Suggestion Why we don't like CV

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by BigPapa, Nov 18, 2015.

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  1. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    Lets call this thread a note to developers. Keep it civil and factual, no rantathons.

    In concept, the idea is cool. Give us a way to determine the value of an item and overall usefullness for our toon by showing us a mathematical value. Many of us use tools Like DPI or Optimizer, so having one in game is a very good idea. Overall the idea is cool, but at the moment it does not provide a valuable comparison and, even worse, it's misleading. Luckilly i have enough experience to know better. But, just think of all the bad choices the tool is pushing new players to make, which is downright sad.

    In execution it is less than desirable and within 5 minutes I started ignoring it. To be helpful, maybe we can identify for you what would be helpful or changes that would pinpoint what we want.

    First, the direct comparison, item for item, is completely wrong:
    It does not include gems. This is absolutely necessary. Items with less gem slots cost ander and we need to know for those items with %based increases, what would be the final vlaue if we decided to expand gem slots and transfer gems. This is specifically needed for weapons.

    The direct comparison also does not take set bonuses into consideration at all. If I followed your guidance, I would replace my witch chaser pauldrons with a level 45 Blue.

    Values have been assigned to each enchant type (armor, crit, etc) but we dont know what that value is, or why you think one carries more weight than another. Maybe giving us the multiplier you used for each enchant type would at least let us understand why the number is what it is.

    Comparing offensive stats to defensive stats is silly.

    The overall feature is not intuitive, which all mechanics like this should be. If I put an item with higher CV value on, my overall CV should go up right? Not always the case, and yes i understand why.

    Maybe instead of you determining which stat is most important, you could just give a score based on how close the item is to max possible stats. Now that would be useful.

    Second, the OVERALL CV score near the XP bar is more usefull but needs some work.
    This should be two seperate scores, one for offense and one for defense.

    I get that this score takes character total stats into consideration, but without a breakdown of offense and defense or at least a weight value it doesnt do much.

    We should be able to actively identify how to improve this score the best. Would my score go up more if I had another armor gem? What about more Crit? What about another speed gem? What should I upgrade at the blacksmith to increase CV the most? This would be possible if we could compare our toon to an optimal one or at least what you think is optimal by seeing how our character stats are melted into one score. With DPI i understand why the score comes out the way it does. WIth CV, I have no clue. All I know is if I max armor out my CV goes way up. But my damage stinks when I do. Why do you think that makes my toon stronger. It might live longer, but so would the monsters im fighting.
  2. pydragons

    pydragons Padavan

    The devs should listen closely to this thread because I'm sure this thread will hold the right design. A design made by players who play, not by programmers who test if the formula works. Then passed on to QA team which is probably Greg... huh.

    Such system cannot be compared to... uhm "the game from Blizzard", because this company have professionals and actual QA team.
    I'm not even sure how BP decided to implement such system when its obvious that amateurs cannot pull this off.

    That being said, if the devs don't consider heavily the advices, CV system will do more harm than good. Some players will already start to trust the CV value, while the other item is clearly better.
    BigPapa, Darwarren and misterbean like this.
  3. misterbean

    misterbean Padavan

    Are you kidding me? This CV is a big joke and is very misleading for the new players.
    Let me tell you what happened today. I was wearing a blue torso which had about 13% more dmg. Sure, it's a blue torso but who cares, it increased my dmg a lot when I used full dmg setup.

    Then the pink boss dropped some stupid torso with 7 dmg on it or something like that. And I got a notification saying that the new torso is better. Pfff really?

    The same thing happened with my gloves. I was using 16.7% speed pink gloves which are pretty nice.
    And the game notified me that some green gloves from the green boss were better o_O... brilliant
    For the new players this CV is dangerous, because maybe they have awesome items and they throw them away for some garbage items which you recommended to them.
    BigPapa likes this.
  4. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Another issue is the diminishing returns you get from armor or resistance... it shouldn't just base it off of your stat value, but your % reduction from the stat... having 10k armor is cool and would give you a great CV, but it is a complete and total waste once you break the 80% mark... but that then interferes with the direct comparison of items. I have said in many build threads that balancing a toon's stats, such as armor vs HP vs resistance is much more complicated (the idea of "effective HP" from those stats) than just trying to get stats as big as possible. BP had a good idea, but implemented it very poorly... big shock.
    misterbean and BigPapa like this.
  5. silverseas

    silverseas Count Count

    CV needs tweaking as far as gloves are concerned. Almost every pair I pick up tells me it's better, but upon IDing, it's just some crap. The attack speed values in gloves are being given far too low a weighting compared to the defensive stats that are possible.
    draco994 and BigPapa like this.
  6. taketh

    taketh Regular

    I had suggested a better idea of having two new stats on the character page; average damage (takes into account crit rate and crit damage) and total defense (taking into account armor, resist values, block strength/rate). This would have been more simple to execute, and less obtrusive. I don't like how the text is orange above skill points 1 and 2 whereas the other text is yellowish.
    BigPapa likes this.
  7. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    I guess armor counts for a lot in their made up calculation.

    BigPapa likes this.
  8. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Just wait... I've been doing a ton of research on this wacky system of theirs. I'm about to make a wall of text with a lot of the issues I have and it will blow your mind. The more you look at this system's inner workings, the more messed up you realize it really is. In the case you've got above, armor (and resistance) is worth 2 CV/AP or 2 CV/Res. On the other hand, HP is 1 CV/HP (but this can be boosted to 1.75 CV/HP on item with knowledge but doesn't reflect in direct comparison.) Even more nuts, Crit is only worth 0.6 CV/CHV while damage is worth 12 CV/Dam.
    BigPapa likes this.
  9. spartawars

    spartawars Someday Author

    developers they dont develope, they only do what they masters say they need to do... pvp is an example
    and change that annoying cursor
    Last edited by moderator: Nov 24, 2015
    BigPapa and misterbean like this.
  10. And please stop doing annoying double posts. There is an edit button for a reason.
  11. EvelynJ

    EvelynJ Forum Apprentice

    The thing I find craziest of all is that you put on red essences and your CV quadruples. I go up to almost 200k CV when I put on reds with some buffs and my character isn't even very good.
  12. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    That is because damage is heavily biased towards damage and armor/resistance. The best tank ever could have an OK CV score and someone with an awesome CV score could suck. It just goes to show that this system is not likely to be worth even looking at for another 3-5 releases.
    BigPapa likes this.
  13. Darwarren

    Darwarren Count Count

    The numbers don't make sense.

    I found an archmage vial that is supposed to give me an increase in CV of about 400 (6366-5965, or 6.7%) , compared to my magus skull.
    True, the armor value does go up in the character stats by about 3 %.
    But my resistances go down by 3 %; my block rate goes down by 14 %; and my health points go down by 400 (2%).
    An interesting thing: The white script in the item comparison says the vial increases block rate by 115, but the blue script still gives my skull an edge in increased block rate of about 63 %! The blue script isn't factored in? (??)

    CV = Bogus and misdirecting.
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
    BigPapa likes this.
  14. Supergiu

    Supergiu Forum Apprentice

    Glyphs rise CV value too.

    I dropped yachak belt lvl50, filled up with 5 100s life gems, and it had around 700CV less compared to the empty lvl47 i had.
    Sorry for not providing img.

    Edit. Gems were diamonds, not amethysts.
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
    BigPapa likes this.
  15. EhtovK

    EhtovK Old Hand

    What's more scary about this feature for me, is that, if I'm understanding their intentions correctly, they'll try to use it as a basis for match-making in PvP, most likely in 1vs1, since they stated at some point that they'll be trying to make the matches "fair" by pairing you up with someone who has "around the same power as you do".

    If this is the case, I hope they realize there's a really long way to go on improvements for this feature, and it won't be reliable for using as a basis on match-making at all as it is right now for a wide variety of reasons, let's say I remove my weapon, with this my actual CV goes down a lot, almost 30-40% in a lot of players, so, I get paired up with a most likely weaker player, then I equip the weapon back before the match starts and that's that for him, and this is just one posibility out of a lot more that can be developed to wreck and abuse a CV-based match making system.

    I'm on the group of people who doesn't even bother looking at the numbers at the moment, anyone who has played for a bit will most likely do the same, but indeed new players are being misleaded very badly by it. Still, I'm not as capable and well versed in numbers like other people to effectively detect and isolate all of its flaws and point them out, like the issue with gems, sockets, and their own system trying to tell us just by a single number if our toon is mixing the correct items together to get stronger, this is extremely unaccurate considering one of their intentions after R155 is that every toon could be somewhat different to the other and make a unique build with talents and gear.

    So, I'm hoping they listen to the much needed feedback of these people, because as it stands now, CV is not useful nor reliable at all, for anything us or them want to use it, including match-making, where a wrong step might wreck completely a format like 1v1.
    BigPapa likes this.
  16. misterbean

    misterbean Padavan

    Instead of focusing on features everybody wants (like hud locking, crafting, essence slots, server switching, glyph extraction, improve the cursor so we don't lose it, fix pvp, bring back teleport and mount at the same time "bugture" etc etc), they waste their time with this useless feature.
    Troneck86 and BigPapa like this.
  17. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    You can bet if used as a match making utility it would be abused heavily. It would be nuts right now anyway with the scewed armor values and HP. Centurian DK's would be fighting Marshal SW's and you'd see people running around town naked waiting for a match. They would have to mix it with some kind of ELO score.
  18. SGK|GaminG|HD2000

    SGK|GaminG|HD2000 Active Author

    Explain this? or

    img host

    BigPapa: Its a bad connection to an image:D

    Edited :D

    The CV calculates the minumum and maximum damage, making D-handed normal weapons have More CV than Legendary 1-Handed Weapons.

    I have many images for bugs and glitches. unfortunately i lost when installing win 10. but still i have few, so can anyone tell me where to post them? so i wont lose any info in future. thnx in advance :p
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
  19. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    Its a bad connection to an image:D


    Hehe, thats a great example. It apparently only looks at the stat line for damage but not the overall DPS. More reason to ignore it until it is made valid.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
    SGK|GaminG|HD2000 likes this.
  20. SGK|GaminG|HD2000

    SGK|GaminG|HD2000 Active Author

    Like this?


    BigPapa likes this.
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