Feedback GAME REBALANCING FEEDBACK THREAD

If people who were able to easily solo infernals, they are going to get pissed
I hope our damage capabilities will remain the same

they said months ago that this wouldn't be a nerf

 

I'm one of those who spent time farming blood rune, aspd adornament, full dmg, helmet, full hp rings because they were usefull... err wait, they were the only thing I HAD TO DO; now you will give me back the time I spent to farm them isn't it? You will also convert em into crit/crit dmg stuff because I "didn't save em" on top of the things I needed to play my character by how it was designed, isn't it?
You will return me also my crafted 4/4 leg on my blood rune rifle isn't it? Also all the gold, gliphs and legendaries used to craft all this stuff right?
Pfff, who in his right mind could ever think the problem is all about a couple of gems? Take your USELESS onyxes, ppl like me have so many options outside DSO that it isn't even worth to bother. I've simply annihilated the idea that every build should use crits and only [EDIT] couldn't understand it.

 

Well, they aren't nerfing us... they are buffing the monsters.
And according to the arguments in the class war thread, buffing someone's opponent isn't the same as nerfing your favorite class. Anyone want to change their tune now?

Well, back to the feedback:
Earlier, someone mentioned that it costs copper/silver to reset Wisdom/Group skills (regular skill talents are free), and that is true, but it doesn't cost anything to switch between presets. Everyone gets two presets, premium gets three, and deluxe gets four. I also checked if you can switch your presets in dungeons, and you can, but only every 300 seconds.

Basically, when you enter the map and a count down starts on your Skills/Wisdom/Group page:

Once that gets to zero, you can switch presets, but that starts the timer over again and you need to wait another 5 minuets before you can change again. However, if you use one of the skills (such as the "Second Chance" death revive), this timer doesn't reset. So, if you have two or three identical preset builds with only the "Combat" skill different, you could conceivably cycle through them while the Combat skill you just used is on cool down. Changing maps resets the count down, so this cycle wouldn't be too useful in boss maps since it would be 5 min before you could make the first switch, but you could switch right before going into a boss map if you recently used one of the combat skills and it wouldn't make a difference because the timer would reset the moment you walked through the door anyway.

Also, if you have different builds for bosses vs normal maps, keep this in mind too, especially in short maps (Q1M2 for instance). I like to use Rage Attack against bosses and Rage Swing while clearing maps, but in Q1, I wouldn't be able to switch because the second map is too short and I'm not going to sit around for two minuets just to switch my build before the boss.

The other thing to consider with this is that if you want to allot all your points to HP/Damage/Special Skills, but then want to access the mobile shop/crafting bench, that will reset your timer you can't do it until you are five minuets into the map, and it will be another five minuets before you can return to your "main" build.

These timers are also independent, so if you change your wisdom preset, you are still able to change your skills or your group skills.

All this may sound like doom and gloom, but, there is a ray of sunshine... I started out by saying that changing Wisdom skills in a given wisdom/group preset can be done at a small costs copper/silver. The price is one copper per Wisdom point or three copper per group point. With how inexpensive this is, you could make almost any minor changes for less than 10 silver and most major changes for less than 50. So, going back to my skill presets point, I could simply unclick what I want to change manually switching to my boss build

Since the Devs are looking for feedback here is a simple one. Either remove the cool down entirely and reward us for picking our presets wisely, or remove the cool down and simply charge us the difference between the builds in copper/silver. Your only other logical option (one that would not be well received by anyone) is to remove the ability to change these by resetting skills in dungeons for copper/silver since that is what any sensible player will do. So, what will do you do? Make a common sense change, or upset all the players providing you feedback who now know this is a thing? Show us how you really feel about us.

Now, on to the DK wisdom and group skills themselves.
Wisdom:
Obviously, there is Second Chance, which looks to be universal for all the classes. The other two Combat options for DKs are a 10 second 50% block rate and 50% Block Strength buff... so basically any decent tank will go to 80%/80% for 10 seconds, and a 10 second buff of 55% armor/resistance... basically an enhanced Dragon Hide without the talents with a super long cool down. I'm less than impressed by both of these.
The rest of the skills match what we saw in the SW video already posted.

Group:
Auras:
Fire Resistance Buff for everyone in 20 meters, Base of 5.5% with +0.5% per level up to 30% (x50)
Increased HP for everyone in 20 meters, Base of 1% with +1% per level up to 21% (x21)
Five second armor buff granted every 30 seconds to everyone in 20 meters, Base of 5.3% with +0.3% per level up to 20% (x50)
Thoughts: I like the HP one... a lot. It replaces the old buff from Battle Frenzy it seems with a semi permanent aura buff. The Fire one is situationally useful (Q1, Q7), but most of the time, left over points after the HP one will go into the armor one, not because it is useful (it isn't), but because you will likely have points to spare. Five seconds is too short and having no control over when it happens means that it can't be easily used in specific settings, but every little bit helps.

Group Effects:
Smash: Crit hits with smash grant % Damage buff to everyone within 10 meters, Base of 5.5% with +0.5% per level, up to 30% (x50)
Bloody Wild Swing: Crits with Bloody Wild Swing restore %HP to all allies within 10 meters, Base of 1.4% with +0.4% per level, up to 21% (x50)
Banner of War: Everyone inside the Banner gets % attack speed, Base of 1% with +0.25% per level, up to 13.25% (x50)
Thoughts: Most of these are more useful for 2H DKs than 1H DKs since 1H DKs will be mostly be spamming Rage Attack and Outburst (BF) for regen and agro. For tanks, the most useful one will be the Banner of War skill, but due to the extents to which end game players go to tune their attack speed to speed breaks, it is not an amazing skill. However, 2H DKs already use Smash as their primary damage dealing skill. That means a high crit 2H DK will contribute a 30% damage buff with a nearly 100% uptime. The Bloody Wild Swing skill is interesting, but unless there are multiple monsters to statistically ensure a crit, it is unreliable. It also has a shorter range than some of the other group effects. Still, it could provide some much appreciated support for a group's tank in the form of extra % based HP regen for the primary tank. This would pair well with a build based on the Bear weapon due to it's dependence on bleed.

Momentum: All these skills cool downs reset on map changes, which helps with bosses
Outburst (Formerly Battle Franzy): Restores 100% HP and gives a +100% HP buff to allies in 10 meters for 20 seconds, 90 second cool down
Charge: Enemies hit by charge receive a 3 meter aura that lasts for 5 seconds and removes all resource costs, 90 second cool down
Dragon Hide: 75% resistance buff for everyone in 10 meters that lasts for 5 seconds, 90 second cool down

The first one (HP buff) is interesting, but if used by a tank holding agro, there will be no control over the timing of this buff. A support 2H DK could use it at key times to help everyone, but this style of play (and several of the other skills discussed above) will require a very flexible and adaptable play style that will take time to master. In a way, a 2H DK will be able to play both as support and as damage. The second one could be effectively used by either a tank or a support 2H DK at key times to allow for heavy burst damage. The down side is the short range, so there is risk to the squishy damage dealers if they move in to take advantage of this aura. For that reason, I'd recommend waiting to use this on a boss until after a nuke when you should have a couple seconds of relative safety. The final one is stupid... why only resistance? I don't see this being used very often except to buff the main tank before an elemental nuke, and even that is pushing it since most Tanks have high resistance anyway and resistance caps at 80% after all.

My impression of the group skills is that it makes the DK into a viable support class that can buff everyone's HP, help heal the tank and the group, and provide a strong damage buff to the team with a high up time. While the traditional tank roll will change very little with these group skills, the 2H DK has the opportunity to play creatively and intelligently in ways we've never seen before by constantly switching between different Momentum effects and be a true asset to the team.

 

Basically:

-Bloody Wild Swing is still useless, compared to other skills.
-Rage Jump not bad.
-Furious Battle Cry 5 points talent now totally useless. Too powerful first? lol
-Iron Brown ok
-Charge talent 5 points now less useful.
-Banner of War... now the only useful talent is that of 3 points. Why remove it ??? Too strong in pvp? lol new talent sucks.
-Fury of the Dragon: Finally. He was one of the useless talents.
-Battle Frenzy: Spend 5 points for an effect that is not even guaranteed... and useless in pve. In pvp, even better.
Conclusion: A lot of useless talents... created "randomly".

I hate the loss of 35% bonus speed of Banner of war. I hope to come back.

 

Piercing Hydra combined with Q4 bow can be a little uncomfortable for enemies, I like it.

 

OK, goodbye.

Metas change, and when they do, you either adapt or quit. I'm not a quitter, but feel free to be one.

Here is what I said in the past on the topic:

I won't expect that you would make the necessary crit gear in the past, but throwing away onyxes would have just been plain stupid. Also, now that the changes have been revealed, you have how ever long it is until the release to start collecting and crafting to prepare. And I'm sorry that you have to recraft stuff, but the changes will bring many people to a point where they need to reconsider some of their items... Mech's necessary changes are just more noticeable. For example, the hard core PvPers are going to want to know if 4/4 %IDotI weapons or 3/1 %IDotI/%ID weapons are still the best in PvP now that wisdom is disabled and I'll be taking a look at that math over the next couple days.

I'd agree with you, if it weren't for this:

A "Support 2H DK," especially one who relies on bleed for the Q4 set, could make great use of this, both in large mobs to augment/partially replace MWS while also supporting his team and in bosses to support the primary tank. Imagine giving the tank 21% of his HP back 3-4 times our of every five BWS. That is equivalent to a HP sphere every couple seconds. They'd love you! As I said in my last post, these changes will usher in a new era for 2H DKs where we are more than just damage, but are also awesome team support.

Your other likes/dislikes of the changes are mostly matters of opinion that I'm not going to even try to debate at this time, but your assessment of BWS (at least when considered for use in group) was so far off that I had to comment on it specifically.

 

It seems that amount of wisdom given to those already maxed out varies. Some are getting a couple hundred points, some are getting over 1200 points.

For those who have end game test characters, how are your stats compared ?

With 3175 possible wisdom to spend, I'm curious how far even those who got the max wisdom points stand up to the buffed monsters/bosses.

What if anything are you losing with limited wisdom points?

 

True, you're right, I had not read the new talents yet.

If 2H dk will work better in groups, this is great.

 

Serious feedback that MUST be addressed before this goes live:
Unless there is another way and I'm to dumb to see it, Jewels of Enhancement (and I'm assuming the Rune of Enhancement too) don't function with the new gem/rune crafting system.

 

You can choose now if you want to craft 4 equal item to have either random enchantments or transfer the enchantments from items.
Is it good to have this option or is it too confusing?

 

I haven't even begun working through that sort of analysis yet. I'm still looking at surface level things. I was mostly making a joke about all the complaints in the balancing/class war thread.

You're talking about this:

The only advantage this offers is cheaper crafting with 4 junk items of the same type so you know the type of item you will get when you try your luck at a gold line while doing a craft for your first category for dailies... and when I say "cheaper," I mean only about 40% cheaper for crappy odds. You can also get more slots than what you put in which may be helpful, but you can't recover any of the items since it is basically a Crafting 1.0 craft from years ago.

 

Careful with the salt, you are raising the blood pressure

Did you really think a class would be indefinitely able to ignore 2 offensive parameters out of 4?

Well, it's indirect nerfing

So it seems we have to kiss goodbye to easy solo farming of infernal bosses, instead of nerfing us like with level increases they nerf us indirectly, our offesive capabilities would be damaged

 

OK, I did a little bit of looking.

Even with tons of points, there is a slight "nerf" that isn't really a complete nerf. Currently, the 10 point skill, Behemoth, gives you 50% Weapon damage, but at the expense of 10% attack speed. In the new system, you put individual points into your 1H or 2H damage, but this maxes out at 40%. So, as soon as this hits live servers, we are going to have people all over the place complaining about their lost damage no matter how many knowledge points they have. Meanwhile, "Attack" is now "Rising Power," but both can give 50% damage total, so no nerf there.

So, Damage will go down, but attack speed will rise. The problem is that it will take 294 points just to max these two out, but at LVL 55, we will only have 222 points. So, right out of the gate, offensive power will drop... but that's not all. The most common point distribution right now is 20 points in HP (60% HP), 25 points in % Damage (50%), and 10 points in Behemoth (50% Weapon Damage, -10% Attack Speed). That 60% HP will also disappear as soon as this release goes live. Basically, players will have to chose between getting their damage back to where it was, getting their HP back, or trying to keep things somewhat balanced. If you distribute you points in the same ratios, 4/11, 5/11, 2/11, then your stats from LVL 55 Wisdom (accounting for the fact that each level of the 2H skill is twice as expensive as HP or % damage) you will find that you cant due to the total point that you can spend being different. But setting 60% HP as a bench mark, you'd be spending 45 points on HP to get 15/20=60%, leaving you 177 points to spend. Fortunately, 177 is divisible by three so we know we can divvy up the points between the two forms of % damage. My recommended split would be 144/177 in the Weapon Damage to max it out since you will get more out of it compared to your % Damage (which will compete with % damage on gear... multiplier math) leaving 33 points to get the % damage category to 11/50 which is 11%.

In summary, if you want to maintain your HP after the new release, you are looking at a loss of 10% Weapon Damage, a loss of 39% Damage, and a gain of 10% Attack Speed. Alternatively, you could lose 60% HP, lose 10% Weapon Damage, lose 24% Damage, and gain 10% Attack Speed.

Now, that is in the short term.

But in the long run, with sufficient points, I think that it will be possible to get back to and higher than current damage/DPS values because of the flexibility of helmets. Right now, helmets provide most 2H players with a large portion of their crit, but with the addition of "Decisive Strike" giving 0.8% crit and crit damage, with the % damage maxed out at 50/50, there are still 25 points that could go into crit and crit damage to give 20% crit and 20% crit damage. That would allow many players to sacrifice one or two lines of crit from their helmets and replace them with % damage to help them recover some of the damage lost from the Behemoth to 2H skill. Also, not having to deal with the 10% speed loss from behemoth means that people holding on to speed gems (like me) can safely replace one with an onyx and keep similar speeds while also improving the overall crit, further allowing for a transition to a more % damage based helmet. Without doing the in depth math, my initial impression is that the new meta may transition to helmets with 1x % Crit line and 3x % Damage lines.


One way or another, prepare yourself you the cries of anguish that await us on the forums when everyone is "nerfed." Even though they have the potential to be stronger than ever, people will be thinking about the here and now. Later, once we are closer to this release going live, I'll start the more in depth theory craft on skills because I'd hate to put the effort in and then have the developers pull the rug out from under our feet like they did with Crafting 2.0, but the PvE potential from these changes will make for some awesome DKs.

 

For the dwarves who are complaining:

I'm a steam mechanicous player. and I began to create critical damage many months ago by a simple logical thought.
For a mmorpg to sustain itself it needs to always keep new players. But I as a player who has only 1 year of play had no chance of competing with an old player with attack speed gems that can reach up to 70% extra speed while i could deal only useless damage with damage gems on adorment . That was something very frustrating for recent players, even if you work hard, would be limited to a time barrier, and obviously no mmo wants that. In the middle of October last year I started to change gradually to critical mode, with the thought : if I can not compete in damage I will try in critical, but even with a very high critical damage the temporal advantage of certain players still seemed very high in certain situations. So if you have at least two neurons able to reflect a little on such aspects during your evolution with the mechanic, would have realized that a change to critical damage would be something inevitable for the class, nerfing those who have old speed gems.

 

This sounds a lot like R185. An instant nerf (in the beginning), a boost in monsters, a dip in wisdom (from the start) and finally for those who don't quit, a major boost in dmg later setting off yet another round of calling for nerfs.

For the super OP and OP, dropping a bit in the beginning isn't a major deal, just like it wasn't with R185. However, those stuck on painful will be forced out of the PW and back to the boring useless maps.

That would be enough to make me finally quit this game for good.

I get the logic of DSO dev's as this will force a huge segment of the players to "buy" wisdom just to be able to get back close to where they were before this update. It worked with R185.

Although with this massive increase in possible wisdom, this could take a very long time for those who don't wish to break out the credit card.

The one good thing might be if enough players exit the game this time they will finally be forced to merge the ghost server with Agathon. Most people are not a glutton for punishment like us old timers.

I do wonder how many more times a community manager will promise no more nerfs only to prove that their word means nothing.

 

you might be right, but changing 100% of wisdom to 20% of wisdom is utterly unacceptable. players might be required to get some 10-25% extra due to new stuff, but such an inflation is clear way to pull more money from the players. this is rebalancing, not new level cap. wisdom should stay max or close for those who had it maxed out, and proportional for others.

 

Well guess what.
This all fits me like a glove
Firstly I have 3 darkness pieces (got a 4th just in case)
So I was already going 4x damage in my helm this new talent will just allow me to reach 80% on inf3 and I wont need to buy blood tooth (thank goodness)
As for my hp I already have zero skill points in it.
My 2 main secondary attacks are smash and mighty wild swing so for group buffs I am already suited too.

As for the wisdom any player that wants insane damage right of the bat you can invest 144 points into 2h weapon damage @ 5.5 per level gives you 132% weapon damage or am I wrong?
I could put the rest in attack speed and then gradually ad crit hp etc.

 

This is a magor nerf acorss the board
im most disaapointed by this , even with the many shinny new stuff that we asked for its hiding some collosal downgrades ....i cant see this in a postive way whatsoever.
as amage that is relativly new to the parrallelworld ~ +1 month. it have been extreemly hard for a mage to hold a ground during boss fights ,because of low armor\hp\ resistance ,and mostly becuase lack of armor breaking for bosses , thats right singulartiy dont affect boss .... these problems still completely ignored

instead, SW got:
good buff to forzen sphere
good buff to thunder strike
moderate buff to ice missiles

also SW got major nerfs:
destruction first talent changed from -50% mana cost ,to +5 mana per hit. why? anyone think distructin op in PVE? also, the group effect is underwhelming at best .
burn effect of fireball and meteor got a major nerf down from 90% to 15% , and 200% to 80% respectivly. still think q7 weapon got a buff?......
now time to adress the universal issues...
1- mobs got harder to kill ,and i noticed the healing sphere droped from regular mobs got reduced drastically .
2- inherited crafting has been removed? i hope its only a bug ,but im expecting the worst . for people didnt get the chance to get their 4 Goldlines legenderies `mainly newer generation` will have to depend on some atronomical figure to atleast get even 3 Goldlines.
3- i dont see the new talent have anything better than the old ones ,the old ones were neat and simple , this just seems like a clutter that will just end, by having worst stats.

all that being said, these changes are so disappointingg it hurts , you can throw in any amount of nice changes, but it can never make up for all these horrific changes .

 

Did you actually test anything or are you believing the rumors of people who have no clue what they are talking about? Go test it. I did.
And while we're at it, did you test any of this yourself, or are you simply drawing conclusions from a couple videos, some screenshots, and the comments on youtube and facebook?

No, it isn't.
It is a minor nerf to begin with with players eventually reaching heights that have never been reached before.
Rhysingstar described it well:

From there, he got a bit pessimistic, but the changes to Wisdom will significantly shift the meta of the game. Go play the content for yourself instead of just reading about it and watching videos. It is not the end of the world.

The only completely valid point you have is that the monsters were buffed too much, especially by giving them block. They need to be brought back in line to where they were before with no more than a 10%-15% increase in their survivability.

As it stands now, the monsters in solo maps feel like they've been balanced for a well rounded group or players with a bunch of the team buffs instead of balanced for a loan hero taking on the PWs by himself.