Development Team Letter - CLASS BALANCING

This video is the proof that its not a good idea to make Charge main dmg skill 18 mins for q9 inf 2 on blue and boss on red ? 3 mins to kill inf2 boss on red ? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ty

 

Don't say it too loud DJ you know that nerfing ..ehm..."balancing" is something that has always been somewhat easy to implement in this game either that or beefing up the monsters - same difference. Here - 18 minutes is a very nice time Very nice indeed (I hope you are reading it Dev's? )

 

This was back when inf2 was the new highest difficulty...

 

Mehhh...
Q7 if you do this then you have 3 seconds of bliss
I want permanent good unconditional damage......
My build is coming along will make a video once I have all components and you can see the effect of it.

 

Congrats, you've just demonstrated that you don't know enough about end game DKs that you can't contribute in any meaningful way to the debate. While you are right that Charge is an excellent source of damage, you are total wrong about how, when, and why. If I wanted to make a joke here, I'd say that your evidence is moot.

Charge is only a source of damage against mobs, against a stunable mini boss, or when you have seriously low attack speed. Here is why.

Charge is an excellent skill for damage against large mobs. It's damage is just slightly below Smash, but has a better AoE if the mobs are well aligned and has a stun attached. Stun + Good AoE + Respectable Damage makes it good against large groups of stunable enemies.

It is usable against stunable mini bosses because it allows you to chain stun them making what could potentially be a difficult single target, a trivial joke.

It is also a good Single target skill for newer 2H DKs who don't have a lot of attack speed because the attack is speed independent. It doesn't matter what your attack speed is, charge has the same animation time. That means, if your speed is too low, that you can land more hits with Charge in a given time than you could land with Smash. However, if your attack speed is high, you will be able to land many more higher damage Smashes in the same length of time.

Now, lets look at why the example you gave from the video is a poor example of when and how to use that skill.
First. He has high attack speed. Watch the rest of the video and you can see that he has plenty of attack speed and he could have done more damage using Smash while his Banner of War was up.
Second. He was fighting an unstunable boss. Stunning is one of the primary reasons to use Charge over Smash, but against a map boss, this consideration is irrelevant.
Third. He's using the Bear set. With the bear set, Smash and MWS dow 25% more damage against bleeding foes. The boss was already bleeding to be able to use the chain Charge, so why wasn't the player using Smash so that it would be doing even more damage... way more than Charge.

So, in conclusion, yes, Charge is an excellent skill for damage, but you need to brush up on your DK game theory before you try to argue on the DK class' behalf.

 

Doesn't change the fact that it's inefficient to use it as a main dmg skill, since there are WAY better options. I'll take myself as an example. I like playing with my gnob bow and kill bosses on inf3 with blade dance as main dmg dealer. But just because it works it doesnt mean its a good and efficient strategy. Compared to q7+ea it's nothing.

 

If you have time, would you be so kind and record a video of your toon equipped with green essence (switch to red to fight the boss ) going though any Infernal III PW map -Q1 is the fastest I think - and show all new rangers contemplating on which build to go for a difference between damage dealt and time of the run between Q7+EA and Dancing Blade please? They will enjoy it.

 

Dear Jesse, welcome to new role. I wish you luck.

I wanted to provide early feedback on what you guys call class balancing, its PvE aspect, specifically on Group Talents. Before I do that though, lets discuss current reality

The most important aspect is a boss fight, not going through the maps trashing poor mobs. when people consider the team composition, they never look into what can a char offer killing the mobs. every class can do it quite well. so here is your Assumption 1. Boss fight is the crucial aspect of PvE. I would go further making a bold claim - it is the only important aspect of PVE imbalance.

Balance assumes characters are:
1. Equally capable of running through the maps solo.
2. Equally capable of killing the bosses given the same development level and resources.
3. Equally desirable in groups because they have something to offer.

Current reality:
1. Dragonknights are welcome as tanks to tank bosses. 2H dragonknights can kill every boss solo easily, and there are many videos proving this point. they also offer a lot of damage as a team players.
2. Dwarfs offer the most sustainable damage of all classes and tesla on top of that. yet, dwarfs can also be tanky, killing the boss faster than ranger/mage while dodging at the same time.
3. Ranger is third in the damage dealer list. has nothing to offer besides damage output.
4. Mage sucks in every aspect.

What you are bringing
1. Bird of Prey - could be quite useful in a boss fight, given the proper composition and training. a couple of dozens of runs to get used to each other's timing. (I assume the team resource bar is visible)
2. Bloody Wild Swing - could be useful too. there is a tank in a group in most cases, and he can sure throw a few BWS here and there to help others. But more importantly, that creates another group composition - multiple 2h tanks. Now they dont even need anyone - they will heal each other, with 1 tank at a time taking over the boss with Dragon Hide. another scenario - 1h tank with a bunch of 2h. 1h holds the boss, 2h heal him as required.
3. Rocket Pack - reducing cooldown. what can be better. 1h tank will not only enjoy tesla now, but also ability to use Dragon Knight frequently.
4. Frost nova - total crap with ZERO use.

To sum it up, you are further boosting classes who are already on top of everything in the boss fight, while giving absolutely nothing to Mage.

Ideal teams composition would be 1h tank, 2h tank, 2 dwarfs. perhaps 1 more ranger.

What are you balancing, guys? Please. Perhaps you have another perception of reality? Could you please share who you think is the underdog of PvE right now, because quite frankly, I do not follow.

Thanks for the effort.

UPD. I guess you use agile scrum for development. And guess you consider this balancing a large user story, an epic, a theme, or whatever you wanna call it. Another guess, you follow the patter of the user stories writing, that includes 'acceptance criteria' or 'condition of satisfaction', or whatever you wanna call it. If not, read some Mike Cohn.

When you consider the Balancing Story/Theme complete, please redefine your acceptance criteria.
1. Each class should be equally desirable in a group.
2. At least 1 member of each class should be considered as a must by the team.
3. Additionally, every class should be equally welcome as 5th member of the group. In other words, adding 2nd dwarf or 2nd tank should not be better than adding second ranger or mage.

Now, if you follow me - think about what you have designed, and if it meets any of the conditions. I would call it an opposite of success. And it worsens ridiculous imbalance we have in the game already.

***

(Examples of something more reasonable) Why wouldnt you follow what classes are already good at? Tank is good in healing, not a question. Mages are experts of mana and they usually play with the most resource of all classes. Why not give them the 'birdofprey' (you can also llay with another beautiful concept here - more mana the mage has, better the output of the skill for everyone)? Rangers should get a cooldown. Dwarfs could have their Tesla as passive skill with another skill being added as a replacement, or something else. Dwarfs might have the less dmg dealt to all party members who are in the circl3 of turrets, whatever.

Again, mage bonus is a complete joke. Don't even bring it to test server and waste a second implementing it. Whoever suggested it, does not understand the game issues.

Jesse, you are QA guy yourself, and I suspect a good one given you took over this job. Think what is Quality? Is it just about bugs, text alignment and other crap? Guess not. Its about performance, its about security, its about integrity etc. Some people quality is a king, or at least second to context. In case of this game, quality is also about balance. I'm sure you have plenty of test cases you design to test things and run regressions. do you guys have any dedicated performance test cases? security test cases? guess so. how about you introduce Balance test cases, so you can evaluate during design/new functionality/rework/regression if the balance is being affected or not in some clear manner? Define in whatever way or form what is Balanced first, create tests to validate it in any given point of time, question it when making any drastic change, update the tests to include scenarios posted as a feedback and so on. Use 'Acceptance Test Driven Development'. Now that would be Quality Assurance Engineer, not just some 'junior tester'.

Roll back, relax, and go back to the roots of the imbalance, please.

And again, remember, when people cry on the forum saying 'I suck in PVE', they mean Bosses in 99% of cases.

Thank you.

 

That was exactly what I said during that stream which let's be honest was bad.
As a mage player I was waiting for them to make my class finally better (or sorry ACTUALLY playable) in PvE at the lvl of other classes. And then they introduced those talents.
Are we going back to the Dwarf + Tank meta only again?
While Archer talent isn't that much useless, if those talent's stack I would choose x100 time more the dwarf one anyway. Perma Flag + Aura for 2h War which can became your Tank on bosses now?
WHO the hell need's something like Frost Nova what was they thinking while creating that?
I'm starting to lose my every hope about 'Mage becoming playable in PvE'. They just hate that class and for me they can delete it aswell.
Also I was hoping in Balance in terms of skills too or those Trees to became unique for every class not the same. So nothing changes for me.

 

Insane. I guess though if one has donators and such they are able to acheive such levels.

 

Don't forget chain lightening. lol

 

Yep that passive skill for mages suck so bad they should add some speed or critical damage boost as it should.be the best dmg dealer from this game and also i hope they will remodel that distruction latency to shorten that delay.

As for the hole stream i did not like that.Not so much info and nothing about guild wars or pvp balance or a sistem anticheating also just some few thinghs about bags and that is it.

Mister CM with all respect but when you prepaire for a stream sesion you should search on forums what people want and give some answers about that not to give answers to some kids that have came on live sesion for a code and ask the same question when sargon came.
Also you should make tematic streams just for ballance or pvp or new content more often like every month or so.

 

Amen to that. I think if chain lightening just had more damage it general in could be incredibly useful, especially in mobs. I used it the other day in Suvius, on Fatal as a joke, and my guildies got a kick out of it. That is how sad it is to use anymore. Why have it, if we can't use it anymore? As for destruction, it is one of the biggest damage dealers a mage has, so I do agree the cooldown really needs to shorten for this.

 

First I love the idea of splitting pve and pvp, kudos for finally listening to the players on that one.

I also like the idea of adding more wisdom, I'm just hoping that you guys don't mess it up.

It would be nice to see 1 hand weapons useful again, so hopefully some thought is being put into this.

I also like the idea of giving groups some incentive, but this needs a serious tweak to work. As @sebastian_fl pointed out, using frost nova for mages as a group bonus is beyond worthless. What dev thought that this was a good idea?

As the idea currently stands, you will be forcing most groups to ignore Rangers and Mages even more than they are now.

 

I will never agree that because im Dk and we alredy have 2 builds one for tank and one for 2h so i dont have room and resources to craft items for the third pvp build.if they do that then many dk will leave game.or they will start boting for resources.
This idea with pvp special items is a big pile of .. and also braking pve from pvp will.brake the game in two.They need to think again.

Also alowing players to sell items at general shop wil make bots more succesfull because we cant see them.in city anymore so who will know that bots exist.Maybe that is the reason why they do that.

 

Exactly what this awesome gentleman have said before ... when the changes have been made years ago

PvE must be separated from PvP ... in the past the talents and the honor tree were kind of separated and the PvP skills/talents were complementing the PvE not the other way around. That is why the new system sucks big time.
I don't like the idea of separate gear for PvE and PvP as well ... as for 1h items ... good for you you won't have to craft more items ... but the other classes are having no reliable 1H weapons/gear.


BTW ... are these monsters from Dracania? They suck big time ... as if I am playing Silent Hill not DSO.

 

They wouldn't "need" to create a whole separate set just for pvp, although offering another one in addition to existing sets would not be a horrible idea if it were useful in someway. We have a dozen or so sets now between the PW and events, so adding more (if useful) would be nice and might actually encourage some to play pvp.

Everyone agrees pvp is broken and has been for quite some time now. The matching system needs a serious fix, but pvp also needs more people playing. Long wait times and 1 hit kills are not encouraging people to play pvp.

Something needs to be done with the run away damage and Hp, but not something that would discourage people from wanting to find their max (no nerfing).

Maybe a mitigation based on pvp ranking. That way, the more you play, the stronger you get, instead of just buying stones and gear.

 

Is this a joke? Because i cant think that anyone with 1% common sense and 1% knowledge of this game would even bring this as a proposition and called it class balancing.

Here is proposition: erase SW as a class. Let this game be game of 3 classes. I cant think any aspect of the game as it is now where SW can fit. So just erase it. Than in few months boost a little more knights and dwarfs and than erase rangers too. After that game will be perfectly balanced and no one will complain. Than you can congrat to each others on great work you did! CG devs!

Can you please read this dear devs!? Maybe just maybe you can get little clue about what balance means:

 

I think anyone that disagrees to the nerfing of a DK is probably a DK themself, and I understand you don't won't to lose your stats, but when you are fighting other classes and they are not match, what fun is that? Also when fighting in groups, you don't do the damage, everyone else does, so you have to stand there and yell maintaining your agro while other classes attack...little damage by little..watching the bar go down slowly...Its a headache for everyone. If everyone was balanced things would be so much more enjoyable for all, and definitely more efficient. -Sidenote:BP I won't renew my premium if this doesn't get fixed. Thanks

 

SW need more power in the boss fights. The new group talents doesn't help. Take the idea back. Exchange Ice Nova to "fire nova" to deal some damage lol. When end game players are making a group for the several boss runs. Do you think that the SW is wanted because of it's great "crowd control" skills And low hp? How many bosses you will be able to freeze with the talent?

Maybe the frost nova talent could be helpful for new player venturing and starting
the painful mode in PW's. But in the end game you wan't to get the mobs cleared fast and if you can't do it in effective time your mode in too high for you.
What I mean here is that when tank gathers the mobs around him there is no time for starting to wait ice novas to cast and stun the pack, the pack has to be gone already! This is useless skill for any end game player.

Maybe you could modify the talent so it could deal good damage also otherwise
as a end game SW player I have to say this skill is useless. When we are talking about good damage it should be around +400% base damage at least.

Now... take plans back to table and design something that boost SW in the boss
fight, because it is needed. and please not stuns they are not very useful in the boss fights.

Operation group talents (balancing)= FAILED

If this how your class balance will be there is little to nothing of joy or anything of imbalance to be changed. Crafting and selling everywhere is a good function.
I like that also the reg. talent for PVE is a good balancing for solo play.