My version of Q4 for dks

Discussion in 'Creative Corner' started by Phyrix, Jun 14, 2020.

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  1. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Baron

    This set literally comes in at 1410% base per second yes only 30% lower base per second than q7 however, it can kept up for much longer and as such is slightly stronger and as such does not break q7 but allows for dks to have another option in the game.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    This version though will scale a lot better with essences as opposed to q7 older essences atleast where q7 might have an edge with elemental essences
    gbit likes this.
  2. gbit

    gbit Forum Veteran

    Yes, in this version Q4 damage will be effective with elemental essences but in a certain way it becomes a copy of Q7... They need to rethink how elemental essences work (in general) and for Q4 what is really needed to be an option is only an attack speed bonus like Q7.
    In this way the two sets remain with their own mechanic and different game play, but with a substantial equal DPS (more or less, surely more than now).
    ... I think...
  3. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Baron

    you think this is q7 because of rage attack?
    q7 doesnt use rage attack, all other dks use rage attack except for q4 rs players.
    it is this methodology that is totally wrong.
    you need cooldown reduction, a way to attain this could have been bloody wild swing but how does one control how many cooldowns it gives per hit or per crit?
    hugely unstable in comparison to q7
    however you do it, you have to make rage attack do bleed to make q4 viable no matter what.
    Also this removes the groundbreaker activation mechanism allowing for smoother killing, and dont forget, this makes that belt BiS meaning all dks will use it, but this was not my only intention with reworking the q4 set with these mechanics and if you understood why I did what I did with q4 then you will have a greater grasp of what I did.
    But I will bluntly tell you.
    I believe this will make it into the game

    See so now you spoiled my dk buff
    Because this would allow for a dk to have 340% base smash and 50% smash attack speed and 150% increased damage.
    That 340% base smash is needed to make dks as viable as ranged classes in dso
    especially when this set lands as it probably will at some time or another.

    See how that totally changes everything for dks and all classes when this is in game?
    Now you might think this is too much.
    but let me explain to you where rangers are at and this will give you a broader idea of exactly how far behind dks are, last night I found a new way to get the average dps of for example a ranger, because i was talking to one, anyways let me show you the math
    well in short mostly
    EA = build in armor break
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
    gbit likes this.
  4. gbit

    gbit Forum Veteran

    Wait a moment... Let's fix some points :
    1) do you know that Q4 set bonus don't work with elemental essences? (while Q4 bonus and BM weapon unique bonus yes)
    2) I'm not referring to rage attack, I'm referring to +50% increase damage (base damage) in the set bonus (instead of increasing skill damage). If you change only this, or better you rework the elemental essences to be effective with the output damage, you will have an option to Q7.
    With elemental essences now is Q7>BM>Q4;
    With rework of essences AND only more attack speed Q4 will be at the same level of Q7 (or really near).
  5. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Baron

    Then youve got this all wrong
    firstly no skill bonus works with the new essences and only % damage does, please note on this because lets say fe you use Q4 you will do skill base as stated by the essences which is 200% in the case of smash

    So in short yes the smash bonus damage will not work with q4, but it kinda should because it increases the base of smash

    And let me just rectify you on the new q4 there
    thats skill damage iow smash will come in at 340% base
    let me show you why
    200% + 50% = 300 and 20% of smash which is 40% base
    meaning smash with the remade q4 will happen at 340% base
    in short it is skill damage as you can see from this
    bear in mind rage attack would not only cooldown and cause bleed but it will make itself come in at 150% base
  6. gbit

    gbit Forum Veteran

    Yes, it's right; every skill is taken in count with only skill base damage, but I 'm saying that so Q4 set bonus is not working, while Q7 (+150% ID) and BM weapon (+100% IDOTW) are working with elemental essences, because they increase the base damage of the character. And, cause of this, Q4 is losing damage respect the other weapons (in percentage and with new essences).


    I'm only saying that (and it's only my opinion, maybe I'm wrong) aren't needed all this changes to Q4 to made it a real option, just need the bonus on smash attack speed.
    Said that, I'm with you for which concern DK damage output, it's too low respect other classes and something has to be done to take DK in line with the other.
  7. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Baron

    I have been taking some time to reply to this
    Firstly the increased speed on smash alone will not be a solution
    it is not the smash speed that makes q7 better than q4
    it is the cooldown reduction from rage attack
    whereas a q4 dk has to keep the boss bleeding
    which is exactly why a rage attack bleed belt will make q4 insanely viable, not only that but 50% smash dmg will make it more viable
    bear in mind that rage attack gives cooldown and happens at 150% base per second
    so whenever you cdr fe banner of war youre doing so with increased dmg
    however during banner
    340x4 = 1360 base per second
    however you dont need to cdr something like ground breaker
    so youre constantly doing 1360% base per second
    if you really want to
    a person can maybe increase smash and rage attack damage by 75%
    that would effectively make you do 1590% base per second.

    but to be honest even at 50% increased skill dmg for smash and rage attack
    its still kinda rocking and doesnt kill q7 but certainly makes for a viable form of gameplay for q4 and even non q4 dks in general
  8. gbit

    gbit Forum Veteran

    I'm sorry but I don't agree with this, let me explain why:
    first of all, after some testing of friends of mine, the AS Q7 bonus simply reduce in half the frames of the skill (so no more 40 frames but 20 frames) and is for this that Q7 user need only 2.86 AS to reach the max speed in the hit execution (the description of the bonus is wrong), when others have to reach 3.636.
    this means that smash became faster (more faster) then a skill as rage attack...this is insane.
    as we know AS is a multiplier factor for DPS or DPI (as you want to call it), and the value of Q7 with bonus is totally unreacheble from other builds, ther is no way a DK can have that speed without Q7 (obviously we are talking about only 2h).
    second, the CD reduction is available in game from everyone, (either from skill or from runes or other) but the point is everyone can have CD reduction, so it's not this that make Q7 OP (at least is a difference in the stats needed for the best usage of the sets);
    what makes a set OP must be something that other sets and builds can't give to the pg, and this is the Q7 set AS bonus (Q7 exclusive) and not CD reduction (available from any pg).
    the Q7 mechanic needs CD red but a strong char can have the bonus on almost all the time (more or less).
    so, for what i've said above, I think that Q4 need only the same AS bonus as Q7, leaving the different mechanics for the two sets.
    what do you think about this argument? it's reasonable for you?

    p.s. also I would prefer rage attack with bleeding instead of rageful swing, it's totally not a bad idea.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
    kuwabaraz likes this.
  9. kuwabaraz

    kuwabaraz Forum Master

    The idea is nice but the problem is not solved. We have a class with a broken Q7 set, a lot of useless items that we can't use because they don't damage!

    It would be advisable to balance the only ones, having a minimum of variety is not so bad and what is lost in the damage is compensated by a significant increase in skills.

    For pvp we have live champions, I'm sure they will do their best to balance the classes later!
  10. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Baron

    well you have it half right there
    smash is a 20 frame skill
    q7 increases the skill speed by 50% making it a 10 frame skill which is less than rage attack
    However the multiplicative attack speed increase of q7 does not go to past 6 smashes per second
    Not even when you have 4.00 attack speed and this is tested

    My idea is to contest the smash speed of q7 with skill dmg
    meaning instead of 25% smash damage like we currently get you would get 50 or 75% smash damage increase
    which is actually utterly useless if you take the new essences into account I guess
    But my sheer and utter intent is to not copy q7 speed or q7 as such which is why I opted for skills damage.
    However I also think the devs learned something from the desert of essences event
    I think they learned that skills damage is OP
    but I dont think its ending with desert of essences as such
    I theorize that DOE this time round was actually part of the content expansion
    the content expansion as such being 2 fold 1 part being a completion of the desert and second part the completion of cardhun which then includes q10 and possibly q11 and also sargon being part of cardhun "new cardhun"

    We will have to wait and see
    kuwabaraz likes this.
  11. gbit

    gbit Forum Veteran

    ok, they doubled the frame rate of the skills when the game passes fro30 fps to 60 fps...but the substance of the argument is the same, we are saying the same thing.
    in effect is 6.6666, so Q7 can make 20 hit in 3 second; if you consider that earthquake (necessary to activate the bonus) has an unlock skill frame of 16 you lose 2 hit, perhaps 3, over 3 second (and this with 2.86 AS because next breakpoint is after 4.00, as you pointed out).
    I've understand your intention, and if I can say, I've had the same idea: balance the Q7 output damage (due to the OPness of speed bonus) with increasing damage on Q4, but saving the different gameplay.
    but also this wouldn't be enough with elemental essences: Q4 use this essences less efficiently tham BM weapon and Q7, and we are again at the starting point (remember that talents and bonus affecting skills don't work with elemental essences).
    at the end we need, for balancing the two sets, an huge increase in damage for Q4 (I mean HUGE), and who knows what other changes we have to face? so the simplest solution (seems to me) is to put the two set on the same level of speed, but with the different gameplay.
    my preference goes to your solution, but it is hardly to implement, if we see what devs are doing to the game now, and all these are suggestions for fixing an imbalance that came from afar...
    you know what the real problem is and why we never will see a solution...

    and after all, really good job with the new Q4 set :D
  12. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Baron

    Thank you xD
    I really wish they would implement it though
    the only thing that might make it even stronger is increasing bleeding effect damage by 75%
    but I can only picture how awesome rage attack / bws would be in this state
    Rage attack for example being a 15 frame skill would then do 150*5 per second + 45 = 795% base per second while providing cooldown
    I did discuss bleeding heavily with people like Proto etc
    Another way to boost q4 including this updated version and the current one would be to increase the tick rate of the bleed effect
    meaning lets say for example the bleed tick rate is increased by 100% bws would do 88%x2 per second over 2 seconds
    with the new set rage attack would do 90% per second over 1.5 seconds and ofc in general bleed would happen twice per second.
    the updated version though would make for an insane bonus though
    the bleed tick rate would have to be implemented on a torso or pauldrons or something though
    Another method would be to let currently bleeding foes take 100% increased damage from attacks
    or how about this.
    Well wait
    Lets put all in 1 single picture so that the impact of it all can be seen as a whole
    What I am saying is this:
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I am saying this is what will be balanced in comparison to Q7
    not only that I think this will crush q7 as a whole and bury it under a mountain...
    gbit likes this.
  13. gbit

    gbit Forum Veteran

    "shine on you crazy diamond" :D

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