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I don't consider dance as an escape skill. While the ranger is performing the dance animation, real location of the character is already at the landing position and is vulnerable to damage (If you don't believe me if you can test this). For this reason and the reason that it also costs a lot of concentration to use, I almost never use it in in PVP.

Compared to teleportation, dance is like teleport with a 1 sec stun after you land. Similarly, jump is also like teleport but with a shorter 0.5 sec stun after you land. But even 0.5 sec is enough to take damage. If you want to test this just freeze the ranger and immediately put your pointer on the ranger and click to fire shots as the ranger jumps. See how many will hit the ranger when he lands.

Your ice nova reverse stun is even more OP than anything against melee. Imagine a DK went through all the trouble of dodging your shots and was finally able to stun you, then ice nova.....

Bird is a good stun+dmg+field control skill, but only if it hits and it has a cool down time of 30s. On the other hand frost wind is a much more reliable skill that does what you expect it to do. Ie if you want to freeze someone you get to freeze someone, not to mention the after-slow effect.

And it's not that I support one class being better than the other, that is unbalance. Read my post carefully, I like each classes having very well defined strengths and weaknesses against one another. Mages already have no trouble with DKs, and on top of that you want mages to also have no trouble with rangers. Do you see what the problem is? But the way DSO is progressing, favoring damage over defense, and with each level-cap raise lowering the resistance, the game is already favoring the SW play style.

In terms of who can beat who, DKs and SWs both can still beat archers. I see it everyday and I experience it everyday. But of course if you walk into the explosive shots expecting everything is going to be fine, and not knowing when to take advantage of the ranger's down time, the problem is you not the skill.

 

I play both a SM and DK, and SM's regen is more reliable than a DK's regen. An SM with a full 100 steam points can regenerate 30% of their hp by spamming steam conductor while getting a speed boost to run away at the same time. With full dragan set and one solstice star, that goes up to 40% or 45% hp regen. And steam regenerates fairly quickly, especially if you take the steam regenerate skills. Mech turrets can keep shooting while you run around.

 

As I mentioned before, it's nice to have 3 stuns, but which class has cooldown 60s (Dragon Hide) to debuff stunning effects or any other negative effects? And why DKs always have to have higher level of gems (at least 2 levels) to be equal to other classes?

 

To set the information part of this straight:
As usual, these OMG thats so unfair threads are fueled by misunderstanding and incorrect information of how something works, and of course only point out the parts of the game they want to and not the entire picture. And, what im realy tring to fight here, when you repeat that bad information and partial information you get others that read it as factual to get on the bandwagon. Your recollection of the damage you are taking is incorrect and to be honest just not possible to take 1-2k on the first hit and 4-7 on the explosion.

I guess im not sure which part is confusing for you. The explosive arrow is an arrow that explodes after it hits a target, hense the name. It is an ARROW that hits you and causes damage. And then guess what? It EXPLODES causing more damage. This is the exact same mechanic the SW Ice Sphere uses, it explodes at the end causing you to take damage two different times. And guess what, it is the same as the DK ground breaker option, it can explode at the end causing you to take damage twice. BTW all 3 of those skills: EA, Ground breaker and Ice sphere cause 200% damage on explosion. The SW and DK varients can utilize armor break to double that 200% and the RA version can use marking but not Armor break. The RA version takes 66 Concentration (53 w/2H) to cast, the SW version takes 50 Mana to cast and can regenerate 10 per person hit, and the DK version is free and has a 10 second cooldown.

The variation in damage that 200% explosion can cause is caused by individual players. A well geared SW's will have aroung 4.6k base damage and their attack is of course Ice damage so they can make huge hits with their shot especailly if you get caught with an armor break from any source. A well geared RA will have base damage around 2.7k and can then mark the target to also get huge hits. The DK cannot spam the skill because of the cooldown but can also gain huge hits if geared for damage/vice defense.

OK there are the facts, enjoy grabbing single lines to repeat to support your arguments further while ignoring the fact that everyone has a similar skill.

Now, instead of fingering one class, wouldn't it be smarter to say we all do too much damge to each other? No one would like the solution of reducing PVP damage overall, but it is the best option. Hey how about disabling the 50% bonus damage in the wisdom tree for the arena. Everyone has it selected unless they are pure flag runner, and if everyone is picking the same skill isnt that a sign it is not balanced in itself.

What a wonderful world it would be if people complained about the root of the problem, damage vs mitigation, but instead you try to get other classes nerfed based on single skills. Its that whole "trees through the forest" thing.

 

Yes, I know about the location of the jump, and vulnarability. Same with DK jump. I do know how the latency compensation games work. Anyway, some escape is better than nothing, won't you agree?

On the stuns, you again go into mage vs DK, remember, I talk strictly Mage vs Archer

The wind is pretty good mid range stun, I agree. But we both know all classes escape from the stuns in majority of cases. Also, you need to be mid range for it to be useful, but the archer going midrange only in case of full concentration.

I play both mage and DK. I wouldn't say mages are clear winners. I'm comfortable with both, and it is an interesting fight. Mage vs archer is not one, and will end very soon with a dead mage as a result. It would be nice to have the data BP has, but seens even some of the mods agree mage-archer is one way, I have no doubts.

And on 'nothing good'. The problem is that EA is unavoidable. It is a simple attack. And you will avoid it two times, but you will get the third hit. Similar to fireballs, you will surely get hit. The issue is, that you can still recover after 3-4 fireballs, but the EA is just a 1 shot. 1 shot in a defensive setup.

 

You criticize my posts as nonsense and yet look at what you wrote here lol. I know after 3-4 fireballs I will surely recover, recover with full HP and back inside my flag camp... Also, how many concentrations do you think rangers need to fire 3 explosive shots consecutively?? Ranger's concentration is not like your mana, its harder to come by and more precious to us.

 

I'm sorry it sounded mean to you. It is not. I'm not talking consecutive hits. Hit, run, hit, run, hit-dead. And you don't answer my questions, one would take that as something worse than 'criticism'. So who is clear the winner of r155 and a new skill?

As an archer, you can go into mid field, experiment, go off filed, try various things and you are safe you will not get 1 hit dead. As a mage, you are never safe as it can end very fast. All I'm saying, that skill has way too much damage. And it also has way too much damage when marked. I would exchange that damage to improvement of some other skills. It should have 250%-300% dmg unmarked total or so. It is two fireballs in concentration, let's make it two fireballs in damage.

Well, it looks like this is another covers Arion that is going into 'you are mean' kind of thing. Why can't you just hold a conversation.

 

Wow this sure came out of no where. Yes your posts were sometimes aggressive and so were mine but that's just how a debate is and I understand that (go on youtube and watch some real debates, this level of "heat" is nothing compared to some of them). I never considered this to be going the direction of "you are mean kind of thing" but I guess everyone sees things differently. Also I try, I really try to answer the questions directed at me but please understand that some questions need not to be answered because:
1. they are rhetorical questions, which most of your (and my) questions tend to be.
2. the answer is simple enough or if the question is stupid. For example: why does the explosive arrow hit twice?
3. if the question is poorly worded that I simply cannot understand the question.

And also, you can't just compare the mana and concentration with a 1:1 ratio and then expect the damage to scale in proportion. When comparing mana to concentration a fair comparison would be 12:8 respectively.

And since precision shot requires 33 concentration and deals 300% and explosive shot requires 66 and deals 600%, I don't see why the damage should be lowered. If the damage is to be lowered, the concentration requirement would also need to lowered as well.

 

There are some valid points, on concentration. But I think 3:2 ratio is not that big deal. I understand that design forces archers into hit&run play, I'm not upset with rangers doing what BP forces them to do. Running additional 4 seconds is not that hard. What mage gets? 1 additional fireball strike into nowhere as an archer is off the field? Again, it is a valid point to some extend.

Imo, precision shot also deals too much damage I understand however it is required for pve. That is fair that total damage per minute shouldn't be a big issue. But IMO that makes am issue in pvp, as a burst champion can force a game into a burst game, while the other will struggle to engage running archer. At least, do you understand my point?

Let's try to word my stupid question:

Assuming Mages and Archer were on par pre155, had equel chances to win the battle, do you think it is a mage who became stronger with r155, an archer, or there is no clear winner? In other words. Would you prefer an iceball over EA, assuming its concentration cost is adapted to an archer so is 33 points ( instead of 50 mana). I would clearly take EA over iceball.

I'm going to stop for today. Have a good night.

 

I thought you were just asking a rhetorical question and didn't think you actually wanted my opinion.

I disagree with the assumption to begin with. I would say that the mage had the upper hand pre-r155. The mage had much better lv40 fame skill. Rangers didn't really have a basic long range skill they can rely on when their concentration runs out (because even the basic hunting arrow required 5 concentration) while mage always had magic missile which together with the fame talent dealt 130% damage and was mana free. Even if they didn't like magic missile, their chain lightning was also mana free. Mage also had 2 of the best stuns, also mana free with shorter cool down than the best ranger stun - bird. Can you believe than ranger's net used to cost concentration to cast with no talent to rid of that? In terms of escape skills ranger's jump used to also cost concentration to use and had 12s cool down while teleportation only had 10 and refilled their mana full. Of course no ranger could afford to reduce the cool down of jump because adrenaline also reduced their concentration by 50% and they needed to take the talent for that. Even with the exciting lv45 expansion the rangers got thicket of thrones and a pet tree, 2 clearly PvE-oriented skills. On the other hand, mages got their mind control combo which was and still is very useful in pvp. Yeah, it used to be pretty bad for the rangers because all that rangers had was their 300% precision shot which only worked on marked targets.

Jumping back to answering your question: I think with r155 both mage and archer became stronger. I think the rangers became stronger mainly because the ranger skills became much more balanced with the rest of the classes (I have to applaud the developers here). Mages also got stronger, but it's less apparent in the rework of their skills because the mages already had a pretty strong skill set before r155. I think the real boost to the mage is the wisdom tree 50% weapon damage talent. Before rangers had 25% weapon damage talent and DKs had 40% 2h weapon damage talent while SWs had none. Now with this 50% boost they either have the same or higher base damage than the rangers (before the rangers had higher base damage than SWs).

So, if the mages were already doing pretty good in PVP without the % weapon damage talent before r155, now with 50%, they are doing even better. The developers even equalized the armor and HP bonuses on mage and archer armors. So clearly, the mages had a greater boost in terms of their stats (like dmg, armor, hp) than the ranger did with r155. But in my opinion, this is currently balanced by the fact that rangers now have explosive shot. So overall, there is no clear winner with r155.

 

You and BigPapa are two of the few around here who actually think. Very good points, very objectively and intelligently presented. The others who support ranger being nerfed around here, only come up with partial and incomplete information and arguments. Very well done, you have shown the ignorants the entire picture with valid arguments! Only a fool could read your post and still think that rangers are incredibly op compared to other classes.

 

I personally play with a Ranger, and my pvp is mostly 3v3; i've tried a lot of different settings and it's obvious that EA damages are OP against mages: with 1200 maximum dmgs and 110% critical dmgs (highly defensive stats), is not rare to see EA dealing 3k-3.5k with critical hit, and i mean just one of the two effects, going to be something like 5k of damages (or more with double critical hit); it's too much from nothing.

However, when it comes to ranger vs mage in open field i cant see all the superiority (gameplay speaking).
A careful Mage will never be stunned by net, and with a good speed movement also the bird will hit the ground.
On the other hand the hunter is pretty harmless against mage stuns, and thats the plot twist: the new Ice bomb deals as much as EA, and without the old skill from pvp tree (4 sec immunity after a stun) i see mages just jumping on rangers, at the right moment, with multiple stuns, and shoot a couple of ice bomb... Basically impossible to avoid, of course it requires some skills, but is not impossible to achieve, and played in the right moment is coming with low risks.

If u dont like to get too close u can still play from distance, and have fair chances: fireball is easy to shoot succesfully (and the bugged burning effect survive often the antistun), magic missle deals the damages of an unmarked ranger red arrow for free, not that bad... Meanwhile the hunter to deal massive damages has to use two hits (greenA and EA) and at that distance, with the arrows not even "speedy" (cause we lost the skill from the fame tree) is not impossible to avoid them, or at least taking the green and step back, nonconsidering the fact that shooting twice makes hunter slower in reaction than the mage...

In conclusion: EA is OP only in dmgs, and its frustrating that an hunter in defensive gear can almost kill a mage with oneshot without mark if it get a double critical on it. I totally agree, in my opinion the OP is coming from the two Experience talents (+33%dmgs), cause even without them on a marked mage it will deal a lot: i'd like to see there something smarter than dmgs (for example a reduction of conc required that with less dmgs doesnt seem that unbalanced, or whatever, thats not my job...). It's OP against mages, but in ranger vs war situation, for example, with his conc cost and the high chance of failing, it never puts enough pressure to overcome the recharging of life (speaking endgame chars: even if i deal 5k dmgs to a war, and its hard considering the 80% block rate, than i have nothing more to shoot, and he can easily go for a walk and come back later).

Soooo: who cares about mage and ranger, when we have dwarfs (what kind of gameplay is put down turrets and just run?) and warriors (with or without the 6k draken weapon, we are back to the old days of immortal chars walking the field to debuff, killing people with 1000 max dmgs and 16k Life Point) trashing the pvp badly: for the first two classes there is maybe a problem in balancing; for the other two almost everything needs to be rethought.

 

Rangers EA is simply crazy in damage which i must say, look at mages ice sphere they got to close in a little to shoot them in order to cause big damage
Rangers wants to dominate everything, they cried every moment if their damage can't attain what they wanted them to be
The only their reason is their mages is too weak or poor gears to go to the arena
For dks, the moderators already stated that they are not OP with 6k drakens weapon and they are very low damage.
And its so obvious its either those moderators play as a dk OR they doesn't know what is really happening in the arena
Dks healing is so much now, simply OP
Lastly i personally find no point buying anders bcoz the reason is simple, even a full royal gemmed up mage cant even take down a ranger or a dk easily with just flawless gems

 

Rangers are OP
Mages are OP
Dragonknights are OP
Steams are OP

I guess the new class is OP as well.
Every warrior is so freaking OP, no evil prevails anymore around Dracania.
On behalf of the weak andermagic creatures I request the game designers to rework the Monsters and give them insane skills to fight all these OP warriors of Dracania.

 

Yeah, rangers are some of the best orators here, congrats. Would be sad if being better in that will help to promote imbalance though.

You see, I'm of the opposite opinion on pre 155 mage vs ranger. Mage had less armor, less HP, slower weapon. Cyanite shiled, yes, would help to survive, sometime, another burst. Magic missile was dealing almost no damage to a shielded high armor archer, he could have easily accept some of that damage in attack preparation. Archer was always doing his best job - hit and run. As a fact, there few archers on the server I play were never ever beaten by mages, never. Such mages do not exist.

Now on the boost. 50% more dmg is not just about a mage. Archer got that. And it's not free, it costs 10% speed and 10 points. And archer still has his 5% faster by default weapon. Its a lot, taking into account that will play a role when adding all the gems and speed items. 10% of speed and 10 points is a lot too. That is 15 or so points loss converted. That is 45%hp or 30% more damage. You are going into offensive setup talk in here. And archer doesn't need to use that, he has skills to deal massive damage even with much lower base damage. Also, the speed matters less in an hit&run mode, when archer is attacking, mage is running as any hit could be deadly. So archer feels pretty good with 1.77 vs 2.01, not a big deal. Mage needs the speed to be able to fire all those multiple fireballs while an archer is still not that far into an off the field.

But the most important, what was PS unmarked dmg before? What is now EA unmarked? While you might say mages got some extra hp and armor, and we talk 10% or so, it is a joke comparing to hundreds % of extra archer damage. Hundreds % of extra damage from nothing. Not that you had to farm 100M glyphs. Just do nothing, get you beloved old dragan setup and deal twice as much and more.

And the worst thing again remains the same. Archer is able to deal massive damage in a highly defensive setup. Go dragan like they always do, get 80% of block, another 30% of concentration, tons of armor, and still do those crazy 400% unmarked shots while a fireball from the very similar defensive mage would be nothing. Archer has got a mark to improve his damage in-play, mage has to improve his damage by stats sacrificing defence.

Do you really think there is a balance? Are you personally being killed by lot of mages? Aren't you now better against mages you know? I mean, everyone could say whatever he wants, but as a mage, I have to fight real hard against archers were an easy walk for me, against those with no glyphs, no gems, I know that for sure. And there is just no way I can do anything to those archers I struggled before.

I have done a lot of tests with my archer friends, all of them say it is easier doing archer against mage now. I understand you are protecting what you have got. That's fair. Well, that is clear. But do you really enjoy 1-hitting all those mages in an easy walk using dragan set? If you do, well, good luck. Arena will become mageless. There would be not a lot of competition, and the only mages out there would be 2handed noobs who think they are pro since they got 4-5k 2h damage thanks to an absurd damages right now in they game, still an easy kill for a real pro archer. That's an enjoyment, but is it?

 

So reading through all this debate one thing is clear...

If I want to be OP, I can simply create a mage or ranger. (Everyone makes their case for why either are OP)
If I want to be invincible and never, ever die, I can simply create a DK and get a 6 draken sword or simply create a SM and get some fast boots.

You guys make it sound like it doesn't seem to matter how much you spend (with 6k sword exception of course, because that is all a DK will ever need).
How much you farm.
What gear you are lucky enough to find.
Fame level.
How long you've played or your style of play.

It seems to go more like this a bit also ... if you've lost to a ranger, all of them are OP. If you've lost to a mage, all of them are OP. If you've lost to a DK, all of them are invincible. If you've lost to a SM, all of them are too fast and unbeatable.

No wonder DSO has no idea how to balance pvp ......

 

It is not that rangers are better orators. It just that, in a debate it is easier to defend the truth than it is to defend BS, like if you were to argue that the earth is flat and I were to say that it is round.

You speak as if archers had god-like stats...The truth is, no archer can have high damage, attack speed, critical value, critical damage, armor, block, HP, and resistance at the same time. This is the same for everyone else, just go look at the "showcase your ranger/SW/DK" threads. If an archer had insanely high armor, it means he had to sacrifice 1 or few of his others stats, be it HP, resistance, or any of the offensive stats. Maybe your server has top archers that beat mages, I don't know, but I know for a fact that my server has top mages that beat archers. And I do know that class balance shouldn't be based on a few selected top characters.

Yes it is not free. Archers can feel the 10% slow too. Yes archer short.bow is 5% faster than the mage 1h wand, but go see it for yourself that the 1h wand has higher base damage than the shortbows. And it is not like that 5% make archer into speed demons....you should know archers have always preferred attack speed builds in pvp because it is that much important for them to be able to mark the opponent and have a chance to hit them with another shot before the mark runs out. If you are still worried about the 5% it is perfectly fine that they equalize the speed on our 1h weapons as long as they also equalize the damage. And I also don't know why you are using the wisdom tree as your argument...the 10% attack speed reduction archer has it too. Everyone has it. And I think attack speed is just as important (if not more) to archers than to mages.
And in terms of the mages receiving higher boost in damage let me make it easier for you to understand what I meant:
(Other classes aside since you only care about mage vs archer)

WD = Weapon damage
AS = Attack speed

Archer
Before: 25% WD
After: 50% WD, -10% AS
Net Gain/Loss: +25% WD, -10% AS

Mage
Before: 0%
After: 50% WD, -10% AS
Net Gain/Loss: +50% WD, -10% AS

Precision shot has to hit a marked target in order to be good, that is precisely why mages had the upper hand in hit-and-run battles. And yes, now even unmarked, explosive arrow can deal decent damage, although the damage is sub-optimal considering the amount of concentration spent. But it is exactly why archers can fight in equal footing against mages now: archer shoots arrows with more damage but less frequently; mages shoots balls with less damage but more frequently.

That is a very interesting way to look at it, but it is an unfair comparison. You should compare skills with skills and stats with stats, not skills with stats...All but the explosive arrow (and bird but it's more of a stun) of archer's skills do laughable damage without the mark. Again and again I say that archer's skills do higher damage because that's what archers are good at and I already pointed out the weaknesses of the archers.

I do PVP too and you have to be realistic here, a defensive archer with 80% is not going to 1-shot another mage with the same defensive set up. Therefore, during the battle, even if the mage got hit once, he/she has a plenty of opportunities to use his/her superior crowd control and other skills to equalize the battle. Archer fighting a mage with an offensive set is another story.

Lol, this sounds more like a personal problem.

Yes, I actually do think there is balance now. And because archers were disadvantageous in PVP before, now that it is balanced I am doing better now against mages yes. But it is not like I am invincible, I still get killed my mages.

 

Just read what BigPapa said.

1. What server you play on?
2. Names please.
3. Based on what data are those claims?
Because ...you know ... i have a new midget character and he went to the arena ... once ... he won and he is unlikely to join another fight.
So yes ... officially I have 100% score (all wins) and I am unbeaten in the arena by any class.

Leave your ranger friends aside ... the best way to learn the ranger's class strong side and the weaknesses is to create a ranger character and play with it. That way you can have all the answers to your questions.
There is no such thing as a "unbeatable character" or "unbeatable class" ... everyone can be killed by anyone. Not even 10M euros can grant you immortality.

(the next part is not a reply to anyone ... just my rant)

The point is ... the arena is simply broken since the R155 ... and I don't see it repaired in the near future. Quite contrary ... with the gossips and rumors I hear ... here and there ... I can only state that the arena will be even more broken.
Therefore I don't set a foot inside the arena since the R155.
The arena before R155 was pretty well balanced ... the only thing needed was a minor polishing ... like Honor Points distribution for an example. And what have they done? They ruined it all.
Our PVP skills were taken away ... our knowledge skills were taken away ... all was taken from us and given to any noob.
Something that players were working on ... and earned in the past years ... was given for free to all.
Why? Because some 5 year old punk was whining on FB. Can you believe it? FB.
Since when FB is the place to collect the feedback from? I read our CMs ... they say ... there are more players using FB than the forums.
REALLY?????
You know why???
Because Trakilaki has more than 150 FB accounts ... created in the past 7-8 years ... and he can spam the hell out of any FB post. Trakilaki on FB can be ... male, female, 69 year old, 5 year old, he can be "experienced" long term player ... even never tried the game ... so his feedback is counting only because he is using FB and not this forum ... for which BP is paying license and maintenance. But NO ... FB is the feedback collecting place. You see ... Whenever Trakilaki is logging in to some of his FB accounts and he is giving "irrefutable feedback" to any matter with this game. (of course I never did that I am using my name instead of any random just to make a point)

SHAME ON YOU!!!

No wonder the game is broken beyond repair.

 

I agree with that we all do too much damage to each other (except DKs obviously), but I think that Trakilaki said it best.

 

You miss the point, again. Archer does not need to go into High Damage build to reach high damage numbers thanks to skillset. Archers can hit hard in a highly defensive setup, mages cant.

The gain that comes with a price cannot be considered a net gain. It is inaccurate to call it Mage's boost, as it is not only mages who got that. In order to use it, you need to pay. You can call it Archer's loss though. Lets say archers got a net loss of 25% WD here. What does that mean in terms of total damage? ~10% something, more or less?

No need to go into such details, I'm very good at math. And yes, I'm still worried about 5% speed. I would rather have speed. how bigger is mage's base weapon damage?

If some other guy got here and liked your post, it does not make what you say a truth.

Mages never had an upper hand pre155 despite you claiming this. I claim that shooting less frequently and running off the field in between those bursts is much easier than trying to use multiple shots with less damage.

"All but the explosive arrow of archer's skills do laughable damage without the mark." - Really??
On the weaknesses, again, I also already said you can easily overcome all those weaknesses by running, if needed.

On the defensive setups. If both go into a play in defensive mode, it is a mage who will deal the laughable damage with any of the skill. The game will just last longer. There would be no 1 hit dead. Perhaps, it will take an archer two-three hits to kill mage. Mage hit # requirement will be in 2 figures.

'Superior crowd control' - WTH is that? Mind control? once in a while you can have another teleport/frost wind? are you serious giving it as an argument?

And finally on the balance, if you think there is any balance on arena right now, guess we see the world differently.

'I am doing better now against mages yes'. Thanks for this. Now you confirmed archers are the winners of the release. I appreciate that.

I always read what BogPapa is saying. I'm with him on the broken arena and damage mitigation.
1. Grimmag
2. Artist - left by now though.
3. Lots of personal experience, videos, conversation with friends, some of the best mages on the server.

I heard 'play ranger yourself'. Not in my case. It is silly even to offer such thing. I play two classes already, and in order to create a top/decent char you pretty much have to dedicate all your time to him. That is my mage. I can do some archer, but playing low-noob arena will answer no questions.

Perhaps, would be nice if BP has offered, once a year, one day of a free temporary transmutation into another class, to check it out. Lets say on the Halloween.

and I like this part. Total agreement here.

Haruki is on vacation, so we have a week to bastardize the thread. Plus, some of the questions addressed to Haruki includes 'why class A has that' and some people stand up to protect themselves and spread their opinion so the question, reasonable or not, is lost in this garbage.