Mages vs Ranger: Range debate

Mages have an advantage in pvp because they have a larger range on their skills. It is very minimal but allows mages to play like glass cannons as many did on lv45. Since the ranger has lost the range advantage due to the EA nerf. It is suggested that mages have their ranges adjusted to be exactly the same as the range of precision shot, EA, and hunting arrow.

And if you did not know that mages have larger range on their skills and they abused it when pws were reworked at lv50 where the bosses were already spawned and they shot at a distance without being detected. That is why we now have players triggering boss animations to solve this range issue.

Either way, increase the range on ranger's ranged skills or nerf the range on the mage skills because it is actually really annoying that rangers have to mark the opponent to do a decent amount of damage on their opponents with high costs on all ranged skills compared to mage with magic missile with 100% dmg with 0 cost and fireball costing 10 mana or less with herald set.

Let's be honest, the close combat skills are pretty useless in pvp as they do minimal damage compared to skills that cost concentration. Not to mention even less than that of magic missile. The only close combat skill with real value and is actually used in pvp nowadays is blade dance.

This had been taken advantage of in lv45. All rangers defaulted to shields with high block rates or tankier builds compared to mages who played with much more damage due to range differences. Now that mages can spam fireball it is even worse for rangers.

 

I just finished testing the range of the fireball and EA with my girl friend. For my eye they seems to have same range. How did you test the range ? I tested the projectiles only, not actual contact.

 

Have maybe a tank on the other end to confirm if he/she is receiving damage. Test it with fireball and magic missile then maybe chain lightning. Get a mage and ranger to stand in same spot. Visually it's nearly identical, but it is not because the mage will inflict damage...

Or you could just test with ranger and walk backwards until one person stops hitting the other.

And maybe you don't know this because you have never abused this range on lv50 bosses or even at the earlier levels on lv45 in dragan events, etc.
Listed under "Boss Monsters not triggering"
https://board-en.drakensang.com/threads/release-160-patchnotes-updated.70435/#post-641625
Bug was only abused by mages and dwarfs who could actually reach bosses with their ranged skills.

Anyways this leads to the rangers becoming the active pursuant in the fight resulting in receiving more hits in the face. Or just a rather stale fight of waiting for the mage to attack.

 

Rangers have the second highest HP of all classes, highest is dragonknight.
spellweavers and sm have the lowest hp of all, SW more so due to having to rely on full glass builds while SM can sacrifice a few enchantments for HP.

with this factor mentioned, rangers having a good portion of their attacks in close range, means you're supposed to be a close range class at times and taking damage.

marking feature, is one of the strongest features in game, whilst not only doubling damage of your other skills but also an added slowing effect.

SW btw, are the only class in the game with a "mid ranged" skill. strongest sustain pve skill is frozen sphere, and that requires SW (the defensively weakest class) to be in a dangerous range, as sphere max range is for example, the AOE blast range of knights in ravencaw which can kill SW one hit in fatal and higher.

if you think you've lost an advantage due to "EA nerf" then you clearly relied on EA and not your skill in pvp.
a good ranger doesn't rely on EA's explosion range to hit enemies but instead actually try to land it on the player using coordination and anticipation.

in all effects lets say until now, ranger's had the equivalent of a frozen sphere but with doubled range and also not only explodes when reaching max flight range but also on impact -- all the good parts and none of the weaknesses and added perks.


SW skills such as magic missile does 100% damage, but keep in mind its physical damage, and every class has a ton of armor nowadays.
and when you mention fireball cost reduction, you do realize with herald set you can spam EA for free, right?

in terms of herald set, the herald buff - aside from getting cost reduction on fireball, mages require using meteor (60 second cool down or with mind control 2 meteors in 60 seconds)
literally the slowest skill in the game in terms of pvp, there is a 2+ seconds impact times - therefore the actual usage of herald buff is essentially near nonexistent.

whereas rangers, it requires using net to Proc the buff, its one of the lowest cool downs in ranger skill set, near instant, stuns and marks, and can add a 40% chance to remove cooldown. therefore, a skilled ranger would Proc herald buff, getting 150% extra damage and EA spam - whereas SW, just throw a ton of fireballs, which require some anticipation and skill, or you're just standing there begging to be killed.

a good SW vs a good Ranger I'd say are equally balanced now in pvp, whereas rangers lack sustain they have higher mobility (dive, if used right Blade dance, adrenaline) and long range stun capabilities such as net and eagle - and SW have high sustain and burst potential, while lacking "tankiness" and only 1 escape skill.



all classes have their strong suits and weaknesses, you can't ask for all the good sides and none of the bad.

 

Dude, all i see is ranting and trying to find ways to make sw look equal to rangers when they are hella stronger and after this nerf they will be even stronger. Lets take step by step what you said.
First of all, dwarves have the same hp values on everything as rangers, but lets put that aside. You say about hp on mages, but i have seen good mages with almost the same hp armor and resistances as rangers with small differences, differences that dont really make much difference in pvp with all the dmg everyone is building.
Secondly, lets talk about item sets a little. I have seen many many mages making this stupid argument"rangers can spam EA with q7 set" or " q7 set buff for mages is useless in pvp". This is nonsense.

Lets have a deeper look on this so called op q7 set for rangers and compare it to 2 sets for mages(q7 and q8). Rangers could spam EA for 3 seconds if they hit someone with net. Do you know how hard it is to actually land a net? Im sure u dont. Now, lets compare that to not 1 but 2 sets for mages. It was ridiculus what they were doing prior to the expansion with q8 set and it is now as well. Unlimited spam of ice missile, which btw does both physical and ice dmg, meaning only ice res is not enough, is the most [EDIT] skill i have ever seen in a game. Now, q7 set. You dont need to have that buff because you can simply spam 10 fireballs with 100 mana and 20 with 1 teleport and kill anyone who tries to get closer, fireballs btw works like ice missiles, they hit both armor and the fire resistance.How dare you try to compare all these op staff for mages with rangers q7 set which if i dont hit the net its worthless in pvp?I dont even mention that EA cost 66 concentration and fireball even without q7 set costs 25.

You mentioned that the marking rangers have to do is one of the best skills. Buddy, you are getting insane in your trying to make mages look weaker than they are. That marking [EDIT] is one of the most useless stuff ever and many many good, even retired, rangers kept mentioning how bad and useless it is.
Do you undestand that mages are by nature the fastest spamming class? What do i mean by that? Their attack animations are incredibly fast. With 2 teleports they can get behind a player in seconds and kill him instantly with ice sphere or whatever they want.

You mentioned that all rangers that were depending on EA to win are not that good. That means you want to talk about rangers pre r155 when EA came and made rangers stronger, because you like it or not EA is the strongest skill of rangers or i should say the only really strong skill.

Do you think its weird that most top pvp players are mages? Mages were always strong, same goes for dks who have invested some money, because dks are a class that requires a ton of pain to be strong. Rangers were always the class that was not that hard to go solo and make a strong char, but it was never as strong as mages and now that rangers somehow got some stuff to work with, boom, back to back nerfs on the only skill rangers have to make them look good in both pvp and pve.

Its about time you stop crying about rangers EA and try to be more skilled to avoid it. But of course right now and witi the most recent nerf, rangers are by a high percentage out of the pvp game.
CONGRATS to those who decided that and keep it up with the "But EA was too op" or "buhu rangers were too op"
PS: I forgot to mention fireball can hit you without actually hitting you. its a nice bug nooone has mentioned anywhere

 

I'm gonna stay with a Longbow+Quiver build at least for now.Got the 'OP' Q7 set some time ago and started crafting items to go with it but it seems to me that it is not needed anymore

 

Hey buddy. I hope you carefully read what i wrote and understand that q7 set is op only for farming and really does not make much difference in pvp. What happened to EA exploding only on impact is teh real issue and that affect both 1h and 2h users

 

Yeah buddy- I never cared for that set anyway- just wanted to test a 2H weapon of any sort and see how it works- all I'm saying is that as much as I never rushed to use 2H weapons- now I will postpone it for few more months

 

The range of skills are the same for rangers/mages. I dont bellieve im mistaking...Anyways...

And if you dont pvp what then?SWs are the weakest class for farming right now.We have warriors and rangers soloing fatal bosses in 20 sec...dwarfs could do it even faster..and then there are SWs who cant even get near that.Why dont u ask for a PVE boost for mages first in order to achieve equality and then work on the PvP (because not everyone does PVP but everyone does PvE).

When you say that the mages have the first chance in PVP have you also considered the fact that using fireballs doesnt do nowhere near the amount of dmg an EA does? Have you considered the fact that if u are hit by a fireball you can cancel the after effect, while if hit by an EA you are 1hit ko?

The only good set for pvp for mages is the q8 and q7 glove.Q7 set is pathetic in pvp because the meteor has like a 3sec hit delay and more than that, your opponent can see where it will hit.Never understood why the meteor had this kind of setup lol.You dont see where rangers will deploy their nets, nor where they placed traps..nor where the EA will explode or maybe the trajectory of it...And yet for mages u see where the meteor will hit..add 3s till it hits the ground and you get a useless skill.

Ill make a thread about the meteor "bug"..where other players can see where it hits.Its not fair that the buff which triggers the effect for a good set to have such a flaw.Both meteor and net follow the same type of attack.Yet one has a 1sec delay before it hits and u never know where it will hit while the other have a 3 sec delay and u see where it will drop making it useless and easily avoidable.

LE: EA is probably equal with Ice sphere in terms of dmg.And EA is vastly superior.It has faster velocity, wider range and it also detonates on hit.While the ice sphere has medium range..is slow as hell making it easily avoidable, and it doesnt explode on contact.You have a ranged class (SW) forced to attack from mid range..against warriors this equals death for instance...same if u fight dwarfs ...if u fight rangers u are 1hit even if u attack from close range, mid range or high range as long as EA hits you.

 

as this will be my last reply to the thread. i will make this as short as i can.

DK has highest hp from gems and gear,
ranger has second highest,
sm and sw has lowest.
if you dont believe me, check Gems page in drakensang wiki, or look at some random set say sigris for dk then compare to SW. consider a lesson learned.

now lets talk about q7 buff, SW will never get to proc the buff in pvp, in all my time playing I've only been hit by a meteor ONCE and was only because i wasnt even trying.
q7 buff lasts for 9 seconds, with mind control and proper timing you can get up to 18 seconds per minute.
whereas rangers can beyond that limitation, now with the extra second removed, id say not by much - therefore, balanced.

you have seen mages with lots of hp because they had way better gems than you do, gems make a difference if you hadnt noticed btw.

and i actually facepalmed when you said how hard it is to hit with the net...
buddy, try to hit something with a meteor that has a 3 second impact time and a 60 cool down.
i can hit things with net just fine in comparison i play ranger too.


rangers that depend on EA aoe dmg is by definition a "noob" in pvp. i have some really good ranger friends i play with and i never see them trying to abuse the aoe to kill me, instead i have a really good match where if i lose, its more often than not with proper timings on quick shot and precision shot.

majority that spam EA panic like crazy the moment someone gets in close range or even mid range.
this update forces those players to gain some skill in pvp.

now about spamming class,
theres a thread about Attack frame breakdowns and speedbreaks, if you check it out you will see that ranger skills have the same Attack frames as SW. try to do some actual research first please.


as for mages being the best class in pvp,
this is purely subjective, on my server the last 5 or so 5v5 matches ive played, the highest damage was caused by mainly rangers, spellweavers often tied or were close, and these were flag bearers or close.



fireball hitting without hitting?
if you mean scraping, i can assure you that all long range classes can "Scrape" this effect happens when your projectile enters the hitbox of a target but is halfway out of the hitbox as well, for larger projectiles the chances of "scraping" goes higher, therefore fireball has a higher chance of "Scraping"

if you had ever played and invested a lot of time in an SW as i have with ranger myself though i main SW, you will realize SW is a highly situational class, that depends on a LOT of prerequisites or conditions to be effective. SW is a pure strategy class, you cant just sit in one position and spam a skill to win, pve or pvp.

to this day, SW still remains on the lowest end of damage when it comes to end bosses.
cant always depend on sphere for bosses, more often than not you cant use it.
without using singularity for cooldown reduction your sustain falls short, therefore requiring longer time to kill bosses than any other class, and as you know more often than not you cant stay inside a 6 meter circle unless you WANT to die lol. takes full 8 seconds to remove meteor and destruction cooldown inside singularity.

but this said, mages dont fall THAT far behind in pve damage, but they do fall short.

whereas a ranger can use QS, then while kiting use PS and/or EA, proc q7 when needed.
SW on the other hand, have to use sphere, and fireball is utterly crap in pve, 120%+ something damage for 3 essence, while magic missile is 100% for 1 essence, and the burn damage is a joke in pve too.

realize the fact that all classes have their own setbacks like these... truth be told, i wish SW was a pathetic joke in pvp, if that meant we'd OP as heck in pve. because in the end, pvp is just for fun and pve is where the real game is.


seems i made this a bit longer than i wanted... anyway, i hope i've opened your eyes to some extent, if not then thats your loss really.


p.s. i never really agree with nerfs, sure nerf stuff all you like, but keep it pvp specific because as far as im concerned, let all classes be OP as heck in pve, infernal is hard enough as is.

 

If you take a look at what i wrote above, you will see how mistaken you are about ranger in pvp, especially when u have not played a ranger before. You think you can hit net easily? You think 1 skill is what makes a strong pvp char? Did you count how many skills are useful for mages in pvp and how many for ranger? Did you make proper maths about fireballs vs EA? 10 fireballs without needing to hit net vs 1,5 max 2 EA. Wanna do some maths? 125% dmg x10 1250% dmg vs 375% x2 750% dmg. You would say now that its 375%(im not counting the marking because almost never u get the chance to mark) on 1 attack, but, first of all its one of the most easily dodged and secondly you forget that EA hit only armor when fireballs hit both armor and fire resistance, making it super strong.
As for item sets, which item pw item set is really good for ranger in pvp? tell me. none. they are useful only in pve, whereas mages get really much from q7 and q8 sets. The pw item sets offer worthless buff to ranger in pvp. I would recommend you stop crying about 1 skill when other classes have many useful pvp skills

----------MERGED----------​

Looks like you have not properly read what i said above. That hp that rangers have more and you are crying about is wortheless when everyone is building dmg and does not really make a difference.

Also, i dont refer to pve but to pvp mostly.I dont give a [EDIT] if i hit the net or not in pvp and trust me many other rangers with q7 set dont really care about it because they have enough dmg to kill you without hitting it. Hitting it is just a buff that makes things easier. You said you play ranger too and you hit net easily? Buddy, im a very good ranger and i have played against top players and i main ranger, im not some guy that plays many chars. Try hit the net against dks that have immunities and move like crazy or mages that just sit on the corner spamming fireballs and can do 3 times teleport before you hit net and boom you die.

The attack speed breakdowns have nothing to do with the attack animations. Rangers skills such as the jump or thicket of thorns or bird(what a joke this one) even the net you so proudly think its easy to hit(because you hit noobs with it ) are so difficult to land because the animation is so slow, wheras mages teleport, ice sphere and ice missile have super fast animations.
You dared to call the rangers who spam EA noobs. Well, i guess you dont know a thing about the top rangers and how they play. There are 2 way they play: they either spam scatter shot and delete you(i do that as well and i can delete you anytime i want to) or they spam EA. I am playing against top rangers all day on heredur so please dont tell me how the best play.

Lastly, you keep saying about that 1 skill rangers have and its dmg right and that fireball cannot compare to that. i have really high hp and fire resistance and so do other rangers who are better than me and they are still dying in 1 fireball by good mages. Where exactly is the EA more broken? Everyone is dying in 1 hit, but at least rangers canot spam 20 fireballs and more in 10 seconds

P.S: My eyes are pretty open, maybe yours are not and you "hear" that by someone who is not noob and knows when something is wrong. Maybe its time you start reading better to what i have written and also see what top players do and say

 

You're wrong.You can actually get the q7 buff nearly non-stop in pve,whereas rangers have a 40% chance to actually have the buff again.And in arena,in 1vs1 you can easily take advantage of the enemy tree/wolves/guardian to proc the buff.But,you actually do not even need the buff,because fireballs with all talents and the q7 set cost only 10 mana and deals 126%(or 216% with the fire) fire damage.You think that's not enough?You can do things without buffs,whereas rangers need to proc with the net to actually get a buff.

 

I would like to clarify my position and the topic. The context for this discussion is focused on two characters/players who have max gems and most likely a mirror build with 2hand weapons. This was meant to be a purely pvp based discussion surrounding a mage vs a ranger in 1v1 combat. Don't bring pve into the discussion please.

Net can be hit with more ease compared to meteor in pvp, but in a 1v1 it is hard for any ranger to hit a mage or any class with high move speed not to mention that teleport is on 10s (7s max rank CD reduction). As for HP differences on items and on gems it's almost negligible. If a ranger has to tank a few hits before even landing a marking skill or a precision shot w/o mark (150% dmg) it isn't even worth it when mages can spam the fireball with 10 mana or less based on their mana reduction gems. Not to mention, the total damage of fireball is actually 126% + 90%. The burn sets in immediately after getting hit, which practically means it's 156% + 60%. This means that the ranger has to use a skill such as adrenaline or dive to relieve of the burn.

A smart mage would take advantage of this, and use the "bugged" skill mind control, to do a triple stun combo on the ranger knowing that the ranger has only 1 more skill for certain escape. Yes, bugged; If you "successfully" control..which mages don't need to do in pvp. #FIX&BALANCEMageSkills

As mentioned above, the EA dmg in pvp most likely being delt onto players is 375% costing 66 concentration or less based on items. Precision shot would cost rangers 30 concentration or less. In a scenario where the max concentration of the ranger is 100, they can only fire 3 max precision shots, or 1-2 explosive arrows. Not only do rangers suffer the fate of being killed for failing to hit their enemies the mage has more than enough chances to bombard the ranger for missing.

Mages don't get punished unless, they've been marked multiple times in a row. The range difference here is the key. They won't be hit and they can simply fight in a backward fade away pattern until they get a lucky hit and repeat until the enemy dies. For any class that is actively pursuing the enemy, the projectile will be relatively faster as they are traveling towards it.
This is the exact same way rangers played with the explosion range.

To my main point, this discourages any, and almost all 2h builds for pvp, namely 1v1 against mages. It makes rangers default to shields or longbows with less damage in order to have multiple chances to successfully hit the enemy.

 

Hello there, thouvou000 - I have merged your posts for you- in future be so kind and try to use Edit option and avoid writing one post right after another - try to 'keep them together' m'key?

Thanks a lot and kindest regards

 

lemme just cut that short with this, and only this.
mark a target with quick shot or whatever you prefer, then hit them with precision thats 150% x 2 dmg.
you think 216% is a lot? how about instant 300%.

that's all the comparison you need.

sw doesnt need nerfing, neither does rangers. they are fine as they are.

p.s. meteor still has a 3 sec impact time, and if you summoned wolves against a SW its like summoning guard against a ranger; begging them to proc their q7 buff.

as earlier stated, net has a short cooldown, no warnings and a 0.8 sec impact time.
whereas meteor, i just explained.

same reason why i never use guard in pvp anymore unless its a SW that used his guard first, or sm or dk. sometimes i use guard to lure ppl into trying to proc their buff to create an opening.

talking about SW bombarding is honestly tiring at this point. a SW that throws more than 3 fireballs while stagnant, is an opportunity as a Ranger that you're letting slip. realize that in fact, pvp is about out strategizing your opponent.

i can send you a hundred screenshots of my ranger friend destroying SW in pvp, and on that same note, my SW friend destroying rangers in pvp.

a stagnant target is an easy target. in this thread the entire complaints consist of lack of actual strategizing in pvp but instead not liking the fact that one class gives you a challenge over the other.

rangers can be just as much of a menace to sw is the alternative.



its very easy to class bash and complain with a subjective view of things purely from one sided bias.
takes knowing both sides to an equal amount to understand how it really is.



Now for real I'm done with this thread.

 

Well, this sounds VERY good for Rangers when you put it like this, however this is only 10% more Health Points compared to Mages and Dwarfs (DK's having a significant 30% boost) so that's hardly is going to change the Ranger Class to a "tough melee" class.

This is far away from "strongest in game", this is MANDATORY to do any significant damage at all while other classes do full damage instantly and dosent need to waste time on marking. It's definetely not "double damage" at all, not even close to it and the slowing effect isnt that useful to be honest.

This dosent make any sense. Use shield if you die too much or play on lower difficulty.

This is a very bad comparison. First of all the cost of shooting EA is higher so the Rangers can only shoot normally 1 or 2 (3 if you have crazy concentration) until you have to wait for the very slow concentration regen or have to use adrenaline skill only for the replenishment of concentration, making them an easy target for stuns.

The magic missile yes, however this is not the problem, the problem is the ICE missile. Which spams all over the place doing TONS of damage and 100% COLD damage and is triple the firepower using the extremely powerful q8 set for mages.

First of all, the NET needs to HIT something or else q7 set is worthless. This is the most important of all. Mages still getting free fireball spam while Rangers getting nothing.
Now to something else, do the math. Mages can use 1 Meteor per 30 sec and the buff lasts for 9 seconds. Rangers use the Net and only get 2 seconds of buff. This means Mages have 150% increased damage at 30% of the time. Rangers have only 16,67% and with recycling, a bit more if lucky.
Further: The net is not "instant" at all and the timer starts before the EA actually starts to shoot making the 2 seconds window very narrow. The Meteor also stuns with the set so there is no difference.[/QUOTE]

Blade Dance in the Ice Missile rain? Is it a sick joke? Blade Dance is the worst skill ingame you become a sitting duck.
Adrenaline has to be used to get concentration remember? Can't count as a reliable getaway skill anymore.

Get the facts straight. Do it again and do it right.

 

Yes,but as meteor is harder to hit than net,the same goes with precition shot and fireball...

Correction:It's actually 60 second cooldown not 30.

 

not even gonna bother with this as it has blown facts out of proportion and twisted more than half of what I've said. i could spend another half an hour here explaining how many of these "quotes" have been molded, but im simply not going to bother.


how about make a SW, get it up to your current ranger's stats and gear, and then you will understand.
I play on my friend's ranger quite often, there are some downsides when on ranger but there are also many perks that make up for it.


and just so you know, lets not pretend sigris set doesnt give you reduced net cooldown while at the same time keeping enemies at bay when you use adrenaline due to the blue lightning, each with 300% base damage. so yeah, its not just mages that get "op" with q8.

q8 makes you deal 30% per hit at a 3 projectiles per cast. 90% dmg.
say you got into range just enough to proc adrenaline with q8 while mage spams. most likely with all the blue colors going around he wont notice the sudden lightning charge that took away more than half of his hp or potentially killed him.


ill say this one last time, rangers nor sw needs buffing/nerfing in pvp.
period.
if you want to keep looking at all the perks a class you dislike has, while ignoring their setbacks, thats well and truly your freedom to do so lol.

 

That sigris lightning is very useless in pvp. If you get hit by that lightning you're probably the biggest newbie or having some sort of terrible lag. And when you mentioned mages staying stagnant, it's the same for rangers and it's worse. You know why? Because we need to mark to do 300% otherwise it's just 150% and maybe 0 because we don't have the range to reach our enemies, whereas the mage does. Range advantage is way more devastating in pvp than you may think. Whole play styles and builds can revolve around one single flaw of the game.

And you said to this day, spellweavers have lowest end of damage on end bosses. I'm not sure where you've been since level40 but the lowest end damage on bosses was rangers for the longest time.

You said you play on your friend's ranger quite often. Are you also admitting to breaking ToC? Account sharing? So do you even actually own a ranger or invest in one?

 

Character class "discussions" have a long history of rapidly degenerating into a poop-flinging competition. We'll leave this open for now, but keep it civil or it will be locked. Be polite towards each-other and debate the topic, not target the poster. Cheers.