Development Team Letter - CLASS BALANCING

Discussion in 'Headquarters Archive' started by DSO Production Team, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. ULTRAPEINLICH

    ULTRAPEINLICH Forum Duke

    Oh cmon...we have far worse problems in this game than people that play a friend's character once for a single testing purpose.

    This guy has put a lot of effort in his analysis and I appreciate it, he summarized the current meta and current problems very well, this should be forwarded to the devs.
    It's obvious that he doesn't lack player /game experiene/knowlegde.
    @rogue07 thanks for your effort

    :D :D :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
    rogue07 likes this.
  2. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Each time the rules get broken there are some who come out in support of those who broke them.

    What's the point of having rules if people break them and nothing happens?
     
  3. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    There are mods in here to enforce the rules. Did he broke them or didn't is irrelevant, non of our business. What he wrote is important, but whats the point of discussing what he wrote if everyone can just focus on sharing part, right?
     
  4. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    How many threads are there on the imbalance in this game? His post is just the latest and won't be the last. He isn't wrong, there is imbalance, this isn't a secret. However the way he went about it was wrong (logging into another account).

    In my opinion, the ends do not justify the means.
     
  5. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master


    Everyone is focusing on the sharing part because they know that what he wrote is true (the part where he is saying that the sw is crap and provided some strong arguments to support that).If they were to talk about that part, then many more will join the talk and maybe BP will make some changes if they see that so many agree/complain about that...obviously not many want that to happen so they just pretend nothing happened and focus on talking about silly things^^

    This.
     
    rogue07 likes this.
  6. FailMaster

    FailMaster Forum Greenhorn

    Well, I decided to make some calculations in support of those who claim game is really imbalanced...
    Lets assume we have 30k dmg mage with 80% crit, 5x crit dmg. Warrior with 200k hp, 80% block rate, 70% block, 80% resist. He also has new lifekeeper.
    The mage would deal dmg * ((1-critchance) + critchance * critdmgmultiplier) * (1 - resist) * ((1 - blockrate) + blockrate * (1 - block)) * 1.26 - hp * 0.004.
    This is 13k dmg. Which means mage will need to land 15 hits to kill DK. I doubt that dk will allow that...
    And what about PVE? Lets compare mage with ranger(I won't take ranger's Adrenaline and mage's Blink resource regeneration into consideration as calculations would then take too much time. Also I didnt multiply everything by critdmg because the proportion SW's dmg output/ RA's dmg output would remain the same):
    Ranger fires explosives 2 seconds per 7.2 seconds (slightly inaccurate number, but close to truth). During the same time he gets 7.2 * 8 = 57.6 concentration which allows him to fire almost 2 precise shots (to simplify, he fires 2 shots. It takes him 1 second). The rest of the time he uses hunting arrows.
    That is 500% * 2 seconds * attackspd * dmg + 300% * 2 shots * dmg + 66% * attackspd * dmg * 4.2 seconds. That should be divided by 7.2 seconds. Lets assume our sw and ra have 2 attacks/second and 30k dmg. Then RA has ~131k dmg/sec.
    SW has lightning strike which deals 4.75x dmg with bearach set and costs 50 mana. Magic missile regenerates 5 mana and has 100% base dmg. During a 10 sec period mage can fire about 4 lightning strikes and 16 mana missiles. That is about 100k dmg.
    And rangers can also use deadly blow most of the time instead of ordinary arrow which would increase their dmg to about 158k dmg. As far as i know, there is no such way to increase dmg as a SW(destruction takes second to fire, costs a lot of mana, so it is pointless).
    If there are mistakes in the calculations, let me know.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  7. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    You subtract HP*0.004 per hit, but to be a stickler for detail, that would need to be normalized by the block rate. With an 80% block rate, the hypothetical DK would only heal 4/5 hits, so for the average, you can view this term as 0.8*HP*0.004.

    Also, not so much to do with your calculation (which looks to be based on fireball), but a more general comment: fireball is a bad skill to use against a Lifekeeper DK because the burn can trigger the heal too and it's damage is lower.

    There are a great many other considerations to take into account too. Most people who complain about 1H DKs in the arena complain about a crafted lifekeeper enabling a balanced build with both damage and defenses, and I freely admit, those builds are scarry. What you described above is not such a balanced build.

    But lets talk about what a fight with such a monster tank would look like. With the kind of tank you are describing, the DK wouldn't have anything resembling respectable run speed since he'd need HP lines on the boots. He'd be slowed by using Mobil Fortress for block and his DPS wouldn't be that impressive either. With 200k HP in the arena, that means he's got no crit damage or significant crit since his rings would be % HPotI, his amulet would be %HP, and his helmet would be %HP, so most of his DPS will come from his damage with a crafted Lifekeeper. The problem is, to get to the 80%/80% armor/resist means his belt is probably a mix of % Resist and % IRotI and the torso is probably all armor. His damage may be impressive (6k-7k range) from just a crafted Lifekeeper, but without the crit/crit damage, it wouldn't be the end of the world. For what the defensive stats would look like vs the offensive ones, check out this build (items). That is with pet (34%), Battle Frenzy (20%), and a full group (5%) for a total of 59% HP that he would not have in the arena. That means that his HP would be somewhere closer to 170k. I hope this sheds some light on just how difficult it would be to get to the 200k mark without all the PvE only bonouses. His offenses could hurt a SW of the caliber you describe, but only if the DK could catch the SW... which leads me to my next point.

    A fight against an ultra tank should be a fight to exhaustion. If the SW was smart, he or she would run around avoiding the DK all fight until regen is stopped by exhaustion and then proceed to nuke the DK with massive amounts of burst damage. Since both players lose HP at a % per second rate, as long as the SW lands a couple strong hits and the DK didn't land a bunch during the first phase of the fight, the SW will win. In these fights, ice missile is actually useful, despite it healing the DK for more damage than they take because it slows them and keeps them away... after all, the goal is to survive until exhaustion isn't a concern anymore.

    The kind of DK builds you should be afraid of in the arena is a hybrid build that has high crit, high crit damage, and respectable defenses with a crafted Lifekeeper. For an example of what you should really fear, check out this build with a nice weapon. It has a bunch of buffs (Belt of Zeal, Witch set, pet), but even without those, he is probably looking at 8k-11k damage. Also, he has his defense censored, but if I had to guess, he is likely using a lot of ths 2H gear to achieve that damage/speed/crit/crit damage and his defenses are probably about 80k HP or less (without pet) with 70% armor/resist.

    Just speaking as a math guy and a DK, next time you are doing a 1H DK Arena analysis, use 120k-130k as the HP if you are looking at a crafted Lifekeeper build that is also focused on chasing down running ranged class and killing them whit high damage and crit as opposed to a "death by 1000 cuts" DK that tries to land a bunch of small hits and then let exhaustion do the rest. The ultra high defense numbers are possible, but are actually easier to kill in 1v1 if you use exhaustion to evening the playing field. The problem is that this requires patience and most SWs just want a quick win so they can move on to their next victim.
     
    Zabark likes this.
  8. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Man, you missed it all) burn doesn't trigger lifekeeper regen anymore. Was fixed long time ago. If it wasn't fixed, there would be zero skills mage has against DK. But there is zero skills anyway. There is nothing any mage with any stats and any gameplay can do to end game DK. Tanks will regen all the damage they take even in the balanced mode while mage hit once cannot get it back. The only 'viable' strategy is to run for 2 minutes hoping for no hits and playing with no regen afterwards. But I tried it too with 91% runspeed. Doesn't work. And forget about ice sphere and lighting strikes, you will no hit a tank more than once in 1 minute.

    His math is wrong as it doesn't account for the regen. Tank with those stats will need 50 fireballs to die, and he will only need to catch that mage twice to kill, with all the stuns he has. Because that tank in question is also running with 10k dmg, 80% crit, and *2.5 crit dmg. And that tank, trust me, has 80% run speed easily. 39+15 on boots, 10 from keen, 8 from gwenfara cape, some from points. And also a 15% run speed bonus from keen when blocking.

    But if you are curious about the standing HP monsters, here is a picture.
    [​IMG]
    Now give him new lifekeeper, with 200% IDOTI.

    Or change all of that to premium set from cubes, to get 50% crit dmg and 50% more hp.
    There are a bunch of threads about new lifekeeper and tanks being immortal in general, so I wouldn't start a new one. I personally gave up. As of today, mage is junk designed to kill meat. That's all mage can kill.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  9. rcch

    rcch Junior Expert

    Good dwarfs,rangers & dks in my guild are able to to do this
    As a mage I wish I could do the same(kill mortis inf2 on green) this easily. And fyi. Gems/items/glyphs.. They are in shape :) . There is no balance if 1 class is so much weaker than others with end game builds.

    Idea:Maybe they could mage guardian like real guardian also on end bosses(1000x more hp 3x more time to live) and remove immunities from end bosses for guardians taunts and singularity for example
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  10. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    It accounts for Lifekeeper regen, but not Battle Frenzy Regen. That just further reinforces why it is important to wait for exhaustion.
    First, subtract 56%-62% HP because he has the Fennec pet (10%+ bonus of 21%-27%), a 5 person group (5%), and Battle Frenzy (20%).
    Premium set:
    Compared to the build you showed, they only gain 30% crit damage (because it loses the 20% crit damage 2/2 set bonus from Heredur) but they'd still have garbage crit since they will only have one HP/Crit ring and helmets would be 38%-39% HP. Also, that 50% HP comes at the expense of 10% block strength (0.25-0.30 strength loss because you switch shields and the Heredur shield has block strength as a unique value), the HP regen associated with Lifekeeper (one of the biggest factors in your complaint), 1000 flat HP (for the 1/4 set bonus from the Bloodmoon amulet) multiplied by total % HP that then has to be made up for by the 50%, and they lose 1%/second regen from one of their RoL. Yes, their HP goes up (but not as much as you might think due to the loss of 1000*%HP at the same time), but their block strength goes down and they lose regen on blocked hits.

    Also, that build above has no run speed. By my estimate, he has (10%+5%-5%)=+10% run speed with an extra 15% on block. If you think has speed runes in that build, you're wrong. And if you can't outrun that DK with 91% run speed, that is your fault and no one else's. And did you miss where I said:
    I'm not arguing that balanced Lifekeeper builds are scary and are the top arena build in the game at the moment. I am arguing that defeating a DK with 200k+ HP and Lifekeeper tank only build in the arena are not as hard as FailMaster makes it sound for the following reasons:
    1. Those builds, even with a crafted Lifekeeper, don't suddenly have OHKO power... not even 2HKO power. They rely on a bunch of small hits to kill, or at least have the opponents HP low enough that exhaustion does it's job.
    2. Those builds are slow. To sacrifice 120% HPotI encantments and 150% HPotI from runes on boots for speed would result in a loss of over 25k HP, making the already difficult to reach 200k mark even more difficult. Or they could sacrifice HP, Block Rate, or Damage with wisdom points, but then they are either losing defenses (making them easier to kill) or losing DPS (making it harder for them to kill you).
    3. Regen is only relevant until exhaustion. Play to that strength. If you are facing adversity real life and you don't adjust, you will keep failing in the same way. The same is relevant in the game. If you don't want to change your strategy, don't be surprised that you have the same kind of results. Sure, it would be nice if PvP was balanced in such that you didn't have to rely on a gimmick. Do you want to wait until BigPoint gets around to doing that, or will you adapt?
    These ultra tanks should not be fought until 2 mins are up and they can't regen. In the mean time, keep them slowed with ice. They'll stay at full HP, but so will you. Then guardian, meteors, fireballs, singularities, and even more ice missiles just need to do enough damage to make sure the DK dies first from exhaustion. You will be frustrated and angry as you try to evade the DK and thinking how cheap it is that DKs can regen so much. Meanwhile, the DK is frustrated and angry that he can't catch you and land a hit and thinking how cheap it is that he'll soon be taking damage from exhaustion even though you just ran all fight. It goes both ways.

    As said above, no DK is going to have those stats and 200k HP/80%resistance/80%armor/80%Block. There are some insane builds out there, but a heavy hitting 1H DK is going to have far less than 200k HP and perfect defensive stats. I've seen a bunch of insane tank builds and a couple of decent 1H offensive builds, but what you are describing is baseless. That is why I said:
    That is reasonable... 200k is not.

    If I was estimating what a "killer 1H DK" looks like, I'd say it has the following stats:
    9k-11k or 7.5k-9.5k Damage (crafted Lifekeeper vs crafted axe)
    2.0 Attack Speed
    130k HP
    75% Armor
    80% Block Rate
    70% Block Strength
    65% or 80% Crit Rate (Crafted Lifekeeper vs crafted Axe)
    2.7x Crit Damage
    70% Resistance
    70% run speed (+ 15% more on block)

    If you want to prove me wrong, or put me in my place, show me a build that is that good or better. That is a build that would scare me a lot more than a hypothetical 200k HP DK like the one you showed or FailMaster proposed.
     
  11. ULTRAPEINLICH

    ULTRAPEINLICH Forum Duke

    In pvp a decent dk has more or less a 100% uptime of that buff
    Incorrect. They won't have garbage crit, it's more than enough to reach ~65-70%crit (adornment, 2x base crit on ring, blood tooth%, gems in cape...), which is more than enough to kill mages and even rangers.
    They will use the 3pc spider bonus, which's buff will make up for the missing block strength, synergizing well with all sorts of healing. An unlike lifekeeper (which you actually didnt know...) dots do trigger the dragan/spider buff
    You dont play much pvp/you're not an experienced pvp player are you? The RoL regen has been deactivated since the lvl 55 expansion...

    As well as resistances and armor value thanks to unique abilites...

    Yes he was using hp runes, but he can easily switch to runspeed runes and even give up some dmg/hp for runspeed, at that point (above 200k hp) that won't make a big difference.
    I'm sorry but you don't seem experienced in highend pvp. The stats you think are reasonable for a "1h killer dk" can even be reached by a ranger, add 2-3k dmg, add 30-50%crit dmg and subtract 20k hp and you have the stats of some highend rangers. Your proposed 75%AV however is a joke, every serious highend pvp char has 80%AV :rolleyes:
     
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  12. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Baragain, respectfully, I already play with 170k+ hp heavy hitters with 80% run speed. I guy from my guild has that. Without lifekeeper. They regen it all with the skill. Not mentioning what happens if tank's hp drops.

    The chicken farming builds with no Dmg are possible to kill. They are pretty harmless. But no one plays like that except for daily. I talk about smart end game PVP balanced builds, shifted towards HP to exploit smart balancing decision by BP.

    Now you claim a mage with an equal run speed can run from a tank for 2 minutes without getting a single hit on the 1v1 map. I just can believe it is you who is claiming this. You understand two same speed opponents running different radius, tank getting closer every second? And that tank also have a skill to increase run speed, and will get 15% boost when hit once. Are you certain to make a statement that you, playing a mage would run from an equal tank for 2 minutes without receiving a single hit?

    Now you also advise this is a strategy - you understand how ridiculous it sounds, especially from You? Is this proper game design? To run 2 minutes and then try to fight for 5 seconds?

    If you want me to build 200k hp tank with good speed and 10k dmg and close to max crit and *2.5 crit dmg all at the same time, I will when I get back to the laptop and the game on Tue. But I really hope you can do it yourself.

    Just in case, take into account Christmas runes, 3x4% crit each, 5x royal onyxes, perfect crafted adornment. Premium ring offers both crit and hp. Also take into account solstice runes, 3 or 4.

    If you think one needs to have 4x armor torso to get 80%, think again. I have one like that myself, 242% armor, plus a bunch of runes. 1 that item alone gives me almost all I need, and having armor in other random items makes it already way too much.

    Since you wanted a build, and Fradar just posted his in public, here it is. One of the monsters of grimmag. Trust me, he is immortal. And this is not full potential, ofc. Tons of run speed too) will catch anyone on the server.

    [​IMG]

    Trade 1 crit dmg ring for hp ring. Well, guess you get the idea.

    I have 78.5% in my glass canon setup without golden armor line on torso))))

    Btw, for is the base damage line on 1handed items? Mage' best is premium, a little over 4 hundreds. Archers have Gwenfara bow with 500+. I heard, and it looks so from the T0 items, new T5 lifekeeper also has more damage than any 1handed mages have.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
    ULTRAPEINLICH likes this.
  13. rogue07

    rogue07 Someday Author

    i think i might know the two you speak of, if you're from Tegan.
    if not, well i know a couple who met on Tegan and got married a couple years ago too, really nice people.
    one is a SW and the other is a DK.

    think they've been around for like 5 years
    now they just log on occasionally :p


    Yeah I know how you feel, though i dont have as many years worth of runes and gems as you do, I've still invested so much time, passion and money into my SW.

    you know the situation is bad when, the entire server has about 4 active high-end level SW with full royal/sacreds and finished craft.
    as compared to rangers where there are about 10+
    about 10+ for dk too think
    somewhere between 8-10 for steam mechs

    after the 4 top SW on my server (out of which 1 only logs on to do dailies and now focuses on his DK)
    I think I might be next in line after. having run with all the active strongest players on server and having been very active in PvP, its just those 4 that i ever run into, well 3 now bec the other guy doesnt even bother to pvp anymore lol

    so yeah, if i could change my class to Ranger (bec i prefer ranged class) even at the cost of like $200 i would do it in a heartbeat lol
    or if i cant have ranger, then at least DK
    (midgets just arent very pleasing to the eyes)
    it might at actually keep me from retiring my character, which im planning to do within the next week or so.

    plus, i already have witch seeker set in the storage so id be happy to finally be a class that's capable of using them lol



    in regard to the 1h monsters in pvp

    there's a 1h DK in my guild, cool guy and one of the most reliable tanks on server

    all royal gems, fully crafted and perfected adorn, im not all too sure what build he uses, think he might be using a crafted axe for the extra crit. he runs a 1h damage build, but i know it took about 160k damage to kill him, one of the few times i managed to get him in a singularity, meteor and hit a few spheres - in 5v5

    he does 10k+ with each hit at blinding fast speeds, my SW has 61% armor and 11% damage reduction in PvP talents, and unless i add points in hp he can delete my SW in a second.

    I've run dungeons with him, and he still runs at the same speed as my SW, so he might be using speed on shoes.


    but what i do know is, when he is in 5v5, always has highest damage and best Kill : death ratio (KDR). I have watched him take on an entire team solo, then grab flag and carry it back to base.
    anyone thats ever been with him in 5v5 knows that the team that will win is the team that he's on lol

    in all the time that ive done pvp, i have yet to see any other class do the same, aside from a specific ranger i know who switched to 1h for pvp



    in all honesty i think its about finding the right balance between enchantments and wisdom talents.

    since every point in move speed is just 1% but every point in hp is 3%
    crafting full move speed shoes and getting to keep all those points in wisdom for hp for example.


    and for pvp, i think itd be best to opt for 3 IWD and 1 %dmg build, for 1h players and non-herald users.

    since total base damage is about the proper balance of IWD:%DMG ratio

    factoring in the extra damage bonus in pvp, going full IWD for a non herald set build in pvp will leave you with less total damage than you would with the alternative




    as an additive bit of info that should not be dismissed:

    I've played with 2 spellweavers in pvp who often max out their hp in wisdom talents, these players use the meta build which full crit rate, crit dmg, inc dmg, move speed, etc --- i.e. glass canon build

    these SWs hit 60-70k hp just by moving all their points to hp.


    now rangers get exactly 10% more hp from gems and equipment, so lets just roughly add 10% to that 60-70k = 66-77k hp if they were rangers with the exact same build

    dragonknights get 30% more hp from gems and equipment, so lets do the same here as well, that 60-70k hp = 78-91k hp with the same build


    i know the equation isnt accurate in terms of how much more they would have in comparison, but roughly thats an estimate.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  14. rogue07

    rogue07 Someday Author

    So I did some digging today and I managed to grab some videos of high end level players pulling off their best feats.
    this is in regards to the current "balance" of classes and where all classes stand in the current Meta.





    DRAGONKNIGHT

    Dragonknight red ess 50 second mortis infernal 2 kill:


    Dragonknight green ess arachna infernal 2:




    RANGER


    Ranger infernal 2 mortis green ess:



    - couldn't find any equally strong ranger or the ranger himself using red essence for solo infernal 2 boss





    STEAM MECH


    Steam mechanic infernal 2 arachna green ess:



    this next sm is relatively weaker damage wise but I wanted to show the fact that he's tanking mortis inf 2:




    SPELLWEAVER


    --- Couldn't seem to find any high-end level spellweaver videos online, so if anyone could contribute any Spellweavers pulling off equally great feats, please post and I'll include them in this post ---


    important: High-end SW I mean spellweavers with over 24k+ base damage at least on green ess, with an upwards of x4.4 crit dmg multiplier.


    reasoning is, my Spellweaver has 20k base damage on green ess, with x4.4 crit damage and 80% crit rate. and i dont consider myself a High-end spellweaver, due to the fact that I only have 2 sacred rubies, 3 flawless and 1 radiant, also my staff is 100 damage below gold base t5 would be at lvl60, also my onyxes are the same state as my rubies are.

    therefore, i managed to find out that every 1 point from rubies in my weapon equates to roughly 20 base damage.
    meaning with if i replaced my current rubies with all royals: 300 - 184 = 116

    116 would add around 2320 base damage for my SW
    and with extra 100 from gold base staff would add another 2000 base dmg

    meaning 24320 base damage, and that i consider to be a high-end spellweaver, without using witchseeker set of course. since as i mentioned, seeker set sucks for SW.

    p.s. High-end SW also use 2 dmg 2 crit helmet, due to the fact that with royal onyxes and finished craft, etc, the player would easily overcap crit rate in infernal 2 if using 4x crit helmet.

    ultimately, thats how high-end SWs are capable of having 26k base damage.





    i based my values on top SWs on my server.
    on tegan, Darkman has 24.5k base damage with sigris set, i doubt he uses damage on helm either.

    another SW on my server, who prob wont appreciate name dropping, but has 26k base damage due to using 2 dmg 2 crit on helmet.

    neither of them use seeker set.

    these are the top 2 spellweavers on my server. so either my server doesnt have any top spellweaver or the people who told you their stats were lying, considering the stats i mentioned are based on photographic evidence.


    p.s. there is a way for a person to have 30k base dmg with sigris set, and that involves using 2 IWD and 2 Inc Dmg enchants on staff.

    but the problem with this build is, the player can achieve maximum possible green ess damage BUT their essence and herald buff damage falls horribly short, not being able to amount to even 45k base damage on red ess.






    this entire mindset is the issue with the game. look at the thread name, this isn't call "class bashing" this a debate about the current state of the game and balance amidst the classes. an important topic that needs to be addressed, hence why the dso team MADE THIS THREAD. they want feedback from its players.

    so please if this thread upsets you, just look the other way, as this is a necessary part of the game's growth and development.


    p.s. i can make a video of a Dragonknight with blue items soloing excruciating dungeons including bosses on green essence.
    so what you really need to do is craft, crafting is the lifeblood of this game.

    keep in mind a crafted purple item is massively stronger than mostly any uncrafted unique.


    about what you mentioned in regards to pvp, i have watched a tank with 160k hp in pvp that took me quite some time including chasing to kill, about say 30 seconds. but then a weaker ranger on my team 2 shots him with net and EA, the 2nd EA pretty much deleted the tank.

    this needs to be addressed.



    also we talk about end game because thats the focus of the game, sure of course the growth curve needs to be adjusted too due to some classes being absolutely horrible prior to finishing craft and transferring to uniques.


    end game reveals the true total potential of the game and its classes, and only then is it possible to fully evaluate a class.


    no offense to you,
    have a good day.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  15. Nelias

    Nelias Someday Author

    This war isnt nothing special on heredur people like kingodino,ponos79 or valak have much better stats. over 150k hp 300% critical dmg and 11k dmg. Ponos had 120k with 10k dmg long time ago before they intorduce event with 40% hp rune. Now these guys have armor80%, rezist80% and crazy reduction with old shield from wargulf event. And some mages from grimag showed me their screens from 1vs1 where they did 750k dmg to warrior and still lose 2vs1. and we speak about mages with 150 mana and near 30k dmg
    immortal warriors are cancer of this game since bete.. Before they had better armor and hp now when we can have same armor as they have, they must have now much better gems and crazy stuns with more dmg than most mage's skills..
    best comapare is ice nova with q3 set, that deal about 112% dmg and warriors have 175% and on charge too.

    boter dk from grim server killed arachna inf2 for 16sec


    TOP sw or anybody can have 29k dmg with sigri set. with 3 part of witchseeker you can have 33 or oven 34k dmg
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  16. xXxTroublexXx

    xXxTroublexXx Forum Apprentice

    I'm going to keep it short:

    you guys are too much focused on end end end game. I have a war, but he can't tank inf1, guess what I never find a group to play with, because everybody is doing inf1 and inf2. If somebody is doing lower mods there are strong enough to do it solo and all the non-war classes that can't do fatal solo just go leech on inf1 and inf2 with group, something a war cannot do. To my experience I get the most progress by playing 2h build solo and guess what I'm playing 95% of time solo and it is not funny.
    If you have a non-OP war, being a war is a lot worse than any other class.

    Further: when you can't kill somebody: adjust your style, skills and wisdom, as easy as that. Like baragain already mentioned and it is true: a high def war: keep out of his reach and start dealing dmg when he can't regen anymore. Everybody is always complaining about the regen skills, but they only matter if you want to finish duel in 10 seconds. From the moment the regen stops, every other char deals way more dmg than tanky war.
    Same with 5vs5 if tank there has the flag, he is slow and 90% of time will have a double armor break, now make your calculations again.
    I realy think nobody is unstoppable: compare 2 equaly good chars and with all the possible setups available in the game, there is simple no 'best' char. stop bashing at each other with your boxed view.
     
  17. Nelias

    Nelias Someday Author

    nobody is unstoppable? you shoud see kingodino on 3vs3 where he met 2x 25dmg rangers 1 mage with 32k dmg and he still managd kill them alone. These guys obtain 12k dmg from fireballs and hit 20k with every stuns crosss 75% armor. normal mage with 40k hp and 70% armor dia just from one jump + dragan laser from him. His seizmic wave gived me 26k dmg cross 74% fire rezist. and he heals 3200 per sec..and really doesnt matter that mage can have on max 80k hp with 400% critical dmg with khaly shield when with simle logic if mage with 30k dmg hit 11-15k dmg blocked firballs to war like kingodino how many will hit mage with 12k dmg? 5-6k fireball max? without healing and war will hit him 8k with every jump charge. and start with 130-150k hp.who has advantage in these figts?
    So you are simly telling bp shoud keep all these advatage as regen or op hp gems to allow every noob with very bad stats tank inf1? if you think you are only one as dk who has problem to find group or kill bosses solo with low stats then why every day 10 rangers or mages write me if i can inv them for farm?
    I will tell you shock news even a ranger with q7 set and 9 dmg without critic have problem kill any infernal boss solo. so stop telling ******** and start work on your stats..I kill as mage every boss on infernal 2 easy solo except mortis but my point is that as dk or ranger i coud do it for 1/3 time. And mortis inf2 i barely kill solo wit red and potions but as war with my offensive stats i could do it easy solo with green ess with zero potions..
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
    ULTRAPEINLICH likes this.
  18. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    That was not the point. I posted what I found few min before the post. The point was to show baragain he underestimates the DK reality. But actual stats of that tank of the others don't matter. The point is - there is a potential to build an immortal character of one very specific class with the best stats of all other classes yet enormous regen that will triple his HP (which is already 30% bigger) over the course of the match. Plus add an item that makes 90% opponent skills useless on top of that.

    There is no potential way to build anything like that with the spellweaver. There is no build, no items, no nothing spellweaver can do to defeat tank.

    And as videos show, tanks will in seconds kill inf2 bosses mages need minutes for. Tanks will just stand there and hit, while mages should run around like chickens, wasting much more resources.

    There is nothing remotely balanced in this game.

    PS. 've seen the tank you mentioned, Valak, posted his stats on 2h. I have almost everything about the same on my mage. Same dmg, same crit, same crit dmg. Less HP ofc. But I wouldn't be able to do anything remotely close to what he can do in PVE with about the same stats.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  19. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    I thought it was only gaming experience but it is obvious it is a lack of life experience too :D
    When you cheat on your girlfriend/wife you don't say what you did and share with her friends.
    When you do illegal activities you don't talk about it to people from your neighborhood ... especially if they are cops.
    When you do some "testing" on your friends account you don't talk about it in the forums.
    ----
    Those are some of the basic life rules.
    Obviously you don't read
    Nah you won't be banned (but it is still illegal) ... if they do that to all gangbangers the servers would be empty. :D
    I am happy for you big guy :) ... really I am :)
    ... there it goes ... your achievement :) blown with the wind ... %damage on 1h weapons

    I already told you the reason but you don't read ... just like you don't read anything (see above)
    My TS SW is not for playing and having fun ... I am using it to test and work. I certainly have no intention to farm gear at TS ... I use whatever comes to my possession . I had nothing else to use but RoL so i did craft it as a part of the wiki guide (you can see it there) ... and I was using it until I bought Ring of Death with materi fragments ... and later on I got Dragan's Ring as well.
    If i were to play the SW for fun I wouldn't be having items with enchantments as these:
    [​IMG]
    I play for fun at live server ... I don't even take into consideration enchantments like ^ these ... I sell/melt them.
    on live server I craft items like these:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    ^ exo to leg craft ... i have one more similar bow which I will use to get 4x 51%+ IDotI bow.
    ... etc.
    probably one of the curses playing on ghost sever ... SWs with your stats belong to "almost average" category on Grimmag ...
    What for? His comments are on place while yours are not ... he is consistent and talks about PvE while you are talking about PvE just to twist it into PvP ... that is why Sebastian and UltraWhipped are supporting you . Especially Sebastian ... ask him why the arena is empty while he is playing there. The answer is simple and it is not mine ... it is from the other players :
    ==the story goes like this==
    Half a server standing in urban area ... one player is starting a conversation:
    player 1 : I have to finish my daily but I can't go to the arena
    player 2: why? You can't get a fight?
    player 1: No man ... Sebastian is there terrorizing us . We were in 6v6 and all 6 of us couldn't move from the starting base ... he don't let anything move out ... him alone is killing us all 6 and he never dies.
    Players 3,4,5,6,7,8 ... :yes man that is why we are all standing here ... and waiting for him to log off.
    So i guess the next objective is no one to even bother entering the game.
    Just like the other egocentric "I am a top player on my server" you are twisting the truth in your behalf ... just to further benefit in PvP using the PvE as excuse.
    The truth is ... PvP is completely broken and it is broken for all classes . Why? Because of the hilarious sets and bonuses and buffs.
    But you are talking about skills not sets, buffs bonuses.
    I agree that SWs should have wider range of items that will boost them in PvE both 2H and 1H ... but so and the other classes should.
    Diversity this game needs ... not one set to rule them all.
    It is easy to whine how much one 2H set is not on par with other 2H set ... but why neglecting the fact that everything with 2H builds is wrong! 2H builds are having more than double damage ... and in same time having same atack speed , crit hit and crit damage as 1H builds. So where is the balance if someone can have same attack speed with 2h ass someone else with 1h? the speed is limited to 4.00 ... but don't even get benefit going above 2.36 breakpoint because you get almost nothing in the overall damage and you lose too much in the other stats. 2H runes are having double of the 1H runes' speed ... so why don't 1Hs have double of the rubies' damage ... instead ... 2h's are getting even more from the rubies just like with the speed runes.
    And so on and so forth ... I can speak for days how much these new items are broken.

    "SW being slowest and weakest class" - that is simply not true ... you should say "provide us better PvE gear so we can be on par with the other classes (with a note that you are talking about 2H items)". Take out the broken ^ unique gear and compare the classes with leg items and you get the SWs reliable and fast again.
    I agree that the Frozen Sphere was better before ... but this skill has a same problem like the skills from the other classes. in example ... EA is not consistent on uneven terrain and it is almost always hitting the ground with no effect or flying in wrong direction. Only the machine gun has no issues ... because it is the only skill that hits in 3D ... it is hitting the targets through walls trough mountains and hills (even if the targets are on different height).


    Exactly ... that is what i am talking about from the start but you are pretending that you haven't read it ... and then presenting it as RA's OP skill ... which is not ... my EA can't "delete" that tank ... we are at same starting point ^ read ^ Broken 2H sets/buffs/bonuses ... but for all classes not only for one class.

    Uhhh ... yes boss ... is that an order?
    i will play with any items I feel like want to play ... not you not BP will give me order what to play with.
    Besides ... i play both with 1H and 2H builds. I would ask you the same ... are you playing with 1H build?

    This entire forum is made to gather feedback ... yet you see what is the situation in game.
    Last but not least
    If this post upsets you ... just look the other way!

    Are you surprised? That's where the money are :D
    No one will care because you can't farm with your toon ... unless you are the one of them $$$ .





    Happy New Years everyone ... take care, and don't take no "garbage" from anyone ... because I certainly won't.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  20. sargon234

    sargon234 Forum Demigod

    I prefer one ring to rule them all, thank you very much
    I will wear it, to govern you all
    I'll give free helicopter rides to opposers


    I do not think bp is aware of the imbalance, i do not think they now what they are doing
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
    -HARRA81-, trakilaki and sebastian_fl like this.
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