Feedback Crafting 2.0 – Official Statement & Feedback needed

Discussion in 'Discussions on Current Topics' started by Allogeneous, Mar 22, 2016.

Dear forum reader,

if you’d like to actively participate on the forum by joining discussions or starting your own threads or topics, please log into the game first. If you do not have a game account, you will need to register for one. We look forward to your next visit! CLICK HERE
  1. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    If I were in charge of BP's career center ... I would hire you immediately.
    Because I haven't seen such a lame proposal in long time. (no offence just being sarcastic :p)
    Why on Earth would I want to farm items for crafting if I know I would only get devaluation of my hard work and the items?
    BLASTUP likes this.
  2. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    I just went back and read through the R139 feedback when they removed cots and began charging for crafting.

    One of the excuses was "We want players focused on farming and not on crafting".

    Since the original idea for crafting 2.0 was "no one is crafting" it is sort of ironic that they now are using the exact same excuse.

    BLASTUP Active Author

    Why on earth would u farm for items for crafting if u know that u would only destroy those items in crafting?
    if the devaluation is less and of only last 2 items u can really get a lot of good items from the same ingrediants....
    I was really expecting some words like that :D
    Actually i got this in my mind after talking with the "designer"........ i know this is bad suggestion but still is far better (as i suppose) than just destroying 2 items
    And finally i think only this bigpoint can accept , as they are not going to give u back all 4 items..............
  4. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Not just that
    Read the marked sections ... and if you play the clip you can hear Jason saying : "We wanted to reduce the grinding" .
    They want to reduce the grinding ... and knowing that Chinese players (not us) are using legal botting tool ... they "really feel that that double layer need to be removed" and instead of x2 make it x200.

    Would you invest your money in a business ... knowing in advance that you need to work harder and harder ... and with every next investment (which is must do ... you must invest) you are only losing money?
    Did you ask if s/he is game designer ... or maybe a fashion designer?

    With this system implemented as it is now ... the only logical solution is the example i have given in the previous posts.
    If I am about to lose 2 items ... at least make me choose which 2 items. That will give me opportunity to place the items wherever I want before crafting ... and not only in the first 2 slots.
    -Skygazer- and Javah like this.
  5. Javah

    Javah Forum Veteran

    No wonder that he did not understand anything of what _Baragain_ explained up here. Maybe he did not even try to read it. But it sounds really worrying (if it was a serious thing, I would say that is chilling) to know that those who hold the development could reason in this way. "Let's do something just to do it because, crap for crap, it makes no difference". Yeah.

    Drakensang is a product with a long life behind it, but would still have a good potential, if only those who manage it have a pale idea about what to do. And if such developer even declares the deep and savant reasoning that he put in place when took the decisions, then we are at the deadline.

    Your proposal, according to which the recovery of every item would result in a deterioration of its quality, has its own logic, and certainly is better than losing good items (thinking on how rare they are) in an immediate and irrevocable way. Try to talk with him again, if he could ever understand: perhaps in this way we have few attempts before the item degrades too much. And maybe, within the duration of a human life, it would make possible to craft better items than what we farm&melt everyday. But what a sadness.

    Really, it's like to put a patch against a hole that is twice as much. Sigh. The game is quickly going to a level of insignificance unthinkable till not so long ago.

    Good idea in order to do not offer indication to the game on which item we trust more, and make things harder for their nerfing (if it is true that 90% of bonuses are now taken from 3rd and 4th item).
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
    Zed, EhtovK, _Baragain_ and 2 others like this.

    BLASTUP Active Author

    He said that he has read all the info given on forum, especially he referred to baragain posts that he has read them all .....And before i took some pictures of the conversation the game kicked me and than he was off....
    Yes thats my point , it will give us some attempts .. not like now we will just destroy our good items.....
    First of all the COTS were not removed because of the reasons bigpoint gave , but actually because it had a huge bug which they could not remove.... i knew the bug but never used it and never told it to someone else
    that bug is still there but bcz there is no COTS system so u cant use it
    That admin told that he designed the whole crafting system....
  7. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    No we won't destroying our items ... everyone with common sense would use 2 junk items in the last 2 slots. We are only losing resources which are the grinding part.
    What I am asking as a possible solution will make the system exactly the same as they (dev team) want it to be ... BUT ... it will remove great amount of our suspicion in their "good intentions" towards us.
    Their "random" system will get even more random.
    Make up your mind fashion designer or admin? :p
    Yea I had a bottle of vodka in my fridge and I never took a sip. :D
  8. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador

    If you are referring to see what an item is without using COT yes it is fixed just try the method on a cube.

    Now for the crafting system. I would much rather select the two items after the craft is completed. I think that they will start looking for golden stats to not be transferable and that would be a downer...
    Javah and BLASTUP like this.
  9. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Please Stop! This is an awful idea and if we're unlucky, they might actually listen. Why on earth would I want the stats to get worse? That is even worse than only being able to save two items. At least with 2, I can keep my best stats as opposed to losing stats over time... an each one of those stats takes weeks to farm one line at a high enough value!

    Too bad that they didn't implement my feedback... it would have saved them a ton of negative feedback in a couple weeks.
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
    Armando and Javah like this.
  10. Red_Jaeger

    Red_Jaeger Junior Expert

    Something is a little fishy about this. Are you sure, if you talked to a designer (in the game - and it conveniently kicked you offline too), that he/she said exactly that? Because if I was working on something for months, even something much simpler than this, I would be very frustrated to know that it is not any good, even if the client/recipient was content with it. What you are basically telling us is that the very designer of the feature spent months working on something that he/she does not care if nobody is going to use it and of the negative feedback received. Psychologically speaking, that is abnormal and requires professional attention. We are talking about chronic depression, or worse. I cannot prove anything but I honestly do not want to believe that. Besides, finding a "chatty" member of the design team in the game willing to share that much information just does not add up. Any staff member, not the particular designer, could join the conversation right here, or even just throw in a message with thoughts and ideas, and yet noone ever does.

    Anyway, if you ever see him online again, please do pass along a message from me. Tell him/her "What are you doing here playing? GET BACK TO WORK!". :p

    The idea to have the stats "nerfed" is terrible. That would destroy the capabilities of all items. At least if you get two back, you can find two very good items and start combining them with random items until the roll selects the stats from the first two items. If the stats are being nerfed, you are destroying all of your items and finding items with really good stats is very, very hard.

    The idea of getting items destroyed is also terrible, even though less than your own. Finding four good legendary items with just one good stat each can take several months, even for the strongest of players. I have one of the strongest DK's in Heredur and I have been looking for two particular item types for the past five months. I only found two and three of each type respectively, with just one high stat that I care about on each - and I only play in Fatal mode too. So, even if I get the missing items tomorrow morning, the new system tells me that I have a chance of about 0.5% to get the four stats that I want, or I will lose two of the items and get back to farming for another five months. I am definitely unwilling to do such a boring, meaningless thing. Nearly all of the major features that were introduced since last summer were either problematic or uninteresting, while nearly all of the events were a ceaseless grind fest. Of course not everything was bad - the essence toggle and potions slot were nice features, and the "Undefeatables" event is interesting. These however were just not enough to outweigh the negativity of every other event, feature and myriads of problems that the game has. As I mentioned before, the destruction of the crafting, a system that could have so much potential, is the drop that spilled the cup for me. Which is why I (and several others) ceased my support to the game and, if the final release gets published with the crafting in its current useless state, I will just buy something else with the money I would spent on the premium membership and call it a day.
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
  11. Javah

    Javah Forum Veteran

    I did no want to allow myself to doubt. But indeed it seemed so weird from the start. I fear that the designer was me, in disguise. :):D:p

    I think there would be nothing to do against a such kind of nerfing. They might block yellow stats even if you place the items randomly. But of course the penalization have the purpose to ensure that yellow stats would be treated just like the others, and with a comparable output probability.

    Agree with you at 101%. Indeed, in the second image, he showed that should be possible a full recover for the first 2 items, like now, while other items receive some kind of penalization. Just a note: 10% of penalization is too high and it condemn even the best item to become useless after a couple of tries. Maybe 2% per attempt would be more fair ;)
    Last edited: May 27, 2016

    BLASTUP Active Author

    Cube is random , yes but the legendary item u take is not has same stats after coming in ur inventory
    His name is Interpreter ask him if he is a game designer or a fashion designer ........
    yeah after all i think was a bad idea of nerfing items.....thats why i posted it here so u guys can give ur point of view about it, and also give some new idea about it....
  13. Javah

    Javah Forum Veteran

    Oh well I also could tell you that i am the Holy Pope or the President of some republic :p:) For what I knew, such kind of people (CMs and internal staff) would go around using a char with name in a different color, like light blue or yellow... I remember a picture they posted on FB long ago. But of course I do not believe it is a rule.

    I repeat: it would be very serious if a developer really had a similar consideration for the game for which he works. Why do not try to ask to the support if such Interpreter is one of them? I bet you get no answer but...
  14. Armando

    Armando Forum Connoisseur

    Which I still think is quite true... too many people would have farmed legendaries with one good line in PW fatal and then used massive amounts of Ander/gold to destill those lines into OP legendaries.

    Even if if he really is the responsible game designer, I assume that this line is pretty much ripped out of its original context.
    If you e.g. asked whether "he is aware that crafting 2.0 will destroy all the fun left in the game" it would be only natural for him to reply that it doesn't matter if players neglect crafting 1.0 or crafting 2.0...
    The parenthesis that i put in orange obviously is your own interpretation.
    Especially if you had used a negative tone during the discussion, it's quite normal that somebody who is actually passionate about the feature might become sarcastic or say something like "if you don't like it, don't use it".
    I am sure the designer would be convinced that quite a few people will STILL like the feature, and he may be right - at least I am one of them.

    From my personal point of view, crafting 2.0 in its current form (which is most likely to go live next wednesday, as there are only 2 working days left before the sync) is still very useful.
    It will enable us to gradually create really good items starting from green and blue items with single exceptional enchantments.
    It will not require insane amounts of gold, but quite a long time to farm for inputs - the more, the higher your expectations are.

    To reach really significant improvements may be easier for those of us that still don't have that Lvl-55-perfect-3-enchantment-extraordinary (or even legendary), but I think this is good and will reduce the gap between OP "monsters" and normal players.
    Maybe it is more for players who will actually be happy to finally get a 2/2 legendary weapon at all, no matter if the stat lines are at 90 or only 50% of the maximum.

    The idea of crafting items of higher rarity levels out of lower ones now is dominant again, as opposed to "distilling" legendaries only.
    We will not lose anything compared to crafting 1.0; instead we WIN the option to get at least 2 inputs back in case of bad luck.
    No random-based system in any RPG will allow you unlimited re-rolls.

    Some further feedback:

    - I love the workbench animations during crafting and reverting
    - The cost at about 50-55% of the crafting 1.0 price is pretty reasonable now
    - I still think it would be important to not "force" us to accept the crafting result if the workbench window is closed (X button) or in case of a disconnect. Rather, we should still need to have to accept or revert.
    - It seems the initially announced "recipe book" isn't being implemented for now. I don't really mind, documentation in the forum is enough for me.
    BLASTUP likes this.

    BLASTUP Active Author

    That is my point of view , when i asked him that why u removed initial crafting, he said no one uses it already so it does not make big difference if no one uses it now.....
    i was just being sarcastic , not serious.... my bad i dont know much about english language and especially the use of sarcasm
  16. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    I wonder if the players who are stuck on regular maps with loads of white gear drops or those just strong enough to be able to farm painful mode slowly with those average drops will feel the same way.

    Why worry about them right? After all, most of the 2.0 discussion has only been about the strongest players.

    Oh well, I'm sure that these weaker players will just be thrilled that those of us who can farm fatal maps get to improve somewhat quickly while they stagnate on the lower maps.
    Javah likes this.
  17. Javah

    Javah Forum Veteran

    Well congratulations. It is a good attitude being able to see the half-full glass. Maybe you are right, just have no hurry and something good will be crafted sooner or later. Maybe this is the way that things have to go, maybe is true that no game gives unlimited re-rolls on something.

    Frankly I didnt see anything strange on having unlimited attempts in case i pay high amount of gold, like in first version of crafting 2.0. It ensured to have a pretty high result in a significant amount of time anyway: just do a further increase in the price in gold and you can bet that it wouldn't be a joke to get what you are hoping for. But it'd be a concrete chance, sooner or later.

    With crafting 2.0.3... well, I have spent last three afternoons fast farming q3 map1 in mode 3. Of course I gave myself the simple criteria to stay focused on the item that I want more to get, and I melted/sold others even in case of one yellow line (otherwise, a such kind of crafting could fill even a well capable bag, while mine has just 15 free slots like other f2p players have, I presume).

    With my mage I can do solo and quickly a such farm, and I just have to join a good dwarf to be quite a lightning. Just to say that unlike those players that Rhysingstar mentioned above, I do not need to wait for a group, and have also the hope to be not kicked out after I move a few steps. In three days I did uncountable runs and for every run I left the map with about 10-13 green/blue items (sometimes I didnt care to drop all pinks I saw around). These are my modest observations:
    • I got from 0 (quite frequently) to 4 (very rarely, maybe 2-3 times only) yellow lines of bonuses per run (that means from 0 to 4 items with significant stats)
    • I got only one (pink) item with 2 yellow lines within
    • I got only two (blue) items of the type I want with one yellow line of the kind I need, while I didnt find any suitable green
    Ok three days of testing do not give a comprehensive response for sure, but they are 12 hours of game and it begins to be a clue.

    So, based on this, I just multiplied 3 days for the number of green/blue items that I presume (for what I read here on) could allow me to obtain a "simple" 2/4 legendary of the type I want (actually mine is just a pretty strong 1/4 leg) with the exact kind and a sufficient quality of bonuses on it (if the more viable perspective is to have only 2 yellow bonuses, then all the 4 bonuses must be of the kind I want). I also took in count that the new workbench seems to have a strong predilection for the bonuses on the items placed in 3rd and 4th slot (those that you will surely lose after crafting).

    The result says that I will be busy for the years to come o_O. I just wait that BP offers me a salary for that.

    Also, last but not least, these days of fast farming were oddyng improductive. I dropped an average of 3-4 legendaries and a handful of small gems in a whole afternoon. While the latest full runs I did in q3 fatal, just few days before, always gave me some legendary per run (very very rarely with one yellow line but up to 3 leg per run, excluding those of Heredur of course) not to mention gems in quantities. Of course it is not, but it sounds like the game was penalizing me for the repetitive farming in map 1, during which I collected everything I found. But this is what I can do having 15 slots only.

    From all this, it is not that my enthusiasm is sky high. Maybe I have to train myself to see a little less the half-empty glass? Really, because I do not want to be the one that complains for nothing.

    I do not doubt that these players will touch the sky with a finger. Anyway they could start from crafting a little over-the-average items found in mode 1-2, in order to improve. Also they do not need now to care so much about crafting, still having all the chances to find in the maps or from some boss what could be useful for them. I do not think they need to craft yellow lines in order to be happy.
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
  18. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    The only good thing about the second image is that I'd be able to melt the items after a failed crafting as opposed to losing the glyphs. The first wasn't even that good since the stats on the second item (which is currently protected) would drop also and that is what was really bad in my PoV.
  19. taketh

    taketh Regular

    I am a bit late to the party, but the nerf is ridiculous. It is typical of BP, they make something, and instead of fixing it they just hack it without too much thought.

    My maths could be wrong, but given the revert function is useless, it takes 20 green/blue items with one good line each to craft an EO with 2 good lines. It then takes 16 eos with 2 good lines each to craft a legendary with with 3 good lines. That is 320 green/blue items. It then thanks 16 legendaries, each with 3 good lines each, to craft a legendary with 4 good lines. That is 5120 green/blue items. It is a joke. Not to mention the ander and gold it would take to get the sockets and crafting.

    I was planning to use crafting 2.0 for everything. I play a dwarf, i have fairly good items, yet, there are many dwarfs that are much stronger than me. It must mean they already have the perfect god like items. Why would i spend all that time and gold making new health boots that can have 1400+ when i already have 1250 ones? It is fairly obvious that crafting a legendary with 4 lines is out of the picture anyway.

    It is possible to see improvements, i have 20% attack speed gloves, if i pick up 8% attack speed gloves, i could craft 24%, is it really worth it for me? I should just give up, melt all items, gamble everything to get ander, and just buy portals to farm PW bosses. I might pick up 32% attack speed gloves if i kill heredur enough times, lol.

    @Armando I could have read wrong, but you seem to be advocating for the nerf. I am curious to what class you play, and what gears you have, because i dont see how the new crafting system is useful to anyone. I doubt someone who doesnt play a lot will have the patience to craft such gears, and the people that do, must have already have the epic gears by now.

    BP has messed up crafting 2.0, because it was afraid the effect it would have on pvp. Well why not fix pvp then??? You have players with 50 honor points, 25% more damage, and 25% damage reduction? It is designed to be unbalanced. Calculate how much time it would take to get 40 honor points, i dont know how people do it. There cant be that many people playing hours a day, for years?

    If BP actually used the feedback, read all the comments expressing what a joke it is and come up with a better plan. How about letting us re-roll the random line, so at least it is easier for us to get EO with good lines instead of 2.

    I am too late, i will wait for crafting 3.0.

    I imagine a lot of people will be using the new system, not realising how improbable it is to craft what they are looking for. These people are just getting ripped off.
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
    Troneck86 likes this.
  20. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Funny you should bring up math. Your math needs a lot of work, but lucky for you, I've already done it.

    Here is everything you need to know about Crafting 2.0.3 (which is what I call the nerfed version we are getting soon).

    Now, if you want to see just how bad it is compared to 2.0.2 (which is the first on that they actually released on test server), read all about that one here.