2H DPS Builds: Post R208

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by _Baragain_, Apr 26, 2018.

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  1. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Me neither... especially from the PoV of a DK. I'd lose too much HP Regen/HP/Rage.
  2. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Ambassador

    Wait, how exactly is %WD from the bellicose set applied? What I see from your spreadsheets, it is calculated over the %DotI, instead of being added to it. I thought it's just like the essence bonus, which is added to overall %D.
  3. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    %WD is Weapon damage, it applies on total damage value of the weapon.

    Sorry Baragain for stealing your answer ... I am usually not replying this kind of questions but I am pissed off today ... so i better stay away from posting in the forum today before I get banned :D
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  4. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    No problem, and plus, you had to know that I'd come along and add my two cents anyway. Long story short, there are three types of damage multipliers. The most well known and common one is % Damage. This is found on torsos, helmets, belts, wisdom, essence, some buffs, and set bonuses. This multiplier is applied to all the sources of damage. The second type of damage multiplier is % Increased Damage on this Item (%IDotI) which multiplies the base damage of the item and, in the case of weapons, any rubies on the weapon. A bunch of items can have %IDotI (weapons, uniques' base enchantments, helmet/amulet runes, or gloves/boots), but the only one that most care about is the weapon. The rest don't have enough base damage to make an impressive difference, especially when compared to other stats that can be crafted, especially not DKs. The final damage multiplier is the %WD. It is used to multiply the base damage and rubies on the weapon.

    To give you an example of why this is important, lets look at a really basic calculation. Imagine you have 1500 "pure" damage from gear, base character damage, and bonuses. Then, imagine you have 1000-1300 damage from your weapon/rubies. Now, lets start putting the multipliers in and I'll show you what happens if you just count %WD in with one of the other categories. Because I'm feeling lazy right now, I'll only do the max damage. I'll say we are looking at 80% WD, 300% IDotI on the weapon, and 120% damage for nice round numbers.

    The right way:
    ((1300*(1+3.00)*(1+0.80))+1500)*(1+1.20)=23892 max damage

    The wrong way, with %IDotI:
    ((1300*(1+3.00+0.80))+1500)*(1+1.2)=17028 max damage

    The wrong way, with %D:
    ((1300*(1+3.00))+1500)*(1+1.2+0.8)=20100 max damage

    See what I mean? Breaking the Weapon Damage out into it's own multiplier has a huge affect which is what makes it so valuable. Also, because it is in it's own term, it improves the efficiency of essence, where as including it as a part of the %D would dilute the % based essences.
  5. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    Something interesting I would like to share and give you a bear in mind....
    Yes it is true Q7 gives you 150% increased damage (on all classes)
    But according to the videos I have made the damage from q4 is quite different.
    You see you deal an additional 25% damage to currently bleeding foes with rageful swing.
    So depending on your build and damage multiplier the increased damage dealt is quite different.
    Example lets take 30 000 damage as an example, that would turn to hits that is based on 37500 damage instead of just 30k plus whatever the increased base damage is.
    Doc understands this and that is why he says the difference between Q7 and Q4 on reds is minute.
    Same with smash once an opponent bleeds it deals 25% more damage.
    Hey Doc, can't wait to see your math on Q4 xD
  6. gbit

    gbit Forum General

    This is for Phyrix; I’ve tried to make some calculations on your build (I based myself on Baragain’s spreadsheet for values and unique stats).
    I worked on this sheet for some time, till I can’t find errors but is possible that there are mistakes that I haven’t seen yet; I’m not so confident with end game values and unique stats and bonus, so on this work is Baragain that must have the last word…

    1) Items All T6 and lvl 60
    2) Max gems and runes
    3) Wisdom(lvl 200): max damage; max weapon damage; 24%crit/crit dam; 15% Att Speed

    With 3x%damage, 1x%crit on helmet and 4x%CotI on the adornement you have an huge overflow on crit (>29000), so in the sheet i put 4xDam on helmet and 3xCotI+1xCritDam on adornement, and in this way it is possible to have 80% crit and an increase of damage and crit dam (also with 120%CotI and a shappire for an onyx i wasn’t able to reach the next speed breakpoint for rageful swing or smash).

    Green section: no set bonus, no bleeding, only plain damage for hit
    Yellow section: set bonus, bleeding from only rageful swing (that I assume as base hit)
    Red section: set bonus, bleeding from rageful swing and bloody wild swing (double bleeding effect)

    I think rageful swing plus bleeding is the normal way to go, but the combo RS+BWS (with double bleeding) is also simple to sustain in time (not only for few seconds)

    I don’t have mentioned smash because things became more harder in terms of timing of skills, and I want to see what Baragain takes out.


    I repeat, I try to make a good work but mistakes are always possible due to inexperience; if someone wants to check my calcs and give me advice and comments, I will just be glad....:)

    Disclaimer: Intellectual Property and layout of the sheet are of Baragain™; every mistake is mine of course...:D

    P.S. sorry for my english...
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
    Phyrix and Zoltan like this.
  7. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    I like this but theres a few things I would like to point out... did you calc rageful swing at 1.25? edit (nevermind I see you put in base hit sorry)
    Also bws I see you have it at 45% the bleed I mean, let me show you something

    Other than that thanks your calcs seems awesome, will see what @_Baragain_ says about this.
    Am sure you saved him a lot of effort.
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
    gbit likes this.
  8. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Give me another 96 hours to finish farming Leaderboards and I promise I'll come back and give this thread the love it deserves. I'm a chronic procrastinator, so now that I'm in crunch time, I'm sufficiently motivated to farm heavily.
    gbit and Phyrix like this.
  9. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    Same, am even delaying lb maps even more by farming monstrorum xD
  10. gbit

    gbit Forum General

    I've modified the sheet, thanks...I take the values from Trakilaki old wiki post on r208 prewiew, I don't have the acces to TS, so I have to search news from other users...:)
    thank you again.
    :) I don't think so :)
    he will make the sheet on his own and then he will point out surely a lot of thing I've never think about...:D

    I've done my few gold in LB a week ago so I got time for enjoy in studying Q4 build...:eek::D

    EDIT: i found a mistake in my sheet...I will post new calcs as soon as possible (10% crit hit in ring, is not possible; it was the rest of one of my try for best build)

    EDIT 2: new sheets (correct, I hope)
    1. 3 darkness; 2 new moon; 3 dragan (2+ring); Q9 amulet; agathon ring


    2. 3 darkness; 2 new moon; 3 dragan (2+ring); Q9 amulet; agathon ring
    Helmet 3%Dam+1%Crit; adornement 3%CotI+1%CDam (Phyrix build)


    3. 2 darkness; 2 new moon; 3 Dragan; Q9 amulet; agathon + bloodtooth
    Helmet 3%Dam+1%Crit; adornement 3%CotI+1%CDam


    again I'll wait till Baragain takes out his sheets for analysis, and maybe correction to this work; if you find mistakes please tell me and I will correct...
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
    Javah likes this.
  11. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    @gbit I think we will have to wait for baragain
    Thing is theres stuff like rs doing 25% more damage during bleed and then theres the damage you put out for the bleed from rs and bws.
    Which is why my calculated dph for rs during bleed is much higher than yours as is bws damage, I assume these of yours are non crits
    which I figure is great if you want to calculate total damage non crit wise but running those numbers while you play is a lot higher obviously due to 80% crit
    gbit likes this.
  12. gbit

    gbit Forum General

    rs doing +25% damage during bleed is calculated;
    min and max damage are without crit; dps is with the crit.
    I don't calculate DPH because the bleeding effect runs over time so it seems to me better to find DPS
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  13. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    Now I understand, I usually calc rs at dph because they bleed after the first hit so bleed is the majority of the time
  14. gbit

    gbit Forum General

    in one second you are able to use bws and rs, then after another second you see the two bleed damage showing up, so I calc the bleed damage in a second plus the damage of rs (suppose continous and base hit) with the attack speed, all this with crit obviously...:).
    when finish the effect of bws, then bws again and Always rs; is correct supposing combo like this?
    what I obtain is, more than a DPS, a sort of Dpi, I think...
  15. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    Correct, which is what I have been trying to point out to people, example:
    damage in base 17 to 22k
    Rs @ 1.25 = 21750 - 27500 during bleed x crit and attack speed + bleed from rs + bleed from bws.
    iow ticks
    t1 = rs+bws
    t2 = rs @ 1.25 @ x attacks per second + 25% bleed + 82% bleed x critical damage = calculated damage per second
    t3 = rs @ 1.25 @ x attacks per second + 25% bleed + 82% bleed x critical damage = calculated damage per second
    t4 = rs @ 1.25 @ x attacks per second+ 25% bleed + 82% bleed x critical damage = calculated damage per second
    t5 = rs + bws but opponent is still bleeding so keep him bleeding
    Same with smash
    t1 rs + bws
    t2 = 2x bleed plus smash @ 265% (depends on banner of war or not etc)
    gbit likes this.
  16. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Based on the math provided, it doesn't appear that the difference between the various Q7 and Q4 builds are dramatic in basic numbers, which is what I initially expected.

    If someone maxes out (runes/gems) either seem to be fine.

    So the 64,000 dollar question is "When killing bosses solo", will there truly be a noticeable difference in the amount of time it takes?
  17. gbit

    gbit Forum General

    the +25% damage of set bonus is of the same type of the +20% (3 points talent); are +% on smash damage; so the two %D must be summed.
    we have to apply +20%+25% = +45% to the smash damage and we have:
    Total smash damage = ((base damage)*200%)*45%
    is base damage @ 290% not smash @ 265% (against bleeding foes)
    I asked this question in the italian forum and they confirmed me that it works in this way.
    I haven't the Q4 set, I can't test it, so can you please confirm me too that is in this way?

    I don't have the experience to answer this question (my opinion, without calcs, it will take nearly the same time, or little more; but is only an opinion, no fact...:))
    I think we must see what Baragain will say about this argoument...
  18. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    LBs are done. I spent a bunch of the gold on crafting, and now that I'm not distracted, I should have time to work on these problems tomorrow (well, later today since I'm an idiot and up past midnight). First things first, I'll be revisiting the opening post and other calculations and fixing the rune issue, then I'll move on to a build assessment of the Bear set, and finally, I'll do my best to do a damage comparison between the builds. Should be an interesting couple of days.
  19. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    Then I am the one thats wrong.
    I had only assumed, not did proper research on it.
    The guys on the italian forum has to be correct though I would think.
    I was perplexed last night, I discovered my smash does 115k to 130k against bleeding foes and 85 to 90k when they dont bleed.
    (this was with blues, I am not that strong yet lol)
    Lets wait and see what your findings hold :)
    Well one of the strongest dks with Q4 takes 35 seconds (inf2) while @Slabutul9 can do it in 17 seconds vs Arachna on inf2 (using Q7)
    You have many things to factor in Florins' case though he has 3 x solstices behind him if you look at his rage points (@_Baragain_ beats him there) So had drhorrible not left the game for a year he probably would have been stronger than florin for one.
    Anyways know that not all players have 2, 3 or even 4 solstices behind them so every single bit of critical hitrate matters.
    Where Florin himself on top of his 3x xmass runes still uses blood tooth.
    Heck I was busy during December so I never even finished the 3rd challenge for Kranparus.
    So to beat slabotuls time you need an uber build on Q4
    Which is why I opted for 3 darkness pieces and will need to have 4x damage in helm and increase cd to 5x and will have to have 75% damage from the wisdom (otherwise there will be no way to beat his time)
    As far as my opinion goes theres only 2 people that can beat his Q7 time if they used Q4 and thats slabotul himself and maybe baragain considering he has 4x solstices behind him.
    Q7 users has the advantage of cooldown on things like banner of war and groundbreaker so they can feed the damage constantly
    Q4 users has that increased damage during bleed and constant bleed.
    What makes Q4 unfeasible before R209 is that they have to cater for healing too.
    Now with the group skill they can regen a lot more often.
    This makes Q4 more valid in the new release.
    Anyways I talk too much xD
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  20. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I'm starting on my recalculation, but regarding the Christmas events, there have only been three that offer the 4%/4%/4% rune, and I only have three too. So no significant difference here.