What makes a good ARPG?

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by Akageshi, Jul 12, 2018.

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  1. Akageshi

    Akageshi Forum Duke

    Hi. I've recently heard this definition and I think it's pretty good:

    What makes a good ARPG?

    1. Enjoyable, fluent combat that feels just GOOD and satisfying.
    2. Tons and TONS of cool loot.
    3. Many different customization options regarding both character stats AND visuals.

    DSO on top of that is an MMO. So perhaps number 3 should play a very significant role.

    Do you think DSO has it all?

    (Please refrain from talking about other games, because... forum rules.)
  2. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    As always... it could use some work. They've been talking about features like customizable skins for ages, and combat has always been a point of contention for those who feel everything is imbalanced.

    I'd say one of the few things the game does really well is loot, but I'd love it if there was some way to improve the quality of the loot. I can farm for 8 hours and not find a single item with a gold line good enough for me to hold onto. Maybe a "luck" rune that could go in shoulders (since that seems to be where the farming related runes go) and shift the bell curve to the right for the quality of enchantments and base stats.
  3. silverseas

    silverseas Count Count

    YES! I've been begging for more visual customization options such as hair options, hiding helms, using existing pieces of equipment as "skins" for other equips, etc for years. :D

    Long story short, there's demand for these "pay to look pretty" things. DSO just needs to get their foot in the door and add these features.
    MademoiselleCaramel likes this.
  4. Akageshi

    Akageshi Forum Duke

    There really is lots of loot, but 95%, or so, of it is just armor/weapon items. Yes, those are the most important ones: Source of glyphs, silver, and crafting material. Then the rest 5% is cores, essences, wisdom, and some currency items. A new crafting bag and probably lots of new crafting ingredients are supposedly coming in one of the near future updates, so I'm guessing the diversity of loot will increase... Which would be great.

    I'd always like to have a way to increase a chance of success. So I once suggested something like a crafting skill in this forum. The more you'd craft, the bigger your skill would get and the higher chance you'd have to get a good result. But that suggestion wasn't well received for one reason:
    As I was told, in DSO, once you get an option to get better at something, like to get better chance of a good crafting result or better chance to find an armor with better stats, etc., the base or default chance gets decreased, and so in the end it would require more farming because first you'd have to farm like mad in order to get to the chance level you were previously at before, and then farm more to use the new 'higher chance feature' to get that original chance higher.

    On the other hand, do I feel that materi fragments and ancient wisdom drop at lower rate now that we have runes for both? I don't think so...

    Yes! More visual customization! Well, what there is a lot of, are mounts definitely. But there should be more costumes and stuff. Just what you said.

    the "Pay to look pretty" concept is a good thing. In fact, I've seen it in this also free to play game, where pretty much the only thing players can purchase for real money, are costumes and pets, which are both merely aesthetic (= no real gameplay effects). And the game was thriving.


    Back to the definition I mentioned in the first post,

    1. Combat in DSO is, imo, really good. It's got nice spell/skill effects, both in visuals and sound. It's got a nice flow. It feels good.

    But once you make a certain build, you are pushed to only use like 2 skills a lot, much more than anything else. It becomes a bit monotonous.

    Also despite the combat is flowing nicely, once you defeat a cluster of enemies, you have to collect your loot by clicking most of it. When especially in a group, you can easily begin to be more and more at the back, not really contributing the the battle, because some players collect stuff more quickly or some people just can't be bothered to collect all the goodies.
    This kind of hurts the flow...
    2. Loot, well I hope there will be more diversity like I said before. But it's already quite fine. This kind of games is just based on killing monsters and collecting loot, so the more cool stuff to collect, the better.

    3. Like you both mentioned, @_Baragain_ and @silverseas, the game could use more visual customization. Agreed.

    But in regards to stat customization, it seems to me that DSO pushes players of each class to sort of pursue the optimal build and ignore everything else. Sure, you can get all sorts of unique sets and try to mix them in any way you like. You can use crafting to put any kind of enchantments in your gear, etc.
    But the game is so designed that most of these various combinations are useless. The best for you, as for performance and your time, is to just follow the optimal path. As a Ranger damage dealer, pursue the ideal combination of this and that set, don't bother with anything else. As a tank, follow this best possible combination.
    There are many interesting rings you can use, but don't waste your time - just get Dragan's and Mortis' one. Want to deal a lot of DPS? Well, forget one handed weapons, and ideally get only this one 2h weapon because it comes in a set and you'll destroy everything 10 times faster.

    You see? Good customization options stat-wise in my opinion means to have many ways to be a really good build, not just one or two ideal paths. The way it is now, we are supposed to be copies of one another, pretty much.​
  5. sargon234

    sargon234 Commander of the Forum

    they should improve the loot now that they made the bosses more difficult

    Perhaps inf 3/ inf 2 bosses should have a guaranteed unique and a guaranteed item with at least a gold line?

    As for the OP, a good rpg is not Drakensang Online, as a start

    Loot is bad, customization is lacking( too few lewd things), combat handles terrribly, since you easily get stuck and movement is a pain [EDIT]
    Last edited by moderator: Jul 13, 2018


    • Fluent combat system (which dso certainly does not provide)
    • Good performance
    • No heavy bugs/exploits that affect your gameplay
    • Customization possibilities
      • More than 1 viable build
      • Different builds for different tasks
      • Looks
    • Different PvP modes
    • Different farm modes
    • Rewarding quests for farming even in the endgame
    Akageshi and Arr like this.
  7. ChristopherPapakaliatis

    ChristopherPapakaliatis Forum Apprentice

    As long as I am concerned DSO has it all. You can call me an idiot or a HYPER-OPTIMIST but DSO's gameplay experience is one of a kind in its genre, the visuals are as good as a free-to-play game gets and the loot system is perfect. The only downsides for me are the customization part, the PvP, pushing my favourite Q (mortis) in the vicinity and of course the community. But still, after six solid years of playing, DSO is fun.
    lovatic66 and Akageshi like this.
  8. Arr

    Arr Forum Expert

    we dont even have weapons and you want skins

    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  9. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    Well whats good about drakensang?
    They keep us busy, busy busy busy.
    So busy you get branded as a no lifer etc etc.
    I have never played a ARPG that has kept me for this long.
    Fluid combat yes
    I am against the need for cooldowns
    In many unmentioned ARPGs the hordes are much bigger
    the unique system comparatively is lacking, yes it is there but get q7 and you are king. (so in other words there are no other uniques and or they are irrelevant)
    Also in many unnamed ARPGs the hordes get killed faster and the boss does die but needs technique, and no revival stones etc, you can spawn just outside the boss chamber door and go at it again.
    In almost all ARPGs dual wielding is a given except this one.
    In almost all ARPGs the hordes is a matter of fast grinding and the boss is the challenge, in this game the map is daunting and the boss now after r211 even more so
    There are unnamed ARPGs that even allows you to be able to dual wield 2x 2 handed weapons at the cost of 25% decreased damage (however you get the perks from the unique values and still massive damage)
    Meh customization is overrated this is a ARPG not a stand around and look pretty, its about the grind and the rewards for grinding
    I have been a gamer now for 27 years and ARPGs is my cup of tea, has been and always will be.
    One thing this game does do well is keep you from getting bored, that is the downfall of many games.

    All this game needs is a mega pack of uniques, the ability to farm faster, and making bosses challenging in a different way.

    I have noticed that the bosses abilities scale per difficulty <- this is very good every next tier has its own set of challenges.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  10. silverseas

    silverseas Count Count

    But of course. Everyone else is busy arguing about how overpowered or underpowered a specific character, class, skill, set, etc etc is. :rolleyes: Someone needs to break the monotony and ask for some eye candy.
  11. Akageshi

    Akageshi Forum Duke

    That's right actually :/

    Also some movement based skills, like RA's Blade Dance, glitch out...

    What exactly do you dislike about the combat in DSO?

    The 1 ideal build thing gets on my nerves a lot.
    Good points.

    Some time ago I suggested NPC's to randomly pop up in cities all over Drakania, giving random quests so you actually have more reasons to farm especially old maps. Keys and rune of wisdom are not enough... Also the quests would make the game feel more like an MMO, even if they were just fetch quests. You would never know which NPC is in need of your assistance, so you would have to travel and re-visit old locations.

    I like the visuals too. I like old looking games in general. (Pixel art ftw :]) It doesn't look like a current Cry Engine game, but let it stay the way it is now. More people can play it without having to worry if they can actually run it on older pc's.

    There certainly is a lot of loot in DSO, but truth is, the randomness of drop, or sometimes it even looks like deliberately not random just to really make you angry, that's just bad :/

    Ye, something keeps me coming back to the game despite its many flaws.
    Most likely it's my character. He sucks, but I've had some good time with him...

    Good point actually. DSO should get its weapons / sets sorted first. Test server is for experimenting. No more rushed changes on live servers.
    There should be many equally good ways how to have a good character build.

    Yep. But I wish they kept up busy with actually fun stuff. Mindless farming is what I really hate about DSO.

    Why is that?
    I think cooldowns make you plan a bit more ahead, so combat is not a spam fest...

    This is what makes me angry. Why aren't there more equally good options to have a good character build?
    Some people would say you can be good without q7, but I doubt it - especially at the same resource/money/time cost.

    I take this as a feature of DSO and we just have to live with it :/ Dying and paying for revival is probably one the main sources of income for the company...

    As for fast grinding, well I suppose if you are at the power level of a solo infernal III killer, you can experience the fast grind in painful maps :D

    I'm sure the devs would break the game totally if they introduced dual wielding. Look how much problems they have with current weapons - and there's not many.

    I disagree in case we are talking about an online game. It's very important that you have options to make yourself stand out.
    In a single player game however, I would agree with you.

    Yeah I think they have recently started to add more variety to bosses' abilities, but it's more of a quantitative change. Each boss should have a set of unique attacks and whatnot that it would cast in different difficulties. Now it's still not really there yet...
    Phyrix likes this.
  12. Shiro

    Shiro Padavan

    It was nearly good before they messed up with R211
    There are a lot of items that can be dropped by mobs, but half of them are useless.
    Equips drop very frequently but most of then are useless too :D
    About stats, even tho there are different ways to reach the highest levels, just one set up is the strongest.
    About character visual, there are only a lot of costumes, but what I really really want to see here is some sort of transmog...
  13. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    The definition sumes up quite well the definition of ARPG and DSO partially has them all (beeing the copy of the masterpiece it couldn't be differently), whoever thinks there should be something else... well that's not ARPG .
    New generation ones added the OnLine form but that has never been focus in ARPGs (as PvP).
    The main problem on DSO is the pathfinding, shame is the game population probably has never really understood the importance of this aspect and I surely can affirm this because in the dev's team letter thread none but me focused on this aspect (while most of them spent time uselessly whining about useless stuff).

    The best aspect of DSO is crafting which could bring a lot more personalization than now, shame is the enchantments you can put on every item is pretty standard, everyone has to put the very same combination on items and just with the introdution of new wisdom system we could see some diversification which is related on a couple of items and nothing more.
    Again, probably I was the only one that asked for a change of the set of enchantments on items. This should be threated very carfully because it could make too hard the craft for good/end game gear bringing frustration in the player base (which is, nowday, used to have everything with no effort).

    I repeat loud and clear: crafting is the key of this game; without it DSO couldn't exist and I would greatly improve it.

    Other than this what it's really needed is to improve diversification (not the fashion one that' honestly, I couldn't care less), with sets and unique effects, not just stats-pumping ones that would end in the very boring same "cookie cutter build". In the beginning Q sets were ment to do this, now just a couple of them kept the promise and a revamp would be really appreciated.

    The complete separation of PvP from PvE probably will let this take the fly because, so far, PvP was the burden that never let PvE make the great jump.

    Even if it's a F2P, the grinding ain't as bad as korean F2P games around.

    Actually that's not true and I can post A LOT of examples. While the first part it's true ARPG is all about efficient grinding (fast... is a misleading concept) the boss fight, has never been the "challenge", if I had to look for a challenge in the boss fight I cannot think about arpgs. I've played 5 stars MMORPGs and the boss mechanics are a total different story. Bosses in ARPG are generally fat pinatas there just to celebrate the end of the run... oh just to give it another shot... where is HARDCORE MODE? We all know softcore is EDIT
    Last edited by moderator: Jul 15, 2018
  14. Akageshi

    Akageshi Forum Duke

    I don't like this at all :/ having an ideal setup and the rest is trash...
    Maybe I would be ok with it if the items needed to build the ultimate setup were really really really hard to obtain, much harder than anything else in the game. That is not the case of DSO, though.

    I don't understand the importance of pathfinding either. I thought monsters in these games are simply just supposed to go for you. They do that and they don't even get stuck in objects which is amazing because I do sometimes...

    Perhaps you meant to say "the most important aspect" not "the best aspect". Because crafting in DSO is pain in the butt. And it's that because it's random no matter how many times you've been crafting and how much gold you've spent.

    Crafting bench is supposed to be put to some more use in one of the upcoming updates. Let's see how that turns out.

    Do you mean something like for example q5 set's special ability? the illusions of the player that spawn once his hp go below 33%?
    If yes, then I do agree. Unique sets should have unique qualities.

    In my opinion all sets, provided that they are equally hard to obtain and have similar play style focus, should be equally useful. Yes, with different attributes and bonuses, but you should be equally successful wearing set A just as you are with set B.

    Yes, I think this is correct. PvP sort of hinders the evolution of PvE.
    Shiro likes this.
  15. Arr

    Arr Forum Expert

    diversification of builds, challenging bosses, acceptable loots, good team and solo play, fun events, low grinding, low monotony, good pvp based on skills and strategy, no obnoxious sound and graphic effects, good community and forum managers, developers that play the game and know what they are doing, consideration of players feedback
  16. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    Because most of the pleyers don't understand that pathfinding is involved in everything brings "anything" from point A to point B which includes (a basic list):
    - any movement done by playing characters
    - any movement done by not playing characters
    - any pojectile collision
    Effect of this are things like:
    -moving from point A to point B you get stuck in the same place because your character will try to move using straight lines instead of calculate the shortest-walkable path
    - mobs that can't reach you with a straight line will get stuck in the same place or will run forth and back because they are unable to calculate a path
    - projectiles fired against a stair or hilly grounds will "pass through" the terrain

    In a fast paced game this leads to a very poor gaming experience, influences mostly dedicated gamers (as they are the ones that will majorly note the flaws) and is one of the main problems in game combat (both PvE and PvP).
    It's the best aspect because it could let you personalise the build OVER the normal personalization you could have with different sets/uniques.
    The current form of crafting has just 3 tiers of enchantments:
    - BiS
    - decent
    - trash

    If we had at least 2 equivalent high value enchantments anyone could chose what balancement to pick on every item, things could be eventually easier because you can get "mixed" enchantments over multiple items.
    The best, to me, would be to get 4 enchantment, 2 high value 1 mid value and just 1 trash tier but with the chance to "etract" the legs crafted onto the unique so will always be able to keep crafting the leg and/or to move it onto different uniques.

    There could be a lot more, Q7 is an example, Q8 for mages is another example.
    Sets bonus should completly change the behaviour of some skills to completly change the playstile. That's how useless skill get buffed and become very good to be used.
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