Announcement Ask the CMs in English

To the developers
You have just ruined the Dragan event with the amount the Uniques drop from Level 2 and Level 3 Spider and Dragan
So you can jam your Dragan event not wasting my time and resources farming for Pearls summoning Herdur summoning Sargon farming for Red Pearls then running 20-30 straight runs on level 2-3 for 1 Unique
Your game is going backwards you want people to grind people have real lives real family real jobs
And IMO your events are for twinks now level 15 in painful ??? Seriously ???
Same as the DOD disaster
Give up on twinks and make something for us end game players to do that have not got time to go and twink it up

 

Hi Haruki
What do you tell me about system random in the game?
in my opinion it's unfair and don't answer me it's luck or bad luck, because this is only a fable for children

 

That's accurate!

I remember 3 years ago I was coming back home in afternoon after an exhausting day, but I was looking forward to play event during Sargon times and other stuff. Right now I do the same and I have to consider if it worth the time, if the rewards are good, if I have to go with randoms because most of my favorite people are not active anymore... I think all these and I just don't see any progress. Ok, they release a bunch of new events, with first look they seem nice, but it's not correct to have many small and average events running just because probably someone suggested to cover "all layers of players" with their new creations. Make something big and good that worth the time of end game players. Don't try to slow people down with Tiers and endless farming and bugs and miserable rewards... this is worse! Give players something they can enjoy spending their time on.
I totally agree with what you say in the end. DSO needs something that is going to bring people back and finally enjoy the game and relax. It's a game, not hard labor.

 

Hey there community of awesomeness,

Just a quick jump in to confirm that this CM of yours will arrive tomorrow with an extra shot of caffeine and start dissecting your questions/comments/feedback. Thanks for waiting, for the Photoshop wonders and may the drop be with you.

Cheerios,
CMHaruki

 

If you don't want children's fables, then you have to deal with adult math and statistics...

Let's, for a moment, assume that the chance for each Dragan weapon ingredient is the same, both from the administrators' chest (mini event progress) and for a direct drop from any of the 4 administrators.
Then the probability of getting all 4 different items in 5 attempts (and only 1 item twice), in a "draw with replacement", is
4 * 5!/(2!*1!*1!*1!) * (1/4)*(1/4)*(1/4)*(1/4)*(1/4) = 15/64 = 23,44% .
The probability of getting 2 items once and (any) one item three times (as in your screenshot) is
12 * 5!/(3!*1!*1!*0!) * (1/4)*(1/4)*(1/4)*(1/4)*(1/4) = 15/64 = 23,44%
, as well! (the 4 and 12 in the beginning account for possible permutations of WHICH item you get how often).

So (if I didn't make any mistakes in applying the formula), you were just as likely to get a 3-1-1-0 as to get a 2-1-1-1 EVEN if the distribution is completely even and fair!

I'm not saying every drop table in DSO is fairly balanced and unbiased, and that the PRNG is delivering equal results to all players.
Many people report that the Dragan boots drop least, as it was the case for old cloak during the first events. Where such biased distributions occur, I also don't like them, because in the end it means you actually have to grind until you can complete the rarest item - your drops of the more probable items are basically irrelevant.

But in this case, a fair distribution is still quite possible (I've heard from enough people who completed the weapon), and your very small lot is certainly not sufficient to prove a statistically significant deviation from a fair distribution.

P.S. you need 7 "draws with replacement" to reach a probability of OVER 50% (more likely than not) of getting every item at least once... and 13 draws to reach a probability of over 90%...

There have been lengthy discussions in the German forum in order to obtain an "official" interpretation of the (German) ToS regarding this point.
The answer delivered by German forum mods is: gaming mice and other input devices are allowed, as long as only single keys are assigned to the other input device.
Executing any kind of script or automation (such as a sequence of commands executed by a single click), is NOT allowed and could, if detected during an anti-bot investigation, lead to a ban for your account.

 

thanks Armando
now i understand why i can kill Adminstrator Andris all the time without to get the fourth part for Dragan weapon ... perhaps i'll be more lucky the next event
P.S. I belive math can't give you the Random with its numbers , only an interpretation ...

 

Thanks Armando. I dont speak German much, but I have seen the German T&C differs from the US one. They have to get in in order. German is much more specific, but even though it is not obvious double action on 1 click is bannable from it.

Maybe it would be obvious for some, but certainly not for everyone.

Also, with all the respect to mods, they do not carry official statements. They are not liable, so whatever they say is pretty much a recommendation.

Even if that is being said by an Employee, it also has zero importance unless the Code of Conduct is in order. The forum message is not enforcable, noone sees it. They should be much more detailed in the rules, which everyone supposed to read.

In an imaginary legal case, which of course wouldnt happen, it would be a question wheather BP has made every effort possible to explain the user that specific action is punishable, and also if the user might have had reasonable believe it is not.

That generic US version of Code of Conduct does not serve as every effort possible, and also it doesnt make the user believe it is prohibited. The fact that there was a discussion kind of confirms that.

Anyway, its not a big deal, as it would have miserable benefit if any. Just a little bit of fun when running through some junk map 1000 times.

 

You nailed it!
Best answer to all those "math loving' people
There is no "random" in programming ... especially not with broken PRNG. (not that working one would made any difference)

What they said is BS.
1. where in the ToS says what equipment should i use or what equipment I shouldn't use?
2. my equipment is my business ... it is not messing up with the game code nor anything that is BP's property
3. I have a cheap mouse that is so worn off it clicks 200x in second. It is not using macros because it is a very primitive one with mechanical issue. So yea you can make it mechanical without using scripts and macros.
And what we are going to do in this case?
The answer is nothing.

 

Regarding the above discussions, here are a few relevant clauses from the BP DSO General Terms and Conditions of Use:

1.2.9 The use of Games and Services is only authorized via web browser or special tools made available and expressly permitted by Bigpoint (ban on unauthorized scripts). In other words: The use of programs which cause excessive server load are strictly forbidden. The application of software to systematically or automatically control games or individual game functions such as bots, macros, etc. or to reproduce or evaluate games, game components or content provided on the Portal is prohibited.

8.3 Just grounds for termination

The User violates the prohibition of non-authorized scripts (see Sec. 1.2 above).

9.3.6 The User agrees to abide by the instructions of Bigpoint , its employees, assignees and vicarious agents, especially including but not limited to administrators and moderators of forums for a specific game and/or service.

 

i want to know how us MAC users are going to be compensated because we were told via a thread on friday evening at about 4pm that Mac users are having problems and that dso developers were notified on that friday since that friday until today (monday) we are still not able to play... do your developers not work during the weekend or it it only 1 person you have for the Mac tech support becasue if it was only one person that would be understandable but a team have been working since weekend we dont know when we are going to be able to play the game, what sort of compensation we are going to receive or if the compensation is going to be worth loosing 4 days worth of gameplay. Are the mini events going to be extended only for us and in terms of dragan uniques (for those that dont already have) will they be given the uniques worth 4 days of gameplay. i would like a straight answer from someone that actually knows not someone who is going to tell me as soon as possible because as soon as possible shouldve been saturday if they got informed friday or very latest today if its truly a team working on these issues. This has been the most frustrating 4 days youd expect a game that we have invested in so much to say soon as we can nd have it fixed in a few days or after a weekend of nothing happening we can see results on the monday. I seriously hope someone with an idea replies to us fellow mac users when we will be able to play. Lastly i dont know why this company hasnt done a partnership with apple or dont you guys get funded enough as a company ?

 

You would probably get an Amazon link so you can buy yourself a real machine AKA PC.

 

its a machine i use for both my work and gaming unless you would like to come carry around a pc for me around for me to take to work day in, day out then yes why not. Or if i could get a refund in wasting my money on char i cant even play maybe then i could get a 'real machine' ^.^

 

Oh I see. Well, if THAT is your problem (the drop rate from Andris seems to be way lower than from the other administrators) then I would actually re-formulate your problem to "unbelievable and deceptive luck in obtaining already 3 weapon parts from the admins". Meaning, you didn't get unlucky in NOT dropping the fourth part, but very lucky in getting the first 3.
And yes, I also do think that that drop chance could be increased by at least 200% (tripled)...

 

I have tried to find this document, but failed

Where did you get it? When I enter the game, or register, it says it is a subject to the following, and gives the following link

https://legal.bigpoint.com/US/terms-and-conditions/en

As you see, it is a whole different story.

 

The one you are reading is seriously out-dated. The one I quoted from is:
General Terms & Conditions for Bigpoint S.à.r.l. and Co, SCS (hereinafter Bigpoint)

You should also be linked to it from the forum rules thread.

 

Well, I didnt intentionally pick the outdated document. This is one the game directs me to. And forum as well, clicking on the link in the thread (you linked) will get me to the very same 'outdated' document.

The one you are using has a prefix NZ to it, which is New Zealand. Im using the one marked US, which is natural.

So thats issue #1, outdated T&C, which every american is directed to.

Issue #2, even that NZ version does not directly prohibit multiple actions on a single click, mouse firmware including use of macros does not 'systematically' or 'automatically' control the game or game function. There is every second user involvement, so it cannot be considered a botting or afk kind of a thing.

Spaming the skill on the left mouse button is rather automatic.

 

I am not going to be drawn into a debate as to whether "1.2.9 ... The application of software to systematically or automatically control games or individual game functions such as bots, macros, etc. or to reproduce or evaluate games, game components or content provided on the Portal is prohibited." specifically includes the use of macros to control individual game functions or not. My role, if there is a crack down on the use of macros to control individual game functions, will be to communicate to DSO players why their a/c has been perma-banned under section 1.2.9 of the T&Cs of Use per 8.3 Just grounds for termination "The User violates the prohibition of non-authorized scripts (see Sec. 1.2 above)"....

 

You are taking words out of the context. First of all we are talking about non-existing T&C which no american has seen or accepted so there is no 1.2.9.

Secondly, assuming Im from NZ, 1.2.9 should be read like the following:

Application of sotware (assuming it is some side specific intentional software) to systematically or automatically control... such as (lost of examples).

An action which is triggered by the user (at every second) in no way could be considered as a systematic or automatic control of a game function by (side) software.

The above text sounds like is created for online poker, blackjack or some browser games, so the scripts cannot count cards, calculate chances, or do afk farming, play, combat (jump away if macro sees an attack with no user interaction) whatever.

In anyway, do you seriously believe, that it is crystal clear for every avg Joe player out there, that he could be banned for using essence togle and attack on a single mouse click on a Razer mouse he purchased looking into BigPoints ads? I mean, do you really think so?

There is no way it is clear.

So my point is, if BP really wants to prohibit something, and make it punishable, BP has to put things in order, and be crystal clear about that. And remove that outdated legal nonsense where BP claims it can punish for something which is not mentioned in its sole discretion. That outdated T&C could be considered illigal in state of California, to mention one, with all the legal consequences. You cannot write whatever you want in the T&C, not in US. If you are selling product or services, there is a consumer law and there is a liability.

 

I have taken nothing out of context. The quotes are verbatim from the BP DSO T&Cs of Use. If you choose to ignore them and use a macro, or any external script, you do so at your own risk. Just as the perma-banned botters did.

 

Im not using it. My original question was if that is being governet, what are the limitations, rules etc.

The BP DSO T&C of use are outdated, as you said.
And you are taking words out ignoring the whole sentense, forgetting the words 'systematically' or 'automatically'. Whatever the actions are, they are being controlled by the user not script, at every moment. If I follow your idea, using any mouse would be prohibited as it controls the game function.

Anyway, didnt want to argue, lets see what Haruki comes up with. Im curious about the US version of T&C, and how do they want to enforce it if noone has ever signed it, as they forgot to update the doc for en_US locale.

As for botters, go to the botters forum and look how many of them are enjoying botting for years with no punishment.

Haruki, I would also appreciate the reasoning for the prohibition, if it is indeed prohibited. Real world cases of abuse it might be causing the game or other players.