Suggestion General revamp, economy changes

I posted this in a comment on the wiki, giving an explanation how could the game work better and how could the economy of fast runs, which I hate, be removed once and for all.

I decided I should post it in forum with a poll, for a chance that something may change in the game.

They buffed up the monsters, but still everyone is playing what they can run fast... it's because of the broken game economy, the "economy of fast runs".
This means that it needs a different solution. For example a total economy revamp (in this order, all in one update preferably):

1. Make the crafting return all the 4 items on revert.
   • This fixes the imbalance that is created by random crafting with some people left unable to craft any better equipment due to low chances and some people actually crafting it.
2. Increase the platinum line spawn rate on items, increase the golden line spawn rate on items.
   • This should make finding the desired lines actually possible and more balanced between players.
3. Nerf the item drop rate slightly to compensate.
   • Reduces amounts of crap we're getting from mobs that makes us (sometimes) pick up items longer than we fight.
4. Increase the gold stack sizes (fix the Bonanza and similar buffs not working on higher stacks too) to compensate. Preferably merge lots of stacks dropped by minibosses and bosses into fewer larger stacks.
   • This allows us to get gold required for crafting attempts with less items dropping and allows glyph accumulation while actually earning gold, so that the new players can get gold for their first crafting attempts without actually halting their glyph progress.
5. Squish the item tiers (scaling down the stats). T8 is now T3, T0 is T0, T1-T4 is T1, T5-T7 is T2. Of course doesn't apply to legacy items.
   • This fixes the ridiculousness of higher and higher tiers that are coming, are stupidly, worthlessly, and boringly prolonging the progression path and allows the amendments that actually make the tiers make a difference in gameplay feeling other than some numbers on the state screen. On top of that, this increases the value of merchant items that come as t0, like gnob uniques. Currently, they're pretty daunting with their augmentation costs...
6. Remove the infernal modes from SND (scaling normal dungeons).
   • They don't make sense there. They were supposed to be some strange, warped thing existing in PWs only and had to be added to SND due to item tiers of them ending at t3 and thus rendering most of the equipment from SND useless or at least too expensive. They're not needed there anymore, thanks to next two points.
7. Remove all the infernal modes except for inf1 (renamed simply Infernal) from PW and events.
   • As stated above, that's a stupid ladder of inflation and growin' numbers. Please, remove it... it's only boring and daunting to new players.
8. Infernal mode now doesn't have a new item tier, it requires Fragment of Infernal Passage, it has a good increase of progress drop, leaderboard points and currency drop.
   • It's supposed to be a mode for high-end players that allows them doing events faster, farming currencies faster for various things etc. (VISIBLE increase, as stated)... no new tier, just harder mobs, infernal debuff and progress/leaderboard/currency gain, generally a challenge. If ingredients ever come to PW, it could serve as a source of legendary ingredients.
9. SND can be entered in normal mode too.
   • When you enter a dungeon or wilderness, you choose whether to enter the scaling version, where you can choose a mode (normal to fatal), or the not-scaling version, locked at normal. Scaling Wildernesses are dungeons similar to the Great Desert. Great Desert could perhaps be entered as a normal wilderness, too. This point is related to the next point's resource rarity division.
10. In normal mode you get white ingredients with a chance for green, in painful you get green with a chance for blue, in excru you get blue with a chance for purple, in fatal you get purple with a chance for legendary.
    • This puts more depth and difference between modes. Also, this way the legendary resources required for the highest tier would be harder to farm, prolonging the very end of the end while the previous rarities would be left intact.
11. Allow gem crafting from ores. Higher tier ores yield more gems.
    • Gems for cloaks, gems for prism jewels, gems for dust to upgrade jewels, on top of gems to put in your equipment - isn't it too much, especially with the low gem drop rate we have? We need a steadier way to farm gems. On top of that, it makes grey-rarity ores actually useful somehow, and makes people go to specific regions when they need specific gems - allowing actual farm of gems. Currently, it is just like "farm anything, pick up gems along the way" with no way to actually influence it by farming something specific.
12. Bring back sapphires with flat speed bonus. Characters created before R185 get a free pack of 5 flawless sapphires.
    • This adds build diversity... it has been discussed countless times, we need sapphires to make game more interesting and diverse... especially with how simply it is to make.
13. PW uniques can be obtained on T1, T2 and T3. All the uniques have some special (read: not only state-buffing) unique values. So, for example: while Q4 weapon for ranger adds a bleeding effect to spread shot, the belt would give blade dance a stunning effect; while Q4 weapon for mage increases lightning dmg, the belt would add a chance to stun to the lightning strike (literally the old version of 5p. talent)
    • T1 has only the unique value (and maybe the state-buff-only set bonuses).
    • T2 gets the set bonuses.
    • T3 gets additional set bonuses or the existing get improved compared to T2.
      • This would make gameplay more interesting, would add more incentive to update to larger tiers, etc. Generally, the higher tiers and modes should have more differences than just numbers. It should be visible gameplay-wise.
14. PW bosses get a bunch of new skills every mode. Infernal should get brand new skills... skills we don't have now at all. Maybe it could even be that infernal is to lower modes as PW to normal world - completly warped.
    • The current skills should be divided between excru and fatal, with a bunch of skills coming every mode. This, again, makes playing the higher modes feel completly differently, with something more changed than just numbers. Currently playing inf3 with stats good for inf3 feels almost exactly the same as playing painful with stats good for painful - generally, only some numbers are different. This really takes away the incentive to improve your character, especially that it almost doesn't matter in PvP.
15. Rebalance the sets.
    Spoiler: Example

    Special effects have to be removed from the Q7 buff for ranger, dwarf and DK. That means no more EA spam/HS spam/quicker smashes during the buff.
    Meanwhile, to the ranger Q7 set an all-time 25 concentration flat cost reduction of EA has to be added. This means that EAs cost less, are easier to be spammed and buff independent... but the buff is not broken... or soon will no longer be.
    To the dwarf Q7 set, a 50% reduction of the heavy shot cooldown could be applied.
    To the DK Q7 set, a 50% rage cost reduction of Smash could be applied.
    Then, the buff has to be made 7 seconds for every class... but with a cooldown of 20 seconds. Of course, all of these numbers could be changed later if it was needed (generally, if the testing ingame proved that there is still imbalance/there is new imbalance).
    Regarding Q8 set, its "triple bolts" effect for dwarf should be removed, instead it should increase the Mechanical Turret damage by 20% (the multiplier SW gets from his set) and it's shots should explode after hitting an enemy, dealing their damage in a small AoE (rebalancing against other possibilities).
    Then, the lightning from the ranger's and DK's versions should crit.
    Buff the set bonuses of Q4 set for all the classes (currently the best bonus comes from the weapon, and it should come from the set bonus).
    Buff the set bonuses of Q5 set for ranger and mage (make the clones use some more skills after the initial one).
    Fix the numerous Q9 set bugs (they were reported long ago), also make it crit.
    Buff the Q2 set generally (rebalancing against 2h).
    Buff the set bonuses of Q1 set for all the classes slightly (rebalancing against q8).
    Buff some sets from the regular world.
    • One meta set with everything else way behind it seriously makes a game dull and breaks the diversity. Metas exist in games, the problems come when going off the meta renders you severly crippled compared to a meta gameplay.
16. Rebalance the skills, wisdom combat talents, and group effects... in order the make the unused ones actually useful.
    • Examples: Fireball of mage (burning effect should either stack - which makes no sense, or be dumped all at once after suffering the next hit from fireball), Blade Dance group effect of ranger (just like other weak Group Momentums and wisdom Combat talents, cooldowns and durations should be rebalanced)... I could go on, but there are too many to list them here.

I firmly believe implementing the above 16 points would fix all the problems with the game economy, would make it more fair, and would add some diversity the game desperately needs.

Now, other things like Infinite Dungeons and puzzles (read the thread I linked) would of course make the game more interesting and would make people stay longer.

TL;DR: If this message seems long, it sadly is... but, as a tip for the reader, only the main points are the suggestion. Bulleted comments below each point are only comments, explanations, reasons, etc., so to get a grip of the suggestion read only the main points.

Real TL;DR(for fellow players only, devs please read the whole post): Make crafting more fair, stop the tons of the infernal modes coming, squish the tiers, make the tiers more interesting for players, rebalance the sets, fix the bugs.

 

lol
Just think about what youre saying here
youre saying this:
Dear dev team
Please rework the whole game, not this or that but the whole game
dear dev team please change all the uniques, all the classes, all the bonuses, heck even make all the players redo all their equipment.
oh and dear dev team, please nerf q7 so that the gap between other classes and mages can be tripled

Are you kidding me?

 

Yes. If they don't, they are probably going to lose their jobs soon... as a part of cost reduction strategy in a dying game. It's the last moment to revamp stuff like that. People keep leaving the game. Yes, the game isn't closing too soon, people are buying stuff... but the overall amount of people playing is declining. This means that the revenue shall decline quite soon, and then the devs will be fired (and then the game will exist without them and without updates for ~2 years).

What have you been smoking?

It's clear you didn't even read my tl;dr. Just admit it, you've just glimpsed at my post and read nothing of it.

R155 and R185 were clearly larger than what I'm suggesting here. I'd even argue some other updates were larger.
If they could "rework the whole game" then, they can do it again... this time properly.

 

Those were expansions....
you want them to casually do it mid working on new content <-- demanding much?
And I did read everything and it EDIT in general
In short youre asking waaaaay to much and you will upset the whole player base as I've stated before

 

And you posted this because of "economy of fast runs"!?

Yup, that would be called "fast clicking craft mode" ... Nonsense. I could understand crying out for 3 slots revert but all four is just rude!

Other things you wrote, and I red, really don't know why after

part of first sentence in your "Russian classics" style (long and boring to death) post, which describe the reason, are also whining in style "I can't do it/I'm bored doing it" - why don't you make me happy and do it as I want!? Again nonsense ....

All except maybe royal blue but even that is too late.

You want q7 set to be demolished but on the other hand adding MORE bonuses on every tier up sounds normal and making game balanced!? Then you for sure don't know when this game start to asking for injections here and then (let me help you - when set bonuses appeared).

But @ the end You've make it easier to understand how selfish all above was:

Make up for : DO IT AS I WANT OR YOU EDIT

 

No constructive criticism, no constructive arguments on what is wrong. Just venomous hate. What is the point of spitting that?

 

It would make the craft "too easy" and boring, if you have a lot of golds you spam the craf buttom and get your item full yellow lines.
I prefer how that is now.

 

And where does gold come from?

Farming.

 

Sometimes even criticism is giving an importance to something not worth it and I have no intention doing it with this topic.

I DID explain what I think about it, very precise and descriptive.

Look, I'm sorry if my "poison darts " (which there's none) hurts your feelings, but it is better than I go to details.

Splitting your post and explaining to you how every part of it is wrong is waste of my, and everyone who's reading time.

How did I describe this on my first post - as a nonsense , why. cuz they are all nonsense!

Well, making 100% success with crafting IS nothing else than that, platinum lines drop rate is just fine IF you put an effort /spend time and you are even too lazy to pick up a drop but on the other side, want more gold for 100% success crafting ... (I am talking to you as an author willing to argue, nothing personal).

And all mining complexity, destroy Improved and Magic Royals ... ok!

Which problems? Whose problems?!

This is like "If you don't implement all these things THAT I WANT, you are all noobs" and with your pool title (like it is done deal just need permission to be done) it seems like you really think it should be discussed?

Sorry, but no.

 

so what? that's how it was on the test server before some german whine about it and BP changed it

Besides, you need to farm to get gold so what's the problem?
Now it isn't easy or difficult, it dependes on how much you're lucky, which is the opposite of difficulty

 

1: have no issue with it, crafting costs are insane as it is with such poor chance if ever to suceed
2:low drop rate would be ok if 1 is implemented
6:do not agree with this one, some players prefer to play in scaling dungeons over pw, i do myself sometimes just to have different maps then pw all the time
7:do not agree i like having many modes, gives noobs something to work up to
11:will never happen gems are if i had to guess one of the big $$$ points for bp
16:yes agree here skills need rebalanced or some taken out and replaced, its not great when you dont use half of the skills u got...
15:i HIGHLY AGREE on this one, this might be a bit long but i can offer a dwarfs perspective on this

so for dwarfs we got q7 sets and q4 set(i have both tier 8 and crafted so they are really close to equal)
q4 is giving me 20% dmg on my tesla and its bigger, the dmg increase is not even noticable compared to using q7, the increased size is and its the best part about it imo

q7 is giving me no cooldown on heavy shot after i rocket (50% speed too) so i can spam it like mages spam frozen sphere or rangers exsplosive shot, but dont get me wrong here its not as great as it seems compared to the other class spaming their skills as it is not really an aoe skill like theirs is but you have mechanical turets shooting as well to make up for it some

this is one of the reason other class clear maps faster, because we have to set the turets up then fight, in that few seconds they can have the mobs already blown up, in my playing time the class that does this the most is rangers without a doubt they blow everything up before i get a chance to do dmg 90% of the time

q8 is giving us more shots on mechanical turet when we critical(80% in inf3-4 is easy)and we are getting the cd reduction from those extra shots as well. q8 on its own is not broken or op or even when combined with q4 its only *broken* because it goes with q7 so well

the wisdom skill dwarfs have also goes with q7 as well(5% cd reduction/sec when standing near turets)

so you see what combines with q4 to make it more powerfull? NOTHING, what combines with q7 to make it op? q8..wisdom skill..

what makes q7 so "broken" or "op" for dwarfs it as stated above the other set/wisdom skill stacking with it and.....

the increased dmg it gives is the BIG "broken" part of this set 150%, q4 set cant compete with this with a crap 20% dmg buff to tesla? LOL

now here is the interesting part q7 makes q8 op on bosses its reversed, weird right?
did you know:if u use red essence and place my turet then swich back to white it will keep the dmg?
did you know:if i rocket with q7 then place the turet(s) they keep the dmg from the 150% buff?
and if i do both? i get my 150% dmg the dmg from the ess with spending next to no ess

that method is more so for solo play,in a group there is usually a tank or a 2h war with his banner of war so we just use 2 mechanical 2 machine and spam rocket to maintain the dmg buff

last note on this, heavy shot without q7=useless, mechanical without q8=kinda useless(i prefer over tesla and machine because it shoots mobs and i dont gota "aim" it sry if this is long but its not so simple as "oh nerf this set" blah blah ya know?

some economy issues i have since they raised the mob/boss difficulty, since this thread is about well just that..
if maps take longer and boss take longer why am i not getting more..
cores
andermant
realm fragments

my group i play with and myself are all above 40k dmg some 50k+ you know what mode we did the last pve season on? fatal....
infernal is just a pain in the ass the difference between fatal and even inf 1 is huge, i can do 2 fatals in the time to do 1 inf1 so why bother? i will get more and faster on fatal...2 fatal=10 cores 1 inf1=6...
how noobs get pristine cores? put them in the chest on all modes...

realm frags: just bother me that its faster to farm fbi painful when i can do inf3 just fine for frags...why not give more on inf3...? stupid
why is fbi so good for realms??? other maps crap drop rate i notice this and everyone i ever play with notice is so its not just me that map has better drop of realms

 

Look at this man! He's just got everything wrong again!

The best reply to you is this quote:

What part of it do you not understand?

You see... the point I'm trying to make... the problem is, "noobs", or rather newbies, have no reason to work there. As I said:

and

Why to work to be able to play inf3, when, when you get right there, it's the same as if you played painful - only the difficulty name is different, and some numbers on your character statistics screen. It would make sense if it all worked in PvP, but even then seeing dozens of difficulties would be daunting to newcomers.

You're wrong. The most money they are making from deluxe, which people buy for easier glyphing of eq and for cubes, which they need for platinum lines... and from the new event attires, judging by how many people are buying them. This opens the way of making the gem farming more straightforward. It doesn't have to be OP - grey ore can give 1 flawed gem and legendary ore can give 5 - but it'd be important that it'd be there, letting people farm for gems. Currently, gems can't be really farmed, you just farm stuff and the gems come - in a bigger or smaller amounts, depending on what's the drop rate currently.
The game has given so much focus to crafting that I'm sure they could seriously consider adding such a mechanic, even without the rest of my economy rebalancing.

Yes, it's supposed to be that way. The turret consumes essence only when it's being built.

I suggested in the original post a possible solution to that, that would be very flexible, and once made could be used to rebalance everything just by changing the damage. Credit for Q8 solution (exploding shots instead of multiple) goes to Baragain.
And yes, I did the math, the numbers are not some random numbers.

Generally, that's what I call "economy of fast runs". Everybody is running the difficulty they can run fast, because while that way they get more resources.
Core drops are theoretically balanced with the crafting prices - crafting price in cores for item on a tier are exactly 50 times bigger than a single drop stack size from a boss on the mode of the tier. However, the drop stack size does not compensate for the increased mob strength, making people choose only the mode that they can do almost as comfortably as the modes lower than that.

Now, with my suggestion implemented, there is real incentive to farm higher modes.

"currency gain". Perhaps I haven't made myself clear enough, but currency refers here to all the currencies: realm frags, materi, clovers, andermants, gold...

The drop rates are a complicated thing. We don't really know what do they depend on, we can only make assumptions.

 

What is proposed could / should represent a reasonable basis for this game, in at least 11-12 points out of 16, but it is something that should have been implemented since the beginning of times, that is, since this bunch of improvised people (if they are more than one) inherited the game management.

Today, after the players threw thousands of hours to reach the point where they actually are, introducing such a revision / revolution seems to me far beyond the limit of impracticality, even more for political reasons than for purely technical questions (and this is all a saying,....).

That said, I judge a bit too extreme some of the things you proposed, such as recovering all the items after a craft gone bad, because this would mean endless attempts available ... but anyway it still seems to have some sense: if you play a lot, you have a lot of gold and your reach faster the best result; if you play less even being able to always recover everything, the limit will be given by the low amount of gold owned by the player.

 

His idea don't change the crafting cost. If you are curently limited by golds, this idea don't will change a lot of things for you, just you will search less gold lines.

 

@vegetadavid it doesnt reduce the cost no you are right but it does make it so you can craft with better items(4 good instead of 2 junk 2 good) so you have more chance to acatually suceed thus reducing the cost for most people

regarding the gems and premium/deluxe yeah you are right did not think about that at the time, i myself have bought it for the cube mainly and the gems from them

making mechanical turets do exsplosive shots fine my me but they would have to hit enough dmg to be worthwhile, i remember in a previous thread somewhere i suggested making them shoot "mini frozen spheres" since the set is frost based, that or they need to replace the 5 point skill to something like:your shots now exsplode dealing 25% to all mobs in like a 3 m area or something, with that talent q8 could just increase the dmg and turn it into frost dmg or slowing effect

 

You are certainly not the first player to ask the dev's to fix their mistakes, and you certainly won't be the last, but it's not going to happen.

I get that it is fun to beat your head against the wall every so often (I still check the forum to see if a new dev team has been hired), but at some point you have to accept that the player base isn't big enough to warrant fixing the game. Their only option at this point is to milk what they can out of the very few people who are still willing to pay to play before closing the game down.

 

How about generally boosting dks after all the dk nerfs so we can get a bigger player base again?
This includes pvp and pve.
How about boosting dk base skill damage to make us actually viable in solo play like every other class?
"oh but dks have regen" regen is nothing if we get 1 hit by infernal 4 mobs...
How about keeping it 2 craft results return because it actually makes a player work for something in this game?
Also how about nerfing frozen sphere and lightning strike so that mages even if they abuse potions with 1 second cooldown do not break the game?
Also how about making the q7 bonus for spellweavers 50% fireball attack speed and bringing it down to 3 seconds of 150% increased damage
Also how about making the bonus go away when you switch gear so that it does not get abused by spellweavers
"oh but ive seen a dk do it and oh but ive seen a ranger do it " who are you lying to?
how about spellweavers leaving the game as it is with their broken stats.
Quick to say but dks have regen when you can tank with 40k armor and 30k resist
If spellweaver are so grand grand as to have insane defences the reason for your damage is not self explanitory...
FYI: Dks complaining...
Youre very quick to refer to my "trash build" but the list of q7 dks is big and they dont have 40k dmg like me, they have 56k dmg like Ari, 60k damage like Vaandaa 56k damage like Zmek all higher damage dks all q7 wielders

 

Totally disagree with you
In pvp with same gear warrior is much better than a mage. When a mage jump = dead and everyone knows it. If you play good, you can even perma stun a mage. A mage is good vs warrior in flag when you are carrying it, yes...
In pve you have more life, more armour, more resistances, life regen and moreover you want now even more damage than a mage.
I have nothing against a revamp of the warrior, but if you want more damage and more ranged skills, I'm expecting that you should have a nerf on your defensive skills, because I don't get why you should deal the same or more amount of damage of the other classes why you have much more defenses.

 

looool
I dont know if you are new to dso or if you just tell yourself things to justify the insane stats possible with a mage
What did you think I meant with them tanking solo inf3/4?
Did you think I meant they go stand and take damage to generate rage?
Because all ranged classes have slow now even at bosses.


Yes yes I see it now w have more armor and more resist

Oh wait.... :/


And these are the defensive stats of an alpha dk

Yes yes its clear to me now
Oh wait...

more armor more resist
oh wait we dont even have slow
only some hp that can be 1shot on inf4 almost anytime

And fyi q7 dks deal much less damage than other classes of the same set
they deal 1200% base per second mages and rangers 1500%++ per second and mecs 2200% base per second
And yet I will repeat this dks do not have slow at a range, on the contrary we have some skills that slow within range but non spammable, and our slow is insignificant compared to other classes like mages for example
Especially mages since they have insane slow and killer damage and good armor and resist and decent hp, they dont even need to utilize hp armor or resist due to their slow they kill so fast that mobs and ranged mobs cannot compete with them on any level.
Okay cool mages have insane damage give it to them, but then to make them feel like dks do nerf their armor resist and their slow by min 30%
Maybe get your facts straight
And this everything rework crap is just bored mages with nothing more to do in the game, but find hidden secret buffs once again...

 

I would generally agree with q7 for Sw change, but of course ( in your style) you forget that meteor has 60 second cooldown while net has 10 rocket has 25 and the dk has10 or less. Second comparing a nonbuffed dk ( who ofc will take hp physic and Block buff that will make him block whole having 200k hp vs 130hp of sw) , the dk s dmg wont be bigger than the sw using bloodrune staff but it will be better than the q7 user, because 2.99 atack speed sw is equal to 60k dmg dk due to speed and sets differences. That Dk is heavily opted for dmg as seen his absurdly low resist stat , which is the worst way u can go for a Dk , then comparing it to A SW who has more defence than offense.So the comparison between the last 2 pictures is literary a meme , then we can take into account the first picture, which is buffed sw , vs ......unbuffed dk with memebossa set instead of dragan defensive set. Plus acconting crit inflation means q7 users and q4 too can get 3.63 speed which automatically makes Bm sw out of the picture and straight in the trash can. dK s deal 5-6 smashes per second which is 5x240 -the worse case scenario = 1200 vs 3,5 x 1435 dmg of sw , rangersr deal 3.5x 500= 1750 and mects of course 2500 % dmg. considering healing capabilities of dk ---> which we can visibly see on taht dk s toolbar , he hasnt bought any potions he doesnt neeed em, he is pearma healed , so the best thing that can be done is making offsets for dk good or making hos total combo 1350, otherwise getting to sw's dmg , while also healing for free , not needing mana potions and putting only 10% less dmg is literary the most worth thing. Also u cant increase smash s base , because you will affect pvp and make Dk the best in pvp m while he is one of the top classes already. You cant look at pve and ignore pvp.

Edit: quick note , before u try to be a secretary for endgamers, first get there urself, thank you

About the actual topic , a lot of the things nail the problems of the game atm, and im generally liking the whole post and most of the things are spot on, good job and thanks for taking time to write them down