HUD for monsters health bars

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by pydragons, Apr 4, 2015.

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  1. pydragons

    pydragons Padavan

    For a long time game developers include HUD for monsters health bars in their hack and slash games for various benefits, as shown in these 2 games which names I wont mention to avoid adverstiment.

    [link to images removed]

    This HUD function brings strategy to killing group of monsters and targeting a specific monster, or pulling, luring or pushing him in different directions to position him near other important targets or low life monsters in that group of monsters, while tracking the health bars of the rest of group.

    There are many more benefits to this function and that is why AAA games are implementing them in their games. 2015 will bring two more similliar highly anticipated games that seem to use the exact same method.

    Usually this HUD will appear after pressing or holding a button and the health bars of all visible units will be displayed, usually above their heads.
    Possible hotkeys might be CTRL or ALT, the above games uses holding one of these buttons as their hotkey.
     
    Last edited by moderator: Apr 4, 2015
  2. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador

    Hey,

    First of all I wanted to let you know this is a wonderful idea and it would improve the game quite a bit. Thank-you.

    Sadly though I would think there would be lag due to the fact there would be required a ton of server updates. Offline games benefit from all the values to be rendered locally where as online games don't have this luxury. Advances are being made everyday so hey you just never know.
     
  3. pydragons

    pydragons Padavan

    Im a programer and I know this function is not costly at all. Do you get lag when you press CTRL to view your drop on the ground? The HUD is pretty much the same. Why would it require a ton of server update, come on.
    There is a reason games are including this, it doesnt harm the servers and is actualy valuable HUD that provides strategic to killing a group of monsters.
     
  4. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador

    Doubt you are what you say you are. A simple flow chat will tell you ever single mob would have to have an update. Even if the mob is not hit. Every single hit has to have an update. When items drop you get one update. If you show a mob's hp and there are 10 then you need 10 updates per 50ms so that is 200 updates per second. Now granted I do not know what the severs TTL is nor what client side update speed is but if the values where local the refresh is at 2 ms so 50ms is a shot in the dark.

    P.S. CTRL key is client side update the values are already on the client memory and therefore you can use the CTRL even when your lagging out. Prof of this can be seen when you click on something and it will not pick up until there is a sever update.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2015
  5. pydragons

    pydragons Padavan

    When you do an AOE the server do all the calculations needed to decrement all dammaged monsters health. The server is allready doing this, but you are thinking it will lag. It only needs to print them, and rendering these values on the screen is the cheapest.
    You are not running some serious big O notation algorithms, this is pure substraction that it is performed anyways, as you see without any lags.

    If it was that costly, dev's wouldnt use it. And if it is costly, lets say it takes not only the monster armor and block, etc, but 1000 more variables, then there is a way to manage the calculations speed for a good playable expirience.
    Alot of games uses exactly this feature, browser games including.

    Now I dont want to talk about compiling speeds, but rather discuss the idea, please.
     
  6. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador

    When we are talking one person updating the aoe values I can tell you there is lag in the update. I have had to wait for the update for the damage. If you see other posts about in pvp when you kill someone and the the hp but that person is not dead. This is the client side prediction and the sever positioning being wrong. The aoe is still only one person update if someone else aoe you can see mobs still up but the are dead.

    There is even the ghost kill bug where you can not move bc mobs are in front of you. Nothing to hit so you have to wait for an update.

    P.S.50ms is not compiling speed but update cycle. You have to update the hp bar every x. Just like wait for v sync. 60 times per second so that is 16.66 ms refresh rate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2015
  7. pydragons

    pydragons Padavan

    What I'm trying to say is that the calculations needed for this HUD function are allready writen in, it only needs to be displayed. Are you saying that rendering a simple rect's would couse the game to lag?
    They do not have to write additional formulas or algorithms, rather they have to convert the real numbers to be displayed as a perecentages on a rectangular bar. They are allready doing this for a single bar, convert all and render the rect's.
    If you think this will couse lag, head over to Programmers StackExchange and post a thread asking if it can couse any lag (it will) and how to reduce it to un-noticable. Post the link here so everyone can follow, including BP.

    If you see the lag you described then I'm not surprised, BP are simply amateurs. The fact that browser/client games are doing it for years without a single delay, proves it.

    PS: Do you realize the huge data the server processes? This is nothing dude, do not try being smart if you dont have any programming knowledge, the function can be extremly cheap to the server's, even badly written!
     
  8. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador

    First never said the server has to process data but more data is needed in the packets. And yes even 1 mobs hp can be lagged. If you read as much about this game as I have you will see their market strategy is the have less data requirements and are marketing this fact. I am saying the update for the hp for each mob would need to be sent and that would increase data. Increased data means increased lag.
     
  9. pydragons

    pydragons Padavan

    As a programmer I can tell that these data packets are allrady being send, with or without the feature I purpose.
    If there is lag between receiving these packets, then the server engineers must work better.
    As the data being allready transfered from the client to the server and back, the only thing we need to do is display it on the screen.
    They do not have to put more data in the packets, each monster HP is allready sent to the server and back for update.
     
  10. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador

    Not all games are build the same. And I am quite certain the hp values are not sent in every packet. I have had times where I clicked on an attack and found the hp value less after I got to him. There are times where I get a more with no hp bar at all.

    This would be a question for Rick Taylor.
     
  11. pydragons

    pydragons Padavan

    Pretty sure he wont answer, or any of the dev's.
    Anyways, the function can be coded without additional lag. This is what multiple games are allready doing for years... without lag.

    The real question comes if the designer see's a potential in adding this feature. I do.
     
  12. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    A Software Engineer, a Hardware Engineer and a Departmental Manager were on their way to a meeting. They were driving down a steep mountain road when suddenly the brakes on their car failed. The car careened almost out of control down the road, bouncing off the crash barriers ... until it miraculously ground to a halt scraping along the mountainside. The car's occupants, shaken but unhurt, now had a problem: they were stuck halfway down a mountain in a car with no brakes.
    What were they to do?
    "I know," said the Departmental Manager ... "Let's have a meeting, propose a Vision, formulate a Mission Statement, define some Goals, and by a process of Continuous Improvement find a solution to the Critical Problems ... and we can be on our way."
    "No, no," said the Hardware Engineer, "That will take far too long, and besides, that method has never worked before. I've got my Swiss Army knife with me and in no time at all I can strip down the car's braking system ... isolate the fault, fix it, and we can be on our way."
    "Well," said the Software Engineer, "Before we do anything ... I think we should push the car back up the road and see if it happens again."

    On topic
    Simplicity makes this game great.
    Please inform those other games makers.
     
    Darwarren likes this.
  13. pydragons

    pydragons Padavan

    Are you talking about simplicity of the game as a gameplay and it's mechanics/features etc, or code simplicity?
    Are you up for the purpossed idea or not? If you still wonder what exactly the HUD health bar's are I can explain it in more depth couse of the deleted shot's I uploaded.
     
  14. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Did I mentioned code? No.
    My comment is clear ... we don't need that.
     
  15. pydragons

    pydragons Padavan

    HUD's makes games simpler, they are designed to, even the name points it.
    Why you should hover your mouse over 10 monsters to see their health and decide which one is with the lowest when you can hold a single button and see all of the monsters health bars.
    Now if you wonder why you would want to the kill the monster with the lowest health in the group is another topic of the main topic and we can talk about if you want.

    I see you are intelligent man and you actually write thoughtfull post's, so can you say why you think this HUD wont make the game simpler?
     
  16. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Because no one needs it. This game is not so complicated ... there are few types of monsters on each map. Every type of monster has same HP as the other monsters. No need to look for the weakest monster ... by time everyone gets the picture what HP have the monsters.
    Best way to kill the monsters is to gather them around you as much as you can .. and then killing them with fewer hits.
    In the game where continual grinding is requirement you don't need some "special analysis" on monsters ... you need fast kill.
    The faster you clear the map the more resources you collect.

    The other point is lag. Lag is not only connection dependent but hardware and software as well.
    It will greatly encumber the user's system.
    And the goal is ... the lesser the requirements are the more players can play.
    This is Browser game after all.
     
  17. pydragons

    pydragons Padavan

    Just like MegaNuker said, this would improve the gameplay.
    We dont talk about types of monsters. When grouped with other players, everyone focuses different targets.
    Now if this feature is introduced, people will have a view of every HP bar on the field, therefore the more skilled players will start to focus more on a single target, then the next and next.. every monster queueing for a burst of 5 man dammage on his body, dead in a second.
    This will surely make running maps faster than before and this is proven by multiple games that I can say but it would get deleted, just like the pictures.
    The HUD not only intoduces health analysis but also gives you a way to kill group of monsters faster, specialy when grouped with good players.
    Why would you focus mob A which have 50% health, while mob B next to him has 15% health. Mob B will attack you for all the time you kill mob A and for the time you kill mob B. You will receive more dammager and slower killing time. (We are not talking for invincible DK's that hardly care how much mobs are attacking him)
    Thus decreasing the time you spend in the dungeon, killing.

    Regarding the lag, as in my previous post's about server packets being send/received. The lag shall not increase or decrease. In fact it will stay the same becouse all the code needed for these network packets is allready written and is currently used in the game, in the background, as many server side stuff.
    If you talk about GPU lag. The graphics are simple rectangles with the most basic form of animation (algorithm wise).
    Actualy rendering these rect's is a ton less costly than rendering one more monster on you screen.

    There is a reason why HUD's are usefull, there are books about them. HUD's give advantages that are far beyong tracking something on you screen, actually while doing so, you improve many things in the short and the long run of your gameplay.
     
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