Development Team Letter - CLASS BALANCING

Here is my counter argument. I argued that a 1H/Quiver build has no significant advantage over a 2H build (even without considering EA spam). Beyond having to compensate for crit overkill coupled with the easier access to crit damage, you need to consider the something that used to be much more important than it is today; damage per hit.

What would you say is the single biggest threat to a DPS RA (2H or 1H/Quiver)? The answer is likely "a 1H DK," since that is what 80% of the posts in this thread are about, apparently. Now, which DPS build is more likely to kill a 1H DK? I'd argue the 2H RA (again, not even considering EA spam).

Consider two example builds and two hits (EA, because it is the strongest), a non crit and a crit, from each. We'll start by ignore the DK's defensive stats because we are comparing the proportional damage per average hit between two RA builds. As Trakilaki pointed out, reaching +200% or more crit damage from items without the quiver is easy, so I'll give the 2H build 400% crit damage. To account for the fact that it is easier to get crit damage in a 1H/Quiver build, I'll give that build +300% crit damage for a total of 500%.

Lets suppose the 2H build has 24k-30k damage (not unreasonable, I think), 80% crit, and 400% crit damage. A non crit from this build would do, on average, 27000*5=135k, and a crit would do 135000*4=540000. For our imaginary 1H RA, lets estimate the damage at 17k-20k (smaller damage gap because of the weapon choice), 80% crit rate, and 500% crit damage. A non crit would do 18500*5=92500 and a crit would do 462500. If you average this out, across five hits, the total damage would be 2.295 million to 1.942 million. That higher damage per hit for the 2H can make a significant difference because it helps overcome a 1H DK's healing better. Working in reverse, you would need a 1H build with an average damage of ~21850 damage (for example, 20k-23.7k) to equal a 2H build's DPH. To be honest, I haven't run the numbers for a 1H RA from start to finish, but this seems like a little bit of a stretch, but pleas correct me if I'm wrong.

So, going back to Damage Per Hit... That is what really kills things. Sure, attack speed lets you get off more hits in a given space of time, but the DPH is what finishes the fight. If a DK heals every time you hit them (with Lifekeeper), you want to make sure the damage of that hit is way larger than the heal amount. That is why Ice Missile spam is completely ineffective against Lifekeeper DKs. You also need to overcome their regen skill, and that is a flat percentage/second. Again, the more damage you do in a single hit, the better you are able to overcome that.

So, my original premise was:

As I just showed above, in PvP, the ability to reach 5x crit damage easier isn't enough to compensate for the significantly higher damage you attain with a 2H since 80% crit rate in PvP is so easy to reach these days. Unless my estimations of the kind of damage that a 1H Longbow build can reach is way off (and straying dangerously close to 2H levels), I don't see anything to change my mind.

Also, you can't argue effectively from a position based on attack speed differences, because I'd argue that higher attack speed, past a practical point, doesn't make much difference in PvP. The only skills you can easily spam (and where speed would make a difference) with a Longbow are the low damage skills that will do more harm than good against a 1H DK, thereby defeating the point of high Damage Per Hit. And if you argue about a longbow's 20% concentration reduction, then I'll finally reintroduce EA spam from the Herald set. At the very least, these two cancel each other out, if not giving the 2H RA an edge.

I am still convinced that a 1H/Quiver is very viable in PvE for the overflow crit, but in PvP, I don't see any real advantage in the current meta.

 

Man no offense but if u wanna be the best at clearing mobs and want your class to be the best for that then go ahead and claim that from BP.I dont mind.I myself want the same equality when it comes to boss runs.We have different opinions here obviously, for me and many others bosses are more important than common npcs because they give you the most glyphs, you need uniques from them, they give you cores and so on.Once you get highest tier of gems, runes, tier 6 uniques, all 4x gold lines, farming common NPCs is not really that pleasant anymore.From that moment on, the only thing that you find entertaining in DSO are bosses (especially if PvP is dead for you for years), and now bosses were taken away from you in a way by BP.

I wonder, if BP decided to nerf that wild swing skill and take away the hp reg , would warriors appreciate the fact that they will have to run around for 2 minutes and will have to pot everytime they get hit in every boss fight like other classes have to? No they wont and they will rage on forums until BP changes it back.Why should i like to run for 2 minutes if you dont ?

Have you seen that Bloodybones mage from heredur i think vs mortis on inf2 when inf2 was max? Like 8 minute per kill and over 1.2k pink used + tons of pots.Thats ridiculous.A warrior does that now with green in 2-3 min.The reason why i picked this boss is because its the only one that drops soul cores and we all need it.Whats with this ? I make a warrior full royal/full lvl 60, maxed runes, all 4x gold lines and i can do everything with green and if i make a mage full royal/full lvl 60, maxed runes, all 4x gold lines i wont be able to do crap on highest infernals without paying for essences and pots ?This is not right. I agree that each class should have minuses and pluses but a class should not have all them pluses and one all them minuses.

 

Honestly i think this statment is describing PW at the moment INF3 should be a CHALLENGE i mean for mage it already is but the other classes are not actually challenged so this would lead to 2 possible routes, either change(not buff) or change other classes like and im being reallycoservative to say the word NERF since we saw the last buff done ( to the ranger) with 0 effect so ...... i wont say nerf anything since it would be useless rather Rework its a good thing...I hate being called a spammer while playing a mage but by this logic tanks is a spammer too ( spaming the lv1 atack for the cd) , ranger with q7 is also a spammer,, the dwarfs,,,,,, well they are on a whole next level of spam its like mashing your head into the keyboard and gg XD....

On a serious note i claim that on lv 45. 50 ppl said archer was the most useless class.. that wasnt true i was carried by rangers ...so... yeah it was all dependent on skills and build back then now its not the same, everything revolves around dumb stupid buff and amplifiers so might aswell call a math teacher to play instead of me..... so aka mage underperforming is not a thing which happens rarely.. ive played a lot with groups on inf1 and so on where im being called a noob since my LS doesnt deal the max on the first hit so idk tanks on 1h are pretentious like they expcet dwarf dmg with max crit and its getting on my nerves lately. A friend of mine litterary say i just spam 1 button while being drunk and its ez..... how is that fair , you dont use ess and its basically free...Something needs to be changed because lets say im out of ess to farm inf 1 what do i do well if im tank i put the shield and ez spam 1 spell and collect drop... the only problem is the boss but generally you dont deal the dmg either ways so you just focus on the outplaying the boss....I know a lot of ppl will jump on me and say . uhh you know without a tank this game is over so i say back CAHANGE because if i go to Jesters to get some ess with gold he will just craft and aka he will be stronger than me (since he can still farm on the same difficulty without penalties...). I dont know no matter the angle i look at i see no minuses.....the only change which i see reasonable is to split him into two classes 1 for 2h and 1 for 1h otherwise its gg bound to be op... ....GJ with the ideas from lv 50 dso

This post was more like to make it all clear.And a good change for mage will be to rework destruction because now its useless since we are forbiden to use q1( most of the time unless you are going for fun build rather than usefull)
Thanks for bearing with me in this rant kinda post XD

 

Some folks obviously have other priorities. I thought only botters care about clearing maps)

Tank is the best class in clearing everything including clearing maps) he can run through easily when required skipping all junk mobs focusing on the champs. No potions needed. But this is irrelevant. Bosses is the only thing that matters in pve. Bosses mean cores, materi frags (who would farm materi in any other way than quick q1 run? That's 20k an hour easily).

As I develop my DK a realize how hard was doing that with a mage and how easy it is now.

 

actually im farming on q3 with the book using glasses im gaining like 12k an hour to 15k when solo and 20k when with smb else to look with me so yeah boses are not so needed for materi but it is a good way since you get cores and items too, just wanted to say other way

 

Gnob's bow is limited ... still better then the other longbows though.
That is not a definition of a good bow if you can't make use of the buff ... not everyone is Ballet dancing.

 

The word "fun" is only for you.. I mean its kinda too good to not be used in pvp.... Imagine if tanks hadd such an item allowing fearless to deal even more dmg....so you get to be almost invulnerable while oneshoting people..seems sooooooooo fun for other ppl right(quality content).Its like adding an item which allows mages to deal aoe dmg on teleport its was gonna be insta removed.
If you dont believe me there was an archer who made a pvp with this bow he went on 5v5 and he just spam 1 spell.. much outplay much wow...i mean even more spam for arena, its not like its wasnt spam to win eitherways.To be hones dash with dmg is too strong... and my question is why emilia s things for dwarfs and mages suc k while tanks and rangers can kinda be used...

 

In low pvp/elo matches this strategy might work. In high elo pvp matches, most people will laugh about the slow animation of blade dance and will simply step out of reach and deal dmg onto your hitbox (the place where your char will stand once the damn long animation is over). I would agree if blade dance was nearly as fast as dash, but with the current animation it can be outplayed easily. Your only way make it work well is to go for quick short dances and/or combine it with stuns. People who complain ranger is invulnerable during blade dance just dont understand the char hitbox concept in this game.
But regarding the emilia mage/dwarf issue i agree with you.

 

My goal is Leaderboard points/second



Which includes everything (walking speed, defensive stats, offensive ones, resource management ones, gaming skills, map clearing strategy, mod selection).

Boss fights in a game where you have tank & spank routing without any interesting mechanic, no rage, poor rewards cannot interess me as it couldn't interess me this kind of PvP.
I cannot see room for improvements in any of those sections as the game framework won't let have any sort a "enhanced" boss fights mechanics (the best we've seen so far are Dragan's lasers which put some sort of dps race/rage in the fight and destructor bombs) I could expect in real MMORPG nor eSports PvP.
I'm used to play hardcore games and that's not something I could expect here (because noone here ever asked for harcore mode other than me), but, they gave me an infinite challenge that will keep refreshing any time there's a better gear/new setup I can test and a new/higher mod/map.
It is mostly a personal challenge and that's why I don't care how strong are other classes compared to mine since I cannot be hurted by their strenght/weakness in anyway (the worst it could happen is they slow me down when I group but that just means that when I'm pushing for a new group record I'll select accordly my team mates and that happens just once in a while).
I never asked for a nerf of other classes (fixes are another thing) nor I will ask a buff for mine (which incidentally isn't DK) and I don't like when someone asks for nerfs (buffs are always welcome as they cannot hurt me in anyway other than pumping up my group scores).

Oddly we have a section for the showoff of crafted gear, lucky drops but noone ever made a topic about LB scores which, I'm pretty sure, is what devs are looking when they need structurated datas for the game balancement.

Anyone here is free to give their personal suggestion on what is needed and what they would like to see in the game, I'm probably less demanding than most of the ppl here.

Over and out.

 

I tried. It didn't catch on like the crafting thread or stats threads.

 

What should this prove? The fact that only 2-3 ppl posted their scores and the mods even archivied the topic (that I never saw because at that time I didn't even play this game) doesn't seem odd in a game heavly PvE oriented?

Anyway do me a great pleasure, ignore my posts as I will carefully ignore yours and the ones from your trusted friends this will make this forum a bit healtier.

 

What the hell is your problem? If you're going to blow up at me, at least do it when I make a make a post pointing out something stupid you said or did. All I did here was take something you said and pointed out that I'd tried to do something along those lines ages ago and it didn't work. If you think it is such a good idea, try making a new one. It has been over a year. Maybe the community would pick it up this time.

And whatever you do, take a chill pill because that reaction there is not normal.

 

Oh, I'm sure they're all impressed by your achievement:

Your score is so high that the game had to censor it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but what is the reason behind this. Why only Steam Mechanicus is able to jump here and other classes not ?
(It's the entrance of the PW Herold in the picture )

 

Because only midgets are having that talent for increased jumping distance.

Callibration

Increases the Rocket Pack range by 30%.

 

haha, I knew someone would say that. It's pretty obvious no ? . But what's the idea of let some roughly cut 20% of the map ? It's nice advantage for Steamer.

 

I fixed the post

 

Because only dwarfs have rocket pack and they can fly. They have in they talent +30% increase range.

 

As i mentioned before , the problem is in SW skills not in Dk strength because avery DK can die very fast from 2-3 RA shots.Also improper use of skills make DK stronger instead of killing him.
So instead of claiming that DK need nerf you should search a skill modification like lowering frames on destruction skill and lowering his cost at 50 points so that can be more viable against Dk in pvp. In my opinion if they can make destruction = aith that balls spamed from RA can be a big pvp changer for SW.
maybe is not the best solution but SW need a precise (not for imobile targets like meteor) skill for mobile targets that can be spammed fast and with big damage per hit.
The problem with distruction now is that has small laser point of action and can be easy avoided by enemy , also has big cost i don't know if it has cooldown too.

 

How much we have to wait 'till they fix q6 and give a quest to mortis and put a vendor in q6 and a q6 set?I'm sick of doing mortis inf 2 and not dropping the ring, is it too difficult to fix q6?You were able to fix q5, it took a few months, isn't about tim to do the same for q6?