else for a 300 HP sports car...

    Whether BP would be willing to let us decide what to "buy back" only after knowing the crafting result is a totally different question.
    I was stating what I would want/prefer, not what I believe we can actually get. But assuming that you don't get everything you ask for anyway, it's better to demand more in the beginning ;-).
  5. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador

    I like the idea with the locks for the gems.

    I was going to suggest 4 buttons.

    Craft 1.0 button what we have now
    Craft 2.0 with 2 3 and 4 items back each more expensive.

    But I like the idea you have also.
  6. Red_Jaeger

    Red_Jaeger Junior Expert

    Well, I am already at stage 5 of your list and I am already researching other games to purchase/join. Still, maybe things will change for the better and writing a recommendation will only take two minutes of my time, so it does not hurt to try.

    While testing the feature in the test server, I noticed that the two first items were always left intact and the two items from the right were always destroyed. So, if that system holds, you can select which two (or three) of the items you want to keep in case of a bad roll.

    I strongly disagree with the destruction of items. Two items, one item, it hardly matters to me. All that this system will do is force users to enter an endless grind, trying to combine two/three good items with any random items that they just farmed and do not care about, praying that the roll will select the stats from the good items.

    In my opinion, a much more usable and fair system would be to eliminate revert altogether and offer the users the ability to choose between random stats or to select stats themselves. For example, let us assume that crafting four legendary items into a better legendary item would cost X gold/ander. By default, the system will select four random stats. If the user desires, he/she should be able to select stats manually by increasing the cost of the craft. For example, if the user want to manually select one stat, the cost could triple. For two, three and four stats, the cost could muptiply by nine, twenty-seven and seventy-two times respectively. Of course, for extraordinary or lower items, the manual selection of a third-fourth stat should not be possible. This will make "fine-tuned" items very expensive for those willing to pay and or patient enough to farm resources for them, but also offer the average player better control and the possibility of making a better item without making the entirety of the process a random gamble.
  7. MikeyMetro

    MikeyMetro Forum Overlooker

    Some interesting ideas being tossed around. My problem is that much of them are turning into rocket science (deciding how many items to get back, what to save, how much and when to pay, etc.) This is a game. It should be simple. To that end I would suggest a simple solution.

    I am still in favor of salvaging the original build on the test server where all the items are returned on revert. However, put the Legendary to Legendary crafting on ice for now. Go back to the old green to blue to purple to orange. This should address the most prominent concerns kicking around.
    • Too OP Too Quickly would be gone
    • P2P using cash to leverage the system would be slowed down (and cost more) since every craft would generate at least one random stat line.
    • No sacrificing of coin or glyphs by having items destroyed on revert.
    I thought the legend > legend crafting thing was cool at first. But what is the point of it? So far the only point seems to have been to create a big mess.

    Right now I just tired of the whole crafting 2.0 thing. And I wasn't even around when the discussion started, lol.

    Luck be with ye,
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
    Armando likes this.
  8. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    90% of the talk is focused on how much more the current OP players will possibly get. We all know that no matter what happens, these players will eventually get more OP. Adding to the cost or placing restrictions on reverting does not hurt the OP players nearly as much as those still building a character.

    Since we cannot stop the OP, the focus should be on closing that gap as much as possible, as fast as possible.

    Boosting up average players benefits everyone. Even if the current OP players became god like, the influx of better than average players would help with pvp as there would be more playing. Finding good groups in the pw's would be easier with more players who could carry their own weight.

    I remember what it was like before I was able to run the PW's. It was tough. You could go back and run regular maps with their mostly white gear drops or stand around asking for a group.

    Most of us engaging in this conversation have the ability to farm quickly and easily. A little bit of restriction or adding to the cost will not adversely affect us. No it won't make us happy, but it isn't a back breaker either.

    Most of us can get a hundred gold an hour running Q3, but what about all the players who are still stuck on the regular maps because they can't farm the pw's?

    This entire conversation reminds me of Greg (CM) running around using red ess with great gear to show us how things are.

    Go back and run a regular map like Stalgard or Stillwater Bay over and over all day long like it was the best you could do. Then come back and tell us what you want in a crafting system.
    Zed and -Skygazer- like this.
  9. Dragonnns

    Dragonnns Count Count

    There are a ton of Crafting threads and wasn't sure of the best place to post this so I figured the "official" one might make the most sense.

    I like a lot of the different ideas on crafting and think several of them could work. I am one of those non-OP players, just trying to get through my first PW. (I still need to join a group that has the oomph to kill Grimm one more time as I sure can't!) Being able to craft an item that is better than one I have is an attractive option. So far, I have ignored crafting as it never seemed beneficial.

    In all of the ideas, it seems that we are passing them on as if we understood what BP's goal was with this. If it was stated, I can't find it. Regardless, I am a bit confused as to why it would matter to BP if player 1 had a god-like item and player 2 didn't. That seems to be the case now (look at the low-level upgraded items for example). They haven't done anything to address that situation so I'm not convinced that is their goal.

    We all know that a company needs to make money to survive. Therefore, all the paying players have a spot in BP's heart (or wallet as the case may be). Since the first crafting format would encourage people to pay to improve their items, taking it away doesn't make a lot of sense. Changing to the "2.0.3" version makes farming more advantageous, particularly if andermant prices go up.

    So does BP want players to pay? or to farm? And why?

    If the goal is to make players stay and play the game, then keeping the ability to revert all four items makes the most sense.

    If the goal is to force players to grind for gold, then the last iteration makes the most sense.

    For me, without knowing what the ultimate goal is, I can't begin to figure out what the right path might be that includes both the player and DSO in attaining satisfaction.

    As a side note: I truly appreciate all the hard work done by those doing the mathematical calculations and those testing it on the test server. Thank you for doing the work and sharing it with the rest of us.
  10. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    As stated here they will implement the second version anyway.

    If that is the case ... only one thing makes sense:
    If one is not satisfied with the outcome ... s/he should be able to select which items should be kept.
    The selection is to be made ONLY and ONLY after crafting and before reverting.

    1. Place the ingredient items
    2. Craft
    3. If you are satisfied with the item Accept ->ELSE ->revert
    4. Revert

    5. Accept

    Only this way is Fair for both sides ... and only this way it is not staged (controlled) process.
  11. -Skygazer-

    -Skygazer- Advanced

    I am well over the whole Craft 2.0 thing, what a mess it has become!
    I am sure that I will be able to farm a better piece of equipment before I am able to craft one.

    It was almost all good to go live and maths had been posted. What was achievable on the test server with over 100k gold and lots of good legendary gear to spare, would not be the case on live server.

    I don't know exactly who influenced their stupid decision to change that, but it definitely did not have my vote. It's been said that the request to change it came from heavy P2P players and being one myself, I refuse to understand why.
    Troneck86 likes this.
  12. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Look at that this way:
    1. You are playing at server which has small community ... compared to Heredur and Grimmag.
    Your investment in the game together with the the other player's investment at your server are having insignificant part in BP's income ... compared to players from i.e. Heredur. There are thousands of them and they don't want to get competition in the other players.
    2. There are players that never tested anything in their life (and sadly they are in big number) spending TS resources for gambling at Jesters ... have no knowledge of this game ... yet screaming around loud as cats in mating season.
    3. BP management wants more money to be pulled out from the players thus ordering devs to implement BP-friendly version.
    4. They are implementing this feature not just for us but for their other DSO versions . We are testing and making suggestions for game improvement ... while the others are only taking advantage over us (they are getting everything on a silver platter). And not to mention the "farming" part that BP wan'ts to be part of their excuse. That part is having great impact on us but not on their other game versions ... i.e. we have to farm endlessly ... while in same time the Chinese players are enjoying a legal "botting tool".
    That is unfair competition from start ... and yet the same crafting rules should work for us and them.
    Javah and -Skygazer- like this.
  13. taketh

    taketh Regular

    I am not sure why crafting 2.0 is changing. Players have started to farm ingredients, storing up green and blue items. I hope you take this into consideration if you nerf it further. I had been farming for ingredients when i first heard about crafting 2.0, and then had to melt a lot since it wasnt how i thought it would be. I and i imagine many others will be annoyed if you further nerf 2.0 in such a way that the current ingredients we have farmed become useless.

  14. Javah

    Javah Forum Veteran

    I've always admired people who, with so much commitment and dedication (and brains of course! But that either you have or you do not), are so devoted to test so accurately and in-depth any functionality whatever is proposed, just in order to help to make it possible, fair and balanced for both the parties (developer and players).

    I believe that the latter is an essential and indispensable condition for any game that does not want to behave like a virus (landing in unpolluted areas and slaughtering players, as long as someone survives) but wants instead be able to build an ecosystem able to sustain itself and survive also beyond 2017, when some competitor will release the international edition of their creatures (a couple in particular) that could devour Drakensang in one bite.

    BP has the good fortune, almost unique for what I see around (and they seem not be aware of this, dumb as they seem to be), to have users like _Baragain_, trakilaki, Rhysingstar and a few others who throw themselves heart and brain in a free and wasteful activity as the analysis of new and reworked features, good or not they are, on the test server, with virtually nothing in return except the hope to continue to see a way to prolong the existence of Drakensang. In the facts, such players fill the gaps where the staff of the developers do not seem able to find and understand the best (= most fair) decisions to take, all supported by theory, practice and experience together. And it is a shame and a sad thing to see that their decisions are going to end up in the way that we all know now.

    It is not for me to say whether, given the current situation, it is arrived the time to suspend any involvement about the server test. And let this be throng of EDIT, going to throw hundreds of thousands of golds on jesters for a stupid fun. But surely all that deserves the BP at this time is to have to help itself - amid the indifference of the few able to give a contribute - and then give birth to their own messes in total autonomy.

    When people will be quite stove about the status quo, maybe things will change. Or maybe not. But at that point it will be too late.
    Last edited by moderator: May 26, 2016
    Belei, trakilaki, Rhysingstar and 2 others like this.

    BLASTUP Active Author

    So Today i had conversation with the designer of the crafting 2.0 system(on test server). He was of the view that if the initial crafting would have came than the need of farming for items would have finished and players only needed gold or ander for crafting items. He said anyways no one uses crafting 1.0 so it makes no difference if the players use crafting 2.0 or not (meaning that it was useless and it is useless :p) .
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  16. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    This is a microcosm of the main issue with DSO.

    They are in such a hurry to create a release, that the thought process slows down.

    There seems to be very little purpose behind most of the releases other than simply releasing something on their imaginary time table.

    They saw crafting in another popular game and instead of taking that and improving upon it, they simply threw a watered down version of it into this game.

    It wasn't very good to begin with, then in their infinite wisdom they decided to try and further ruin it by charging too much.

    After a while, someone finally looked into the data and realized that most players ignored this segment of the game.

    Then they mistakenly came up with something good and useful, then upon realizing it, sought out excuses to not release it.

    The argument that players would only farm gold or ander to craft without looking for items is a complete contradiction.

    Great items don't just appear because we have gold or ander. We have to farm for them.

    Every single player in the game knows how hard it is to find good items.

    So using that particular excuse is a lie to justify their excuse for not implementing a player friendly system.

    The single biggest reason why so many players are leaving the game is because the majority of the feedback is ignored.

    Just read the feedback on events, gnob, costumes, mounts, emotes, gear, crafting, cv system, pvp balancing, bugs, monsters, bosses, and you can see the obvious pattern.

    Yes, they occasionally throw us a bone after a year or two of begging, so that they can "pretend" that they are listening.

    Maybe this is why they sold out and are now focusing all their effort on the Chinese market. After all, with auto botting you don't have to spend your time worrying about drops and crafting or anything else.
    Belei, Zed, EhtovK and 1 other person like this.
  17. gun

    gun Forum Great Master

    What his view & said does not make any sense. Typical lacking of helicopter view.
    BLASTUP likes this.

    BLASTUP Active Author

    Agreed, but he said that it would be much easy to get good items with initial crafting...
    So here is my suggestion :
    Instead of items being destroyed , when u press the revert button u get all the items back but each craft the enchants get lowered and at the end there will be minimum values as there are for the corresponding items
    In this way u can craft as much as u can but as their stats get lower , u get lower benefit for each try.
    This will hopefully work for everyone , as the devs have the problem of not farming for items so it will be solved as u have to farm new items when the values of older items will be minimized...
    i will like if it is like this :
    Just a suggestion, i know they wil not implement it :D
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  19. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Nerfing the items isn't really that much better than taking them away from me. Either way they become useless to the craft.

    I'm so sick of this, I'm at the point where I wish that they should just get rid of the stupid thing and be done with it.

    Of course I suggested that when they changed 1.0 the last time.

    If you're not going to do it right, why bother wasting the time to create another worthless system.
    EhtovK, BLASTUP and trakilaki like this.
  20. bLaind

    bLaind Forum Baron

    Paycheck raise. :rolleyes: