Development Team Letter - CLASS BALANCING

Discussion in 'Headquarters Archive' started by DSO Production Team, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master

    Maybe the skills do such low dmg on warriors because BP never intended to make warriors do as much dmg as a dmg dealer class (mage/ranger) and somehow, somewhere they forgot about this xD.I cannot explain why top DPS mages such as Viki (who has like 32-33k dmg) have just as much dmg as a warrior nowadays, and yet the warrior has 2x more defense/hp.I do not find this fair to be honest.

    Look at it like this.A new player starts playing a mage today from 0, and another one starts playing a warrior from 0.After 5 years (lets say) when both of them got maxed gems, lvl 60 items, full gold lines items, the player who started playing mage realised that now, after all this time, his char is crap and cannot even match the one who started playing the warrior.He cannot beat the warrior if the warrior goes with 1hand, he cannot be faster on boss kills than the warrior and so on.Im using this as an example because it pretty much sums it up for mages today.It is not cool whats happening.

    The mages are not supposed to have same dmg as tanks, rangers or dwarfs.Having the highest dmg from all 4 classes should have compensated for having the worst defense of all 4..But nowadays its like worst defense, worst dmg for mages.

    And we , those who play mages as main, come here, look at this forum for the past year, waiting for something to be done about this.What we get in return are just empty promises from the dev team, saying that they are working on a balance for like a year now.1 year since nothing was done.How much longer should we wait?
     
    -HARRA81- and EhtovK like this.
  2. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    For me that crit made me feel really weak early lv 55 i dont know about you. Can you read again what i said about destruction.... dont look the scaling look at the wind up ( time needed the spell to b e cast) and the amount you will hit ppl, if we are talking about farm ok but to be hones as you know a ranger with q7 set literrary trows destructions with each arrow i presented above that one EA = 1 destruction so tell me IS destruction still so OP.How would you feel if your EA was moved to my ice sphere and i was getting armor break for no cost with 150 dmg increase not to mention net can refresh cooldown. Im not saying that rangers are op but its pretty much better to have dwarfs and rangers in a team than to have a single mage. He needs quality of changes not dmg buffs. Probably change the way destruction works like 2 lines or zone of dmg like grimmag s explosion but less dmg idk.
    And to add you wont see archers without q7 so its pretty much every archer i dont like it but the meta is disgusting atm i would like to see 1h possible builds and this could be done if you can get pass 400 crit dmg only with 1 h build.
    P.s traki as you replied to my post thats what i said when smb says that mages have weak move sett or you again strike back with immediate post :D
     
    trakilaki likes this.
  3. EhtovK

    EhtovK Old Hand

    The archetype itself and the DPS looks "the same" on paper, but there's a core problem with the SW, you (with your SW) and I are both lightning freaks, but as such, we are aware of the limitations our most powerful skills have when fighting single moving targets, here's a scenario:

    Last night I was soloing Karabossa L5, and I never landed a central LS when she was moving, you gotta wait for her to pause to shoot her skills or be certain that you can tank a slash or two to land 2-3 decent hits, also let's not forget that after the secret Frozen Sphere nerf it doesn't even matter if it's central or not, it never deals the maximum supposed damage output, and due to the bosses high movement speed most of the time they're only scratched by it and never at optimal distance.

    So yes, you can land a few well placed hits, but here's where the disadvantage comes: RA can shoot EA, PS or whatever back and get full damage output of their skill regardless of the boss distance, a good midget will kite and keep the boss in the MG turret stream for full damage output of their skill, mechanical turrets are the same, full skill damage output without even aiming, DK will deal full skill damage output when smashing karabossa or using fury of the dragon thanks to being able to take more hits thanks to MWS, Dragon Hide+Banner of war and what not, while all this happens, SW will be running around dealing half of their skill's damage output due to boss displacement and, having to wait for the boss to stop to get in few hits means the fight goes waaaaay longer that it does for other similarly powerful toons of other classes.

    All in all, in my humble opinion, it's not that we SWs have "low damage" or "low crit" or whatever nonsense, it's the fact that we do not have a truly efficient single target skill that helps us against moving bosses, it's situational of course, bosses like Medusa, Kranparus, Sigris, Grimmag or Khalys don't pose a problem in this regard because they mostly stay put and you can LS the life outta them, but Bearach, Mortis, Arachna, Magotina, Karabossa, Big Paws, Dragan, Arachna, Heredur, and a way too long etcetera are a headache for a similarly geared SW when you compare it to other classes.
     
  4. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    I did because you called my name :p
    The casting time is not that slow as many want to present ... moreover it is a lethal skill that hits you without seeing it coming. I am not talking about PvE but PvP . You suddenly die and you don't even know what hit you ... you can't see the projectile coming until you are dead. I never said the skill is OP ... I just said the facts are deliberately being twisted. The skill is not OP as long as we talk about the skill itself ... without taking into account set buffs and bonuses.
    I don't know what you are talking about :p ... my EA has cost of 66 concentration and it doesn't have 150% damage increase. You are shifting between skills and sets back and forth ... the set buff is something different it has got nothing to do with the skill. I would like to have a longbow with x% increased damage as well ... but so far it is not happening .... the devs are only buffing up the hoaxbows.
    Incorrect ... I am not using q7 set nor hoaxbows ... as many other rangers in the game and in this forum. Yes most of the rangers are using the q7 set ... but not all rangers are using it ... those who are not using it are being discriminated and made players of a second class. And believe me the number of rangers using 1H weapons is not small at all.
    That is why the game's balance is broken.
    I don't know what kind of designer can allow 2H builds having almost same crit hit and same crit damage ... same attack speed with 1h builds ... but in the same time 2h builds to have at least triple the base damage of the 1h builds. On top of it ... the attack speed compared to the damage is limited ... even on top of it we have break points that are making it even more limited. But the damage is not limited ... you can always add more and more ... and it would be even more devastating with the upcoming tiers and the damage will rise.
    The defense can't cope with the damage because it is limited as well (80%) ... the only thing not limited is the Health which is working extremely good only with tanks .
    I would probably expect this kind of oversight (if even oversight and not intentional mess) form flower shop designer but not from a game designer.
     
    MikeyMetro and Novadude like this.
  5. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    I agree with that ... but even rangers are having difficult time hitting a moving boss/target with arrow. Midgets don't have this problem ... that is why they are efficient. The difference between SWs and RAs on one side and midgets on the other side is ... the first party has to land shots based on prediction ... the second party is lurking the target into the "flames". Of course nothing is wrong with it ... since they were designed that way ... but it is surely giving headaches to the first party and easy time to the other one.
     
  6. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    Flower shop designer... I laughed.
     
    trakilaki likes this.
  7. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master


    Exactly.Ive said it many times here on forums yet no one understood.Even if u have 40k dmg as a SW when the rest has 20k, you will still su_ck because u wont be able to be as fast as a DK or as fast as a ranger /dwarf on boss kills.You have to move a lot and your best skills are pathetic in boss fights because they either miss a lot (lightning strike/ice sphere on bosses like heredur for instance) or you miss a lot .Either the SWs skills get a huge dmg boost/rework in pve(something like less mana cost/time till impact) to compensate for the fact that u either miss a lot or have to move a lot (which means u lose time every time u fight a boss) or u give the SWs a crazy hp regeneration to be able to sit and attack more instead of being most of the time on the run.

    The only ones who dont have problems here and u dont see them complain on forums are warriors and dwarfs.Even if the target sits in one spot or moves, they are ok with that because their skills allows them to fight moving or static targets.Yet if u play as a mage or ranger vs bosses that move your lightning strike is useless, your ice sphere is useless because you cant hit crap with these skills.Which is why these skills have to be reworked.

    And this is yet another reason why mages and rangers should have a much higher dmg than warriors and not the other way around.Our defense does not allow us to just stay in one spot and attack our target like warriors or dwarfs do.We have to move a lot and our skills miss a lot, not matter how skilled u are.So if the devs are looking for a balance, heres a good place to start.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  8. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    I like the idea of LS being reworked however im here since lv 40 the ONLY rework or buff done to mage is simply when they released q8 so that ice missle fits the set i have only seen bad things ( chain lightning hits now 3 instead of all hoard of monsters back then , fire ball was burning for i think 100 percent more dmg for less period, now it burns for 90 prcent for more amount of time so the dmg dealt is less each second so that the tanks can heal up easier the dmg ) In my oppinion fire ball should be reworked. Fireball is the only spell which is not good to use in Pve compared to the other classes am i right?
     
  9. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    What's wrong with a 2 mana cost spell that deals 126% dmg and 90% DoT DMG, AoE effect and nice framerate? Since they added Khalis' pauldrons I just wonder why Q7 SWs still use Q8 (probably just because they already crafted something on those items or because they haven't any peridots...).
     
  10. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Couuld you please say that again?) Why would anyone use fireballs in PvE? I still don't follow. I do have peridots and khalys pauldrons.
     
  11. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    Because it's the highest DMG auto attack you got?
     
  12. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Perhaps, on paper. Do you play mage?) Fireball will hit the first mob dealing no damage behind him. It requires higher attack speed, 1.91 vs 1.78, doesnt save mana on subsequent ice spheres which are far more usefull. I think I would clear the q1 ring twice as fast with ice comparing to fireball.

    But most importantly, it requires q7 set, another useless pve item like fireball itself.
     
  13. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    On my spare time but, most of all, since anyone is givin suggestions on classes they don't know how to play, I'm fully legitimate to genuinly ask what's wrong with a skill that "on paper" has nothing wrong.
    From my tests it makes a small AoE around the target efficiently clearing the first line behind the target if it hasn't a huge hitbox (aka skeletons, works worse on cyclopes and so on)
    I don't know what are you comparing, if we talk about ice sphere and fireball they have the same framerates, if you are comparing it with ice missiles I don't get where you took those breakpoint because they seem wrong, always comparing ice missiles with fireball, you get 126% dmg against 90% dmg, seems a good deal 36% more dmg per 5 frames difference (obviusly speaking about boss fights).
    SW regenerate 10mana/sec (or even more I didn't check exactly), FB costs 2 mana/hit, you have max 3 attack/sec, in the worst case you regen 4 mana/sec (or even more accordly to your ASPD).
    Why not? Fireball should substitute ice missile and not Ice Sphere.
    Much understimated set I'd say when there are lazy players that do not want use MC + Singu to reset the cooldowns.
    In group, against bosses, it's basically a 100% uptime 150% inc dmg.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  14. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Ice saves mana for the ice sphere. Ice missile breakpoint is lower than the fireballs.

    Are you certain it only deals 90% dmg total? Anyway, I'm no using it on bosses. Neither would I use fireball. Q7 is junk on bosses, as it has much less dmg output on essences. It is only equal (still worse) on Green. It requires firing the meteor all the time, watching the cooldowns closely. And if you use MC->Singu-meteor you don't have much mana left for the lighting. If you messed once with the reset, you are not just without singu, but also without damage boost waiting for meteor to cool down.

    With q4, I can fire 5 LS in a row, followed by 5 more after teleport. 2-3 magic missiles and then another cycle of 10 after reset with MC-Singu-Teleport. Starting with blue, q7 is nowhere close. With purple and higher it shouldn't even be mentioned, as it will suck even to Emilia weapon.

    150% Inc Dmg is not 150% damage output. Q4 bonuses work on top of everything, q7 bonus does not.

    Mrgd.

    If you have 10k absolute damage, and then you have 50% from talent, 100% from items, your dmg is 25k. With q7 bonus, your dmg is just 40k. This is in case of green ess, assuming your weapon does only have IDOTI lines, not a single increased damage line.

    Should we use blue, in the same example you no bonus dmg is:
    10k +250% = 35k
    With q7 bonus - 50k. It's only plus 40% on top.

    With q4 you get 75% + 50% If charged.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
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  15. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    Only on trashes and anyway on large packs of mobs you don't rely on Q8 buff anyway to spam spheres (you just need the talent).
    Alternate fireball and Ice sphere gives much more clearing efficiency.
    5 frames against 35% more dmg + DoT dmg 90%
    I'm used to do this all the time
    Meteor costs 50 mana, LS costs 50 mana... what are you talking about?
    You've got a second singu out of cooldown in 30" to reset again the metheor cooldown but this is gonna be a useless speech, no math, no test, just speculation.
    The cycle seems a lot the same as the one with meteor with the little loss that you sacrifice the first lightning strike for 1 meteor (everything else is exactly the same).
    Raw dmg isn't all as well, I only look at the leaderboards points per second to see the efficiency of a set.
    On my experience they are basically the same, Q7 has some advantages in maps and Q4 has slight avantage in boss fight (in group).
    When solo Bearach (which is the only boss that keeps moving), spamming fireball is just twice effective instead of magic missiles or ice missiles (and to some extents LS which will miss a lot).
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  16. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Mortis is moving ... Grimmag is moving ... Arachna is moving ... Heredur is moving ... even M'Edusa is moving (but she has a great range that covers a small room).
    Try playing without tank in the group ... you never know unless you try :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
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  17. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

  18. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    What "it looks static" due to player's strategy is not the same with "is static" as designed.
    That been said ... you just confirmed what Sebastian is saying. :D
     
    EhtovK likes this.
  19. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    When someone is using the wrong strategy and you support it, both of you are doing it wrong.
    Actually I have yet to understand what's his point.
    Noone denyed this statement
    Nor this one
    the best we can assume is that, based on his perspective

    I understand his PoV because he's defendin his build/setup, still other setups do have other advanges he doesn't want recognize (starting from how he's valuating the efficiency of a set).
     
  20. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    I'm not defending my setup. I have q7 setup as well. And q7 mixed with witch seeker. And all the others. I kill all bosses on Inf2 solo, all but mortis on Green essence. I can keep Berarch in place to use LS. When I see people killing bosses with fireball, seriously, I just laugh (there is one 'the best mage' who does that).

    All im defending is mathematics which says q7 is junk. or, let's say, questioning your claims, so other SW seeing what you say do not take it as some proven consensus thruth. What you claim is very very debatable.

    Using fireball again mobs is just another nonsense. Make some tests on serious map. Q8 is the best mob farming set.

    Actually, all you are saying looks like defending your setup, with perhaps only one crafted weapon, or whatever combination of sets you have chosen. I have tried both, have both T5, 4 gold lines. Sometime i still use q7, when no gold to change back after pvp - and it sucks. But you don't play mage, so guess you don't have anything crafted or tested on serious level.

    Did you know that fireball burn doesn't stack? So you would only get a burn on the first shot. After that, it is just 126% against 1 mob. Each fireball still eats mana, not generates it. 2 shots of the ice missile, however, let you fire LS or IS right away no matter how low your mana was. With fireball you just ... wait ... to get enough mana for another fireball, because that only skill you have)

    Another aspect. With q4/q8 you can use all the benefits of both sets when farming mobs. Every hit with LS has the bonus. With q7, though, you need to run meteor cycle. With MC, perhaps. And then, whole team is waiting for the MC-ed mob to get free. To get this bonus you always rely on the cycle. You canno5 just run through... minibosses are being killed much faster than cooldown on meteor restores.

    But it's all just words and it's hard to explain until you try it. Farming mobs without q8 sucks. Farming bosses without Q4 sucks. It will take much more time and way more essences.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
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