Feedback Upcoming craftable lifekeeper gonna destroy everything left of balance

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by sebastian_fl, Dec 4, 2017.

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  1. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Dear Dev,

    Could you please revisit the decision to make the lifekeeper craftable? It will destroy everything left of balance no matter the bonus on it. Balanced DK are already impossible to defeat with equal balanced mage thanks to regen they have which doubles their HP over course of the battle. Just do some basic math, or some basic tests.

    For example, create to similar characters with the following stats:
    DK - HP 150k, block 80%/80%, armor 80%, resist 80%, critical hit 80%, critical damage 200% (*3), running speed +50%. Attack 1.78.
    Mage - HP 110k. Everything else the same.

    Now try duel with those two chars.

    How much damage would fireball deal to a DK? How much would the ice missiles deal? Would you ever hit him with lighting strike? Would you ever direct! Hit him with ice sphere? How much HP would DK regenerate until the time is out?

    And now add new crafted lifekeeper into equation. Answer the same questions.

    Lifekeeper should have never been in the game in the first place. It is a broken concept of healing while receiving damage by doing nothing. Some tanks on arena are just impossible to kill (with a mage) because most of the skills only heal the tank. This whole concept with existing lifekeeper should be changed to something else, e.g. no regen higher than the damage received, or regen % of the damage received and not own HP, or it should be disabled in PVP.

    There shouldn't be an item in the game that makes most of the skills of a class obsolete.

    There were multiple conversations across different language forums on a matter of defeating tank with a mage. Most of the arguments where mage can only do that with equal shielded balanced setup. But that setup will do nothing against lifekeeper equipped DK, moreover the crafted one.

    I don't want this thread to become a page of arguing. Just consider this as my feedback, and feedback lots of other players and take it into account until you have made irreparable harm.

    Thank you.
     
  2. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master

    I totally agree with @sebastian_fl here.It will ruin the pvp even more especially 1v1.It is almost impossible to hit a DK with lightning strike or catch him in the exact area where the ice sphere explodes. and because of this mages were forced to relly only on fireballs and ice missile.By making the lifekeeper craftable even these 2 skills will become useless vs warriors.Ive seen pics of warriors receiving over 1.5 mil dmg in 1v1 and this is without life keeper.With life keeper it will be as if fighting infernal bosses but in PvP.
     
  3. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    If they would apply this logic to certain things, pvp could almost be fixed.
     
  4. iNeXoRaBlE

    iNeXoRaBlE Forum Great Master

    Yeah like everything in this game is balanced especially the mages since you are one.
    The sets you have are totally unbugged and balanced, thats why are you trying to say here?
    There is so much tweeking that must be done at the pvp.
    And btw your dmg is so low that 800-900 heal/block doing so much damage? :D
    If its higher than 800-900 means that the player is too op. And has much more hp than you imagine.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  5. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Your avatar alone means our conversation is useless, read the rules.

    This topic has nothing to do with any other items but one of a very specific class so what you wrote is off-topic anyway.

    You have no clue what level of damages I can reach, and it is irrelevant anyway. Damage is pretty much limited by let's say 13k, 80crit, 400% crit dmg, which I have. And this can do nothing to a DK with 170k hp, who regens 3400 per second without lifekeeper, and is still attacking you as he has damage himself too. You end up in a fight where you dealt 600k dmg and slowly but surely lost as he recovered most of the damage and is at the end of the fight with 50% of his HP. It's gonna be 100% with craftable lifekeeper.

    If you mean 2handed mage setup, it's not going to survive 30 seconds against tanks in question, despite my miserable 27k+/80%/*4.6 damage output with close to max armor. But 2handed setups are off-topic for the purposes of this thread too. Equal players of different classes with similar balanced setup should have equal chances to win. It's not the case now, and it's going to get worse.

    But as I said, I didn't want meaningless rants here, and until you change your avatar (or mods do something about it), and you start reading and posting on topic, this is my final reply to you. Cheers.
     
  6. iNeXoRaBlE

    iNeXoRaBlE Forum Great Master

    First of all i am not off-topic, my char has good stats and max block, despite all that the life i take is not all that big, its 0.8%. in my case in pvp like 600hp/block i dont play a long my 1h build i was a 2hand. But let me tell you what, in pvp there are my OP players that have maxed out their stats, you wont win them even without that weapon, i clearly can say that you have 0 experience in fighting those characters. You just RUN till the time is up at 1vs1. Thats what i did and my pvp score proves it. You mages all you do is whine while you can build a character that actually can run. I have encountered many good mages with maxed out speed, guess what, i couldn't win.
     
  7. Demon

    Demon Forum Mogul

    You are a medium mage and he is a top player that is your problem. You need minimum 20k to be equal with him.
    Also i dont understand why people try to make life harder to other clases instead of focus on their own class.That hammer was nerfed twice now.As for Dk you need to know that every class in this game can optain a tank build and also hit from distance, they can build more damage than any dk and they can farm from distance.
    Dk on the other hand need mixed farm build to resist in front of enemy why he try to kill them because he cant play from distance like other clases.
    The only thing that dk has more than other classes is regeneration and you want to take that away from him you want to have an uncraftable piece of stik in his hand because you dont have enough damage to kill top players with your middle dmg stats mage.
    Dk is allredy strugle in this new mages meta there is not need to make life hard for them.
    As a Dk if you cant tank no one will take you to make damage for the team.(unless you have spend zilion in this game and you are strong as ...)
    As a dk you need to have 2 builds one for tank and one for 2h for solo farm that means twice more to craft and ocupied slots in inventory.
    And you want to.make other weack so that you can kill them because you dont like to farm to grow your dmg output.
    Make a DK to see how hard is that class and after that you can sugest anything you want.
    So in my opinion Dk is not op and will never be is just the oldest class in the game and there is some good players with good characters in the game and even if someday will be the most op class in this game it deserve that because is the most demanding class.
     
  8. -HARRA81-

    -HARRA81- Forum Mogul

    Don't forget that DK also has big benefit on life gems therefor makes also unfair advantages for lot of life points(up to +25 /+75%)while it would make sense to increase the other classes damage gems it's not the BP's plan here.I think there should be also difference between classes, I feel that the who gets less benefit from the gems(life gems) should get more bonus on the wisdom tree to maintain some balance. I think that the wisdom tree needs reworking, since all the items has big base statistic the old +3% hp bonus doesn't work anymore. But that's only me thinking :) Maybe I am not experienced enough:rolleyes:

    I am with sebastian when he is simply saying that 2 classes with similar builds (and items +gems quality) should have equal
    chances to win 1vs1 but it's not. In my opinion the way the "Win" Keeper works is a broken concept. I think that it should
    regenerate only life % from the damage received and the way it works makes lot of small dmg skills "bad choice" to use, which are very
    needed against DK. Ice missiles e.g. There should be no item that makes other classes skills useless. Where is the balance in that ?
    It's like having an item, let's say a amulet that grants you instantly 10% life back if other class uses liberation or if other class is stupid enough to use "auto attack" it geives you 100% life back. How about that? I think it would balance things little bit here. lol


    Farm ? I think everyone who plays the SW seriously has 2 setups for farming and pvp ( atleast I have). So in my opinion there is no difference there. Only maybe dwarfs use one build.
     
    EhtovK likes this.
  9. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    Ok where should i start from there are so many statements which are not right.
    First 1 handed builds are a waste for evertyone except tank. Mage with 1 h is supposed to benefit from crit and crit dmg .... wrong because the max is 400 percent crit dmg which is obtainable with 2h builds. Yes you can get a shield with block but the fact mages CAN NOT HEAL means you surely die. Ihave tested this build with 60percent block rate back at lv 50 guess what you loose and now with the introduction of new sets i dont even want to think what will be 1h mage vs mr heal god. The concept of a knight class is being mixed with the idea of tank. In every game see League tanks are build specifically to soak damage right but their healing is not permanent not they have so much dmg to compensate the fact that you cant kill them. Here in dso tanks have way to much mobility which makes them somewhat a safe pick so you ensure your win no matter how much time you spend. About the healing why do they have a 2h healing and healing for 1 . If you build so much hp for 1 h build why do you need constant healing ?? it just makes no sence. The game needs tanks yes , but it also need Knights.
    Second when you said mages can deal a lot more dmg tahk tanks in farm ,...... wrong we tried this also with my friend he had 6-9 k dmg while i got 11-14 k dmg guess who did the run on q3 faster ofc the tank he can get in the face of the boss and just perma smack him while having dragon hide on while i have to run specifically to hit the explosion of frozen sphere or lightningh strike.... If you are just going to say stuff that arent right then just dont.
    One final touch why do you think that in the videos where people solo bosses on inf 2 mages need more than 2 . 30 min to do the job while tanks need 1 to 2 mins max. Think about it.
    P.s i forgot to mention thge q3 set for tanks gives such a big slow which i consider a stun since he can just smack me 3-4 times due to me being slower than an snail.... because tanks need even more stuns right ?>\
     
  10. Hiro73

    Hiro73 Forum Expert

    I disagree with you and believe me even if they removed that weapon you would be here on the site to complain about other things, not only on the DK but on all the classes that would spread your character to the ground.

    For me lifekeeper is not a great weapon and if I find a serious mage in pvp I die with or without that weapon.
    I don t understand why you always complain about hp regeneration of dk, always talk about balancing the classes in pvp but I have never heard a mage, dwarf, ranger say all classes regenerate concentration, steam etc and dk no ... this it's unfair.
    Now I show you that what you say about hp regeneration is fruit of your madness. We can propose to the staff to eliminate Hp regeneration in pvp and replace it rightly with Fury regeneration for war ... Is it ok? Is the system more balanced or do you feel terror in the air every time you encounter a war in 1 vs 1?
    Do not complain about things that do not exist because DK class has already been severely disadvantaged.
     
  11. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Blah-blah. 20k of what, pro?) Show me a setup with 20k 1handed damage. Man, if you have no clue what you are talking about, just ignore the thread.

    If you mean 2h damage, I have way above that - 29k. But my damage doesn't matter, I was talking about hypothetical tank and mage with equal setup. But you are not reading, ofc.

    Another blah blah without an argument. Not a single one. Lifekeeper is in the game, enjoy. You won. At the newbie level you play you still have issues with rage. Guess you have no idea what PVP is) I would love them to replace any healing you have by rage regeneration
     
  12. ULTRAPEINLICH

    ULTRAPEINLICH Forum Duke

    You guys are funny. sebastian_fl has one of the strongest mages in grimmag and probably even over all servers, you obviously have never seen his charstats, all your arguments are based on false assumptions.
    He's is totally right about the imbalance this items brings. The imbalance between 1h mages and 1h dks is already there, this item will just make it even worse.

    ahaha yes please do so :D You are obviously a really inexperienced pvp player and/or hardly play in highend pvp games. The dk's main strength lies in his hp regen, he will profit from huge def, mid off because his opponent is unable to heal, he will die eventually, unlike the dk who's able to regenerate the little dmg he takes from a 1h mage constantly (see examples given above).

    I read this over and over again since lvl 40 and yet the best highend pvp class has ALWAYS been the dk. At the end of lvl 50 the ranger was pretty close though, and do you know why? Surprise surprise, because he was able to regenerate heavily with q-4 rings and dragan gems.

    Dragonknights have the best mobility in the game, by far the best stun, the best def/off ratio and on top of that a constant healing. So please dont tell me dks suffer any disadvantages in pvp :) The argument dks always use "we have to get close" is simply a joke when looking at the mobility and stun possibilites a dk has (huge bullet hitbox of charge, huge hitbox of jump, high range of iron brow and smash, run speed boosts, perma stun possibilties...).

    I'm not saying lifekeeper is an overall too op weapon, but it brings imbalance (especially for 1h mages and dwarfs) that is completely unnecessary. Right now, the ranger is the only class that can actually kill a good dk in 1h setup.
     
    EhtovK, Viki and sebastian_fl like this.
  13. iNeXoRaBlE

    iNeXoRaBlE Forum Great Master

    Do you actually know how hard it is to build a good 1h DK?
    I have the new "OP" lifekeeper and i regret that i converted it, its not a big deal, if you had a DK you could understand the reason, for me at the PvP there shouldn't be any hp regen from items at least.
    Now to the point, i dont care how good he is at PvE stats doesn't mean much if you can't play, mages always whine despite the fact that they are the most bugged chars in the game.
    I believe that the PvP needs rework big one to say the least.
    Most people need to understand the roles of their class.
    I switched from 2h to 1h and the transition was hell for me. We need to do 2builds to have the "best mobility" you say, that takes time and a good farming partner to help you.
     
  14. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Flooding again. Let point you to what this topic is not about first.
    1. This topic is not how hard it is to build a DK. If you want to talk about that, start your own.
    2. This topic is not about my stats or your stats. Stats only show a person have some experience, and I have 5 years of both DK and Mage, and I'm grand marshal.
    3. This topic was not to discuss anything with you but to provide feedback to the dev. But if you want, you can answer and provide your own opinion on topic, not another flood.

    What this topic is about
    1. An item which makes the existing imbalance between two classes, DK and Mage, extreme (we can add dwarfs here too).
    2. It is impossible with an equal, or even stronger balanced 1handed mage defeat 1h DK with balanced setup and lifekeeper because of huge regen.

    If you know, DK has roughly 30% more HP. So, assuming two classes have equal setup, a string 1handed mage will have:
    100k hp, 80/70 block, 80/70 armor/resist, 12.5k dmg, 80% crit, 250% crit dmg, 60%+ running speed.

    Equal DK will have all the same, but 30k more HP, or whatever the ratio is.

    Now tell me, how many fireballs of the mage above does it take to defeat a DK? How many fireballs can a mage land in a minute? How much damage total that will deal? How much would DK regenerate with lifekeeper and the healing skill? How much damage would a DK deal to a mage?

    Since you cannot do it, I will tell you. DK will heal 2,6k per second with the skill only, and getting 500hp back per fireball. Assuming 1 fireball per second, which is ridiculous amount of fireballs, DK will regenerate 150k with skill, and 30k with lifekeeper. In other words, 130% of his original HP in a minute.

    Now what do those 60 fireballs do to him?

    1 fireball - 11.5k (avgdmg) *125% * 3.5 (critdmg) = 50k per hit.
    Now with defence and block
    50k /4 (armor and resist) * 0.3 (block) = 3750.
    60 fireballs 225k dmg.

    Since the block is 80 and crit is 80, for simplicity let's take the non crits are not blocked, so its roughly the same.

    Fireball has burn, but burn doesn't stack. 5 consecutive fireballs does not mean 5x burns, just 2 max. There is no mana for 5 fireballs anyway.

    So out of DK hp, which is 130+150+30k= 310k mage only took 225k plus burn, let's say 40k. Tank is left with 45k hp.

    Mage is of course dead long before that, but anyway.

    Following this approach, we can kill a DK in two minutes assuming it doesnt touch as. It was the case with running tanks. But not with balanced.

    50% of time, mage will be running from tank. To shot a fireball, he needs to stop moving. How many fireballs can he effectively throw? How much time DK would be under dragon skin? How many charges can a DK land?

    How many fireballs do you think can the best way playing mage land in a minute? 30max. That's 1 in 2 seconds. But in two seconds DK will regenerate 5.2k plus 0.5k with lifekeeper. Way more than needed.

    I don't imagine a single scenario of a mage winning, unless go all in with 2handed setups and dream of a couple of unblocked crits. But 2handed setups are off-topic here in this thread.

    All of that was about 130k tank. Which is I must say pretty average. Tanks I play with and against, are at 170k+ already. It is possible to reach more while maintaining max crit, high dmg, and 200% of crit dmg.

    If you apply my math to the tanks with 150k+ hp, results would be worse for a mage. If we talk 170k, even worse. Damage is limited, and everyone has pretty much reached the cap. Every 200 of damage over 13k max would mean much larger loss of hp.

    Now, few options mage has:

    1. Go into higher hp setup, tradeoff - less crit dmg. Result - things are worse, as he needs even more shots to defeat the tank, and tank regenerates even more. Imagine exponantional graph - the less dmg mage deals - more and more DK regenerate.
    2. Go into max Crit dmg. I can make it max, 400% (*5). Tried it. Tradeoff - lack of hp, as both rings and amulet are in crit dmg. And that hp from talent or helmet doesn't have the base to work on top of. That's a huge loss of hp. Mage will need roughly 80% of the fireballs he needs with 350% crit dmg, but just 55% of that setup HP. The result will be quicker death.

    Now since you started about how hard it is to build DK - this is lie. Much easier. DK always have party. DK can solo things mages can dream of. DK can run through things mages can dream of. Current event is a good example - DK of my level would easily run through infernal map, killing the boss and collecting cores. Mage cannot do that. Mage can clear the map fast, but not run through. Finally, DK of my levek will be just standing while killing mortis on blue. I could barely handle inf2 on red, running like a chicken around him and using 10 potions per round. But anyway, let's leave the character development for another time and another thread.

    And change your avatar, pretending to be an admin using their style is against the rules. Cheers.
     
    EhtovK likes this.
  15. Falk101

    Falk101 Junior Expert

    PvP is the cancer of this game...

    Maybe the best would be to separate PvP and PvE definitively and for PvP all players would have the same power / lvl / skills. Like that no jealous and no problem anymore.
     
  16. iNeXoRaBlE

    iNeXoRaBlE Forum Great Master

    Well i can safely assume that you clearly dont have a clue how to play 1vs1. I have told before how to deal with the healing, thats how i dealt huge hp regen at 1vs1 when i was a 2h DK, but i don't care if you want to stay still and take the hits. I can make a guide how to win PvP against shields if you want.

    The new lifekeeper cuts down the reg/block at half.
    The average DK player has about 100k hp i have 73k with 15% bonus from pets and 10% from fennec (i play 2years 3-4 months 1h)
    With a regen from skill 1500.

    I can't take a win at 1vs1 with my shield and i have decent stats, why is that? Its not as easy as you think if its so easy dump your mage and make a DK.

    I have played plenty 1vs1 and some 5v5 and believe me the weapon is not that OP as you think it is.
    You have a problem winning 1vs1 because at your "level" the players know how to play simple as that.
    Now tell me, how many times do you run till the timer hits 0? Do you run at 1vs1?

    The PvP isn't balanced and will never be due to many reasons, each class is good at certain modes, For example if played good at 5v5 mages are the best for offence and defence while the dk steals the flag. I havent lost a 5v5 where the mages knew where to hit. Not all classes are made for 1vs1.
    All classes have their pros and cons.

    now, let me say it once more... The weapon is not OP at all and believe me, its better for you lose some 1vs1 and have a good tank with you.

    P.S my Avatar is blurred and you have no right to tell me what to do, a mod already told me, stop trying to be high and mighty, i have seen it the first time you mentioned it.
     
  17. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    You have presented a decent argument with all things being equal, but how often does that happen?

    Maybe you see lots of 1h mages. Others may not.

    I highly doubt 130k is "average" for dk. You are assuming that a great deal are at the top. Yes there are some with 170 and some with more, but there are more than a few who are not OP.

    So if DK's are nerfed, what about the weaker ones? Do they need to be punished as well?

    I have a very hard time believing that so many run into nothing but the OP DK's all the time.
     
  18. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Finally someone listening. Not sure you understand though. All I said was there is proven issue should be taken care of. I did not say how to fix it, not my job. I also said this item brings imbalance due to pure mathematical things - damage and hp are not proportional. While healing and lifekeeper mean nothing at pre50k hp levels, they do mean more and more after 100k.

    I do agree and the newbie level where mages already have some damage, but DK are not yet there in terms of survival, mage will make it from distance with ice or whatever. But further they both develop, further it shifts towards a DK winning, and on the top level - smashing. At the top, there is just not enough damage to overcome healing which depends on maximum HP instead of some formula that would take into account damage taken.

    Have you heard of a gamma concept in color calibration? It has to be applied here. Red green and blue do not grow equally and linearly, there is gamma correction. While 33,33,33 might be gray, cc,cc,cc might be bluish so gamma correction is applied to the blue level.

    I will be just throwing ideas (nothing well thought through), but an example of solving the issue might be. Just an example:
    1. Regen out of current hp, not maximum.
    2. Lifekeeper regens 0.5% out hp multiplied by the damagereceived/constant, so it is only 0.5% with the maximum possible 2handed mage hits, 0.4% with top 2handed mages, and much less against newbie or a mage with 1hand.
    3. It should never regenerate more than receives, so it doesn't make 50% of skills obsolete. This is just unreasonable that damaging someone really heals him. You asking me if I thought about lower level DK. Did you think of vice versa? Newbie mage against lifekeeper?)

    You are or might be playing at the level the issue doesn't exist. Fair enough. Ignore the thread and move one, it doesn't affect you. When you get to 150k hp and play some arena, let me know.

    But on the other side, tell all your stats. Let's make an equal mage - you with 30% less HP and do the math. How much damage mage like you would deal you per hit?)
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
  19. Mesala

    Mesala Advanced

    My two cents:
    The problem is not the Lifekeeper weapon, its in the skill.
    Battle frenzy > Invigorating armor
    Description: Using Battle frenzy regenerates 10% of your max HP over 5 seconds.

    Replace 10% with a lower number and the problem resolves itself. But that would mean some changes in PVE department as well.
    We will have to wait for the promised pvp/skills changing that will be happening in 2018 to see what will exactly change for the better.

    Slightly offtopic: Your real problem should be the Agathon set from the cube, the final set bonus disses out 50% HP bonus, not the lifekeeper weapon. If you want to see trully immortal, wait for the Agathon cube set pvp player. Player with that set don't need no lifekeeper believe me.
     
    gun likes this.
  20. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Hey man, what's up?)

    No, it's not just the talent. Lifekeeper is an issue as well. Specifically - besides regen it prohibits the use of some of the skills, like ice missile, magic missile, charge etc, anything below fireball. But I agree the issue is more complex.

    As for the premium set, I have it t5 already with good stats, just a ring could be better. Didn't consider using it though. Doesn't the hp bonus stack with the talent and other hp%? If so, it's not big of a deal. 1 enigma has more crit dmg than the whole premium set combined, and you can land there a line of hp or two. Unless those 50% work on top of everything, should not be a big deal.
     
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