For some bright mind (the proof that something is wrong)

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by kavekanis, Mar 21, 2017.

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  1. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Before start talking nonsense ... first you have to know how the damage is being counted in the arena.
    The whole damage you deal per shot is being taken into account.
    Ie. if you deal 20K damge blow to a player with 5K HP and a player with 30K HP is the same damage of 20K.
    The first player would be dead instantly while the second one would survive. Just for giving plain example I would not take into account resistance, armor and block/reduction.
    That midget has lost the battle ... ONLY because he is a new player and still don't know all the secrets and finesses in this game.
    If a new player (ranger) was in my place ... he would have lost it instantly.
    Now ... we are having an example of an 5 year old hard core player playing a ranger class ... and a new player playing a midget.
    Do you now get the difference?
    As I said previously regarding damage counting in the arena ... that midget had a low HP. I am also having low HP according to nowadays standards. However ... he has something like 8-9K HP while I have 24K HP ... and he managed to deal a headshot with +24K damage.
    Also have in mind that I am probably having more points invested into damage reduction (PVP tree) than him. Without that reduction the damage he would deal to me would be even greater.
    As for DSO Cam ... whoever is using it ... s/he is breaking the basic game rules ... and they are risking a permanent ban.

    As for the other parts you quoted.
    You are talking to 3 of the most knowledgeable players in this forum ... have that in mind. One of them can make a simple "error" or oversight when expressing his thoughts ... but all three of them making a same "misperception" is impossible.
    I do agree with you on some point ... like ie. stealing features from Diablo and putting them into DSO.
    However ... that whole skill's damage comparison is out of place.
    Not a single class ... except midgets ... can use more than one skill at same time.
    Exception are:
    - wolves/tree and bird for rangers
    - guardian and singularity for SWs
    - dragonhide and a banner for DKs
    but their usage is trivial compared to midgets'. Midgets can use several turrets at same time and shooting with their toon. Not to mention that those turrets are having:
    - tick per second damage
    - they are spammable and return back chunk of steam when out ... while in same time the natural steam regeneration is not prevented. None of the other classes can do that.
    - Not a single class except midgets has a privilege to get increased damage because of attack speed ... while in same time increasing the tick per second rate.
    - etc ... have no time for more.

    One plain example was a fight few days ago in 6v6. A midget hidden behind a wall was spamming turrets at the bridge. Not even very strong tanks could pass the bridge.
    PvP was destroyed with Lor'Tac expansion ... now with this latest expansion ... it has been destroyed beyond repair.

    Bollocks ... and we all know that ... the new direction is ultimate P2W game.
  2. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    You will be surprised what dwarf has to offer in the runs. Poor debuffs... give me that poor tesla and take my debuff)

    4 dwarfs create a matrix of damage covering whole screen and only need tank to click 1 button.

    Every run ends with the boss. And while every class can do the run easily, bosses are the different story.

    To a tank, it doesn't matter who would kill the mobs on the way to the boss. It does, however, matter, if the team will kill the boss fast and he would be protected. Only dwarfs can offer this.

    Who cares about the normal maps? Whole game is now to get uniques, and again, and again until the stats are yellow. And also get cores for crafting.
    EhtovK, Lazycrazy and Novadude like this.
  3. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    What should I say... the more you talk the more the title you self entitled isn't deserved.
    There's just 1 skill from dwarfs that could have 1-shotted you: heavy shot (which has 325% multiplier) with a base dmg around 9.5k (which ain't that much on a glass cannon build) and your DMG reduction around 40%.
    You got hit TWICE by a skill that has 1" channeling.
    There isn't a single dwarf in this game that could get 45k dmg BASE DMG in PVP and 1-shot you with quick shot... not a chance. If you think those are numbers you can see in PVP, move on there's nothing to see here.

    There are 2 other options:
    - he was using an heavy crit based build (with the new adornaments and onyxes you could get 20% crit rate) in that case you got hit TWICE by a lucky crit and this doesn't represent the real world anyway
    - you got hit by a dwarf with full Q7 set which spammed randomly a rocket for the buff (and you didn't notice it) and was using heavy shot BUFFED by the Q7 set (but this is basically the first case described)

    Both the cases, you weren't facing a noob, exactly the opposite: fact are that he wasn't a total noob as you are tring to say and well, you got hit twice by an heavy shot... every time I got 1shot by that I can only say: "how lucky!"

    You assume he was a noob because of his low rank... while he could have been a dedicated player h24 who was doing PvP only for the dailyes.
    I've seens centurions 1-shot me on ANY class and this proves only 2 thing:
    - PvP in DSO is 1-shot fest
    - ranks do not matter as much as you think

    On the other side Mages have 8/sec regen, RA have 6/sec SM have 3/sec regen, do you know how much it takes to get beck 50 steam? 16,6 sec (10 sec if you dismantel the turret), that's why they aren't spammable as you assume and that's why moving fast into maps cuts short their resources but you obviusly don't consider that a problem while I do when the other option to farm higher mod is to farm FASTER mods (but this will open another funny paragraph: what's the mod best to farm?... It's strange that you already noticed that most of the times it's better to farm in painful at higher speed that slower speed in higher mods but this doesn't matter when it comes to the "dwarf's affair").
    To spam 7 turrets, you need dedicated builds, 90% of the dwarfs out there do use only 2 machine gun and most of them use tesla only for bosses as they won't have enought resouces to spam the turrets in decent time.

    Ok... no. This is total BS.
    Attack speed won't increase the number of tick of ANY turret. Point.
    It will increase dmg of machingun turrets (as a direct multiplier so, this is quite dumb as it doesn't follow the breakpoints rule) but that's the only one and it doesn't increase any tick per second. I can post you hundreds of videos about this.
    Ticks are always 0.3" (there's another game that uses this schema and in that game DoT are normalised and include crit dmg in the formula, you know what game it is?)
    On the other side you can't stack 2 tesla, not even if they come from different players.
    Do RA have to worry if there's another player using EA in the party? SW do care if another one is using fireball?
    Yes no more time for me as well.

    When you have a class that can endless spam an 80% Armor break and another with chain CC/taunt who cares about a tesla that you can use only in 4 boss fights out of ten?

    The only actual debuff used by dwarfs comes from C14 Rocket (armor/res break) which has embedded the only sort of CC (stun) and has 30" cooldown (that you can reduce using the "7 turrets build" and Q7 gear, not something that "any noob" can do... but keep saying that "any noob" can do anything with a dwarf).

    The tesla buff comes handy only in the boss fight and probably you didn't understand what I said in my post or more probably you haven't readen it at all.

    Long story short:
    Make farming maps more rewarding, dwarfs won't be needed as much.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2017
    xXxTroublexXx likes this.
  4. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Okay, guess you want to get it all lost in some irrelevant conversation. Here is bottom line for you.

    1. Dwarf is the only class that can ignore crit, onyxes and enjoy both sapphires and runes for insane speed, enjoy the easiest to build setup. Period.
    2. Dwarf with the DPS comparable to the mage, will outclass that mage by 100% at least in terms of time and resources need to kill the boss. Period.
    3. Dwarf is the only class capable of dealing insane damage without being engaged in a fight whatsoever, i.e. running all the time eliminating the risk of receiving dmg. Period.
    4. 99% of public chat are requests for dwarfs and tanks. Period.
    5. Dwarf is the only class with Tesla-like protection. Period.

    Thus, this class is ridiculously unbalanced comparing to mages and archers.

    And as I said before, bosses are the most important aspect of PVE taking into account new crafting system with focus on uniques, cores etc. Tanks will naturally prefer team of 4 dwarfs that will kill the boss much faster, saving the tank resources and time. Having 1 mage or 1 archer for the run is not important whatsoever, as 4 dwarfs will smash through the maps with their 'skills' as easy as 3+1 would.

    Mages and archers are left with that 1 slot at most, but usually they don't get it either. Mage/Archer can also choose to feel an idiot begging for a slot, despite investing years of farming into his char, and beating the dwarf in both offense and defense. Nevertheless, even with such a shameful behavior and no matter his stats, mage/archer will not be invited.

    It is what it is. You can deny it, because you are affraid of nerf, let it be. I have nothing else to tell you and don't plan to. Enjoy your final remark. Gl.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
    _Baragain_, trakilaki, EhtovK and 5 others like this.
  5. _Mastah_

    _Mastah_ Forum Greenhorn

    I saw a dwarf killing heredur on infernal today in like 40 seconds lol..used around 150 pink essence for the kill.A ranger/mage cant even take down 10% of hp with that amount now lol...Its BS whats happening right now and the dev team doesnt even care by the looks of it.When are the rangers and mages going to get a boost in strenght? How many players have to rage on forums in order for things to happen in this game? Dragan event might start in a few months and we will have dwarfs doing 30 sec kills while mages and rangers will have to beg for party and spend 30 minutes per kill.

    This is the video i was talking about.Good dwarf..well built...explains perfectly whats wrong with the game right now and why the forum rage and so many people quiting all over the servers.

    At least lower the MF cost for uniques and pristine/soul cores for rangers and mages if they are left outside the party/game.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  6. multitoonz

    multitoonz Forum Great Master

    You're all upset over the ONE skill a dwarf has that is useful in PvE. Machine guns. If that's not pathetic I don't know what is. Nevermind the array of better, more versatile skills DSO gave the other 3 classes for use in PvE and PvP, nope, this is all about some players who got offended because a dwarf has ONE skill which allows it to kill faster than any other class.
    You poor poor thing you. Guess all the money you spent on your toon was a waste then since you think it can't compete. Better delete it and start all over again from scratch. Maybe build a dwarf next time.
  7. thouvou000

    thouvou000 Forum Expert

    Dwarves are freaking broken in pve and noone, not one, can deny that, or i should say noone except for dwarves crybabies,who are not content with being broken in pve and they are trying to make dwarves sound weak in pvp but equally strong in pve to the rest of the classes, whereas they are op.

    Dwarves were always strong, with r155 they became the best pve class and with r185 they became by far the best, broken pve class. I saw littlelady on test server soloing infernal grimmag in 15 seconds. If you think thats logical and any other class has any chance to do the same, then i suppose you have brain issues, severe ones. Dwarves have one pve skill? Tesla turrets are not considered farming tools, i suppose. Tactical turrets are not considered good vs bosses right? They only keep refilling your missing Steam.Any idea how many seconds a ranger has to wait to refill his concetration even with sigris armor, 15 seconds(13 with the skill setup).

    I heard from someone here that dwarves have only One skill useful for PVE. Do you need more? This one is so broken you dont need more(although teslas and tactical turrets are useful as well). Money or not dwarves are strong. I main ranger but i have dwarf too so i know all about dwarves both in pve and pvp. Really now, how can you keep defending a class like this, saying its not op, when it has the easiest build path, which is straight damage?Did anyone mention what happened with r185? Dwarves got 5 additional rune slots for attack speed, while the other classes, when they are using 2h weapons they have to choose what they equip between crit dmg runes and attack speed runes.Thats another advantage for dwarves, who dont need crit runes and not only that but 5 additional free gem slots for runes on their adornment, in which previously dwarves had sapphires.

    Many dwarf players have the "right" to cry about dwarves in pvp. However, you cannot keep defending this class in pve. No Sir, no you wont. Although, you may have some "right" to cry about pvp, thats not entirely right. "Dks, mages and rangers can one shot anyone in pvp"many dwarves would say and they would not be at fault.The difference in pvp and pve too is that dwarves have consistent damage, whereas the other classes have high burst and allin skills. That does not make dwarves weaker in pvp, or i should say not that much weaker, because when they have sick amount of damage and spam tactical and mechanical turrets, the other class wont even get near them to use their skills, simply because they will be dead before that just by trying to get the right angle or path to attack the dwarves, who all they have to do is get the steam refills by their tactical turrets and spam mechanical turrets.I wont even mention how easy pvp is for shield users dwarves.

    Dwarves may not be like the other 3 classes in pvp, but you cannot call them weak at all. I still have nightmares of dwarves in arenas before they "nerfed" tactical turrets. However, the gap between this class and the others in pve is too wide, while in pvp its not so much.

    P.S: Sebastian has currently one of the best mages i have seen since r185 and i dont want him to be called "pathetic", especially by a low being, who is playing dwarf, which even my 10 year nephew can play if he wants too. Show more respect for players who have played this game for longer time and they are more experience than you.Besides, Baragain, Trakilaki,Yogo,Wigger and many other experienced and strong players adopt similar opinions like those of Sebastian's, who i dont know btw, but i find him almost 100% correct.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  8. BurdushSM

    BurdushSM Forum Apprentice

    And if it is successfully nerfed dwarfs (which is the current trend), these experienced players will become even more excellent, right? I respect only the players who are dedicated to their character, regardless of which class and who don't waste time on nerfing someone. Yes, I play a dwarf from the start and I die in the arena as everyone else if the opponent is better. I play together in a group with all classes in PvE, without discrimination. Each class has its good and bad qualities and every game have a good and bad players, as well as those with a lot of money. This is just a game, real life is outside of the game.
  9. multitoonz

    multitoonz Forum Great Master

    You sir are hilarious. Firstly let me tell you I've been in game since BETA/OPEN BETA. I was here long before you. I have played every class multiple times, seen EVERY patch both good and BAD watched the game go from fun to a chore to pure pay to win over MANY YEARS time. Respect? There's a bully mentality in forums and woe to those who oppose the self appointed "experts" and their OPINIONS on how to play the game lol.
    They are all cash players now except Traki and he gets everything he wants for free from DSO because of the wiki. I remember him railing daily in forums about the inbalance between P2P and F2P when he was the King of the F2P. And when jesters were introduced...LMAO, you should have been here for the crying about unfair buff gems. I've seen every forum participant come and go, every Mod, BA, I've seen the game change so many times it's hilarious. The difference between myself and your list of so called experts is I don't need to nor want to chase forum titles.
    SO yes, I say again, I do know the whole complexity of each and every class as I have take the time to actually play them each full time. From lvl 1 to end game what ever stage of DSO it was.
    SO ON THAT NOTE. DSO designed the SM class the way it is. It used to be much weaker but they balanced it to match the other 3 classes in game play capabilities. Just because of one skill the sky is falling lol. If a ranger builder or sw builder thinks his her toon is outclassed by a mediocre dwarf they need to get over it and worry about what they personally can or cannot contribute to a group setting rather than what another class can or cannot.
    I am so loking forward to the 5th class whatever it wil be. At one point it too will be targeted for having some unfair advantage over another class. It always happens. Happened when rangers were introduced ages ago, it wil happen again.
  10. Erebus

    Erebus User

    I'm going to jump in briefly just to warn you all once, keep the thread civil, we've always been open for everyone to discuss a vast variety of topics, including the "my class is weak and the rest are OP" ones, as long as they are well thought and have solid arguments, and most importantly, as long as they are polite, the fact that you disagree with what the person before you said, doesn't give you the right to be rude.

    I'm gonna paraphrase my fellow mod Sunlight here, this is an internet forum, people might disagree with your opinions and present valid proof/argument against them, if you can't cope with that fact, internet forums are not the place for you.

    I'll allow the discussion to go on, as long as you abide to the rules and stick to the request I made, any further shows of disrespect are going to be penalized accordingly and the thread will be locked, best regards.
  11. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    This conversation is pointless, Erebus. Those posting on the subject were pretty clear on what they are upset with. The other part of the audience will defend themselves. Whatever they say or we say, the facts are clear to everyone who is not high.

    Do you want people continue 'he said she said he is OP he is not' kind of thing?

    And since we have never heard a word about BP recognizes the problem, which they made only worse with recent update, no even a word from a mod saying the topic has be raised before the Dev team, there is no point to continue.

    You guys, and the dev, have all the data and plenty of arguments across multiple threads. Guess you guys are not blind and can open world chat, look at the groups, look what classes have everything they need from the q-world and which dont. Hope you also understand which classes are playing, and which are just enjoying their 'skills' doing nothing but running and collecting rewards.

    If you guys know and understand all of that, guess you know what to do. If not, there is no point to continue here anyway.

    Everyone but 1 class hates this game. That's a bottom line for you.

    Now go do your mod-y thing please, and get us some feedback. I heard there was some communication on the problem on German forum. Unfortunately, that's not the language I speak. So I will, and others im sure, appreciate any feedback from the Dev team on the subject.

    Everything else has negative priority comparing to this problem.
    UndergroundKiller likes this.
  12. Erebus

    Erebus User

    No, that's why I said we want and need good arguments, founded in (mostly) measurable data (time, resources, etc.), not in "how I feel".

    And who told you otherwise?, we have compiled and sent everyone's feedback several times, and the answer that we have is the same you've heard several times as well "the team is aware and is looking into it", we do not ignore your feedback, rather, we gather the well founded one (which is very helpful) and pass it on, but you gotta understand that changing that answer is not up to us moderators, what I can assure you, is that we do our part, and that when we fight for the well being of this game, we fight in pro of the 4 classes equally, there is no room for personal or emotional bias when you're in charge of sending the feedback, so we stick to the (mostly) measurable facts.

    Rest assured, when there's an answer from the developers regarding class balance, you all will be informed in a proper and timely manner, best regards.
  13. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master

    Please show me a video where a mage or ranger can kill heredur infernal in 30 seconds if you consider that game is balanced.Please show me a mage/ranger/warrior killing 1 infernal heredur with 150 purple and not 1k.We can discuss after u come with some serious proofs.Dunno if u realise but that dwarf in the video that ive shown could kill infernal bosses with red in under 30 sec using less than 100 essence while the other 3 classes existing in the game right now struggle few minutes to get the kill done and use 10 times more essence per kill than the SM.If you consider this to be fair and balanced then well...these no point in continue this conversation lol

    Players have the right to be offended when 2 classes are left outside the game right now because they are just too weak to match a SM.Those who spent a lot of cash on these 2 classes cant do crap now because a SM even with worse items and gems can easily get them kicked for the party.As u probably saw, players dont ask for dwarfs to be nerfed, they ask for the other classes to get a boost in strenght so they could compete with the SMs.

    Have u ever considered what will happen when infernal 8 or above will make it in the game?SMs doing 1 min kills and rest of the classes doing 30 minutes kills.Have you considered the fact that mages and rangers have to farm MF for the uniques and pristine/soul cores via maps because no one invites them to party anymore while dwarfs can easily farm pristine/soul cores/uniques?What will happen when dragan event starts? SMs will do 60 kills / hour while the other classes do 4-5 ?

    A top ranger/mage cant even match with a top SM.And this is the truth.
  14. EhtovK

    EhtovK Old Hand

    You beat me to the request, I was about to ask exactly the same thing. It's too naive to think same numbers on the character screen mean the same real and effective damage output across classes

    Here's the problem with the developers though..., a few months ago, we all were complaining about yet another class imbalance issue, which was essence usage being too high for RA, relatively high for SW (depends on the build) and low for SM (regardless of the build), so, a lot of us asked for the essence usage to be mitigated for the other classes, especially for RA, and what the developers came back with?, an increased usage of essences for dwarves, yay(?).

    I'll repeat myself here, I don't want a nerf for SM, I want a buff for SWs and RAs PvE wise, but given my prior example, we'll most likely see a slight nerf to dwarves (because BP, that's why) instead of improvements for the other classes. We've offered plenty of sugestions and solutions to this for months, to no avail, we suggested the % of the base damage applied to skills was increased in PvE, just like the different durations for stuns when applied to players vs when applied to monsters, essence usage mitigation, which would encourage other classes to use better quality of essences, and so on, but unfortunately, I guess we'll have to sit and wait yet again, and brace ourselves for whatever "solution" they come up with.

    I was thinking maybe a "charge" system would be nice, just like the one lightning monsters have, consecutive hits of the same skill could escalate the damage done to-monsters-only, let's say a skill with 200% damage would deal 220% in the next hit, 240%-260%-280% up to 300%, and it would work in PvE only, thus leaving PvP untouched and giving skills like Frozen sphere, lightning strike, explosive arrow, precision shot and such a renewed use.

    And before I go, one of the things that makes SW "good" are it's crowd control skills, but what the fruit?, lately a damn lot of monsters are being immune to everything, frost wind, frost nova, mind control's taunt, guardian's taunt, frost effect from FS, stuns from lightning skills, armor break and slow down from singularity (like the technicus champion mobs in the mini-event map), so where's my so called "crowd control advantages" as a SW?, and yes, I know they most likely were immune to the other classes taunts, armor breaks and what nots (except battle frenzy and marking from RA), but again, all those crowd control skills are supposed to be what makes a SW a SW, what are we without them?
    Zed and trakilaki like this.
  15. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    I already learned to solo q1, q3, q4, q7 and today didn't plenty sigi infernal kills without dying. Sigi takes me 4-5 minutes. Got the whole set, two rings and two enigmas. Dwarf with less DPS, however, will take him down in 2 minutes. Not even mentioning dwarf will have a tank, while mage has to go solo.

    Mortis, on the other side, is impossible to solo as a mage. Tanks decline to go there without dwarfs, and most tanks and dwarfs have everything they need from mortis already.

    Yesterday I got lucky to be invited by a friend tank to go there, but he failed to find few dwarfs, and said 'sorry man, no dwarfs no party, next time'. Even with my insane damage, (plus 50% crit dmg to what I posted before), I guess I will never get there.
  16. X-VII

    X-VII Forum Apprentice

    What I don't like about the Dwarfs mostly their turrets in PvP, is that sometimes their projectiles are invisible.. When you have low armor and Hp this can be a huge disadvantage because of the invisible damage overtime. Sometimes you'll realize it too late and sometimes get surprised that you're already dead in Pvp.

    Well I remember was novice KotO back then facing an ardent recruit dwarf. His char is favorable. I won against him without hitting me once.. Second battle I realize his damage is too Op, and he beat me.
    trakilaki likes this.
  17. EhtovK

    EhtovK Old Hand

    I know what you're talking about, but, fortunately it's not a "bug" (as far as my knowledge goes), I've had the same scenario while doing PvE before with my level 38 SM, example: I'd deploy a machine gun turret and it'd appear it's not shooting at all, but the damage is being dealt to mobs, I can see the numbers popping although I don't see the ammo animation, this is nothing but lag, it will happen to me at the same time I experience a random rubberbanding episode or a peak usage of my bandwith.
  18. UndergroundKiller

    UndergroundKiller Forum Expert

    One of my guild mates using only that "ONE skill" does more than 10k dmg per hit with green ess, multiply it x2 (deploying 2 tourrets) and it become 22k+ damage per "hit".
    That's with green and without herald buff (with wich he can reach 26k max damage with green ess).
    Guess which class is him? Yeah, a dwarf.

    When I play in team with him bosses mode3 die so fast I can't even cast wolves 2 times.

    Do you think that all of this is fair?
  19. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    What the hell are you talking about? I play and get everything on my own ... just like any other player in this game. I CAN get anything at TS ... IF I ask for. But even there I am not asking anything ... except in rare occasions when I have to make a Wiki article and I can't get the items easily or can't get them at all. Like those cores for the crafting guide. At live server ... in 5 years of playing I have got only 2-3 freebies (costume or mount). The last one was Flying Carpet mount (which makes me so OP) for testing 24/7 entire week at test server ... while neglecting my ranger and having no time to play at all ... while you were all farming and playing the game.
    Yes I was ... i still am ... and will always be F2P. And yes ... the imbalance between P2W and F2P players is even bigger ATM. Yes I was in fight with P2P players here in forums ... for which I have got infraction points by the mods. Coincidence or not ... it was an argument where you were involved in. :eek:
    No ... let me tell you the difference :)
    Those people are not afraid/lazy to express their opinion. Also they have a goal ... without setting a goal you can't do anything.
    I can't speak in other player's name ... so I will speak only for myself.
    I am the same in real life ... i fight for my believes and for my goals. Even if my life is at stake.
    Not everyone is a born leader ...


    As for the midgets ... oh yes ... they will be nerfed. The question is ... whether it will come soon or after the new class introduction.

    As I said earlier (on contrary to Mr. Wise-man's assumption)
    The rank doesn't matter. But you can spot a new player at once.
    How? Very easy they don't know all the tricks as the old players know. His biggest mistake was ... he don't know that that fence in the right is stopping the bullets from his mechanical turret. So he thought I would run away if he cast turrets in front of the barrier.
    Besides ... I know almost every older player in the game ... but not him. And it is not an alt character.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  20. Zed

    Zed Forum Pro

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