Development Team Letter - CLASS BALANCING

Discussion in 'Headquarters Archive' started by DSO Production Team, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. Mal3ficent

    Mal3ficent Board Administrator Team Drakensang Online

    Hello @bLaind ,
    Please contact English Support and explain the issue. You should include character's: name, level, class and server.
    Providing images/videos as evidence would be appreciated.
    Please include a link to this post in the support ticket.

    Cheers.
     
  2. bLaind

    bLaind Forum Baron

    Yeah, I really wish I had done that, but was doing fast DQs for the wisdom... so no proof. :oops:
     
  3. Nostradamus88

    Nostradamus88 Active Author

    Well, one month has passed since the beginning of 2018 and still no pvp changes are seen. Always same problems and always same op class. You devs surely need a reward for all your effort and work. (i thought deutch workers were more efficient XD)
     
  4. Stendarr

    Stendarr Forum Apprentice

    Hello,

    i know this is the most asked question, but any info or date about class balancing? it starts be annoying by 1h dks in pvp, when 3 2h players have no chance kill him, thats really bad :D thx for answer
     
  5. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master

    I also would like to know when are they going to tackle this balance issue.1 month passed, patch 206 has nothing about balance in it from what it seems so its likely that we wont see any changes in february either. What does "early 2018" means to BP?

    Also lets not forget that PvP is dead for many of us for more than 2 years.A fix for this was also promised in the early 2018.

    Hurry up BP !!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  6. Falk101

    Falk101 Junior Expert

    I don't understand why some people speak about DKs. Now a noob ranger can explode any DK with explosion Arrow. When i play 1h with 160k HP and 80% everywhere only 2 Arrows kill me, no time to regen or to do anything. It's like if i was without any defense. I can make video to proove it if it's needed. Now i think Ranger is the strongest class in the game. For me it's ok i don't like PvP but when i see some people cry after DK... Just play DK and you will understand.
     
    «.βεrry.» likes this.
  7. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Would be nice to see the video) i switch to DK myself, after 5 years of a pro mage. I'm certain tanks are the best in all aspects of the game.

    Those who cry are mages, primarily. They have zero measures against 1h tank like yourself.

    And I will let Traki to speak of rangers.
     
  8. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    the thing is that the people who say things about DKS have already played with them and now the infinite potential they have. I myself have played with every singe character and i know its just the easiest with the dk. For instance a mage with 15 k dmg may have a hard time in inf 1 but a tank with 13k will clear it no problem (tested it out ).All the 1 h tanks i see as give me free loot... The dont use ess om bosses and if they are tanky enough to not die they just dont need to respawn with anders.. its just making tha game even more free. Before lv 50 tanks didnt have agro and the game was still working....what changed....I remember at the start of lv 50 when they removed the update which allowed you to heal from dragon hide and dragon roar(lv 15 skill or smt) and move it to the agro skill. For compensation you got dmg increase on jump and armor increases which is bonkers, since you lost nothing but instead got a lot but still a lot of tanks i know called itt a nerf... need i say more ?
    P,s orbably you need a skill like destruction which also allows to be moving while casting it to understand the power of dk. its not like you dont have fearless already
     
  9. Falk101

    Falk101 Junior Expert

    Good luck, after some Explosion Arrow you will change again for ranger :D
     
  10. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master


    Well lets face it..the DSO nowadays is trully messed up.How can the same class be the best with 2 hand and best with 1hand, how can the same class be the best at PvE and PvP?

    Is this fair?

    No wonder people complain.They were deceived from the beginning.Most of them picked mages because ...." holly crap this class will give u the best dmg of them all" message that was advertised with the class.Ingame is like " holly crap you were duped, this class has the worst defense and dmg".

    How can BP explain warriors with 34k+ dmg and 100k hp and mages with half that hp, and 3-4k dmg minus?

    Id say lets all create a thread/poll where we all vote if we really need 4 classes or if warrior is enough, because nowadays it looks like everything in DSO is about warriors.Lets have RANGER, DWARF and MAGE class deleted from game and we all play warrior.There are absolutely no reasons why to play other classes.All thats needed is warrior...PvP the best..PvE the best...groups farm, the best or always needed to tank bosses...

    Then we can rename this game from DWARFensang to DrakenTANK. x)
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  11. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    Dunno, I've seen ppl complaining about dwarfs in PvP which is beyond ridiculous... the best will come when and if the devs will introduce some sort of decent PvP system (which obviusly would include resilience and no PvE equipment) and the flow of wines will be a tsunami.
     
    magicus likes this.
  12. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    As a SW or RA, SMs may be easy kills. For a 2H DK, there is nothing more frustrating than a high run speed/high damage mech that just drops a ton of turrets and then avoids all attacks with ease.

    There are actually seven classes in PvP:
    1. 1H RA w/Shield: Rare, but very difficult to kill. Can have impressive DPS while also having impressive defenses. Can kill everything except 1H DKs with moderate ease.
    2. 2H RA: Common, Has insane DPS and uses Herald's Bow for EA spam. Can kill any class, even 1H DKs, if they get a couple lucky hits. However, they are glass cannons and die easily.
    3. 1H SM: Rare, but highly annoying. The have OK damage, but insane defenses, run speed, and regen. Evenly matched with most ranged classes, doesn't have enough DPS to kill a 1H DK, but absolutely obliterates 2H DKs.
    4. 2H SM: See above. High DPS with OK defenses. Rather easily killed by ranged classes due to the predictable range/direction of turrets, but are the bane of a 2H DK. Most 1H DKs can take them because the turrets' damage is low enough per hit that Lifekeeper prevents serious harm.
    5. 2H SW: Insanely high damage with fireball spam, but awful defenses. It is a game of "Who hits first?" against everything except a 1H DK. 1H DKs will just run and heal.
    6. 1H DK: Most tanky builds rely on high HP regen to force the fight into exhaustion to defeat their opponents. Some have decent damage and run speed to chase down and kill opponents, but this is not as easy to achieve as the run 'n regen type. A well build one is a terror in PvP.
    7. 2H DK: High damage with decent defenses. The problem is they have to catch their prey. Against a sufficiently fast enough opponent, they don't stand a chance, and are also often killed before they can get close to their target. Even 1H DKs have an advantage because 2H DKs rely on damage to heal and blocked hits do crappy damage.

    You'll notice that I didn't include a 1H SW, because that is pretty much the only build that is completely unviable in PvP at the moment, both ball and book. Ball because SWs have garbage defenses to begin with, so it doesn't make a significant difference, and book because 80% is rather easily reached in a 2H build, but with much higher damage.
    Quiver RAs are also nearly nonexistent because with modern T6 gear, it is relatively easy to achieve an 80% crit rate against another player, even with a shield. They also offer no advantage over a 2H RA build since 80% is standard these days at endgame.



    While you are correct about HP, you are wrong about the damage. Any damage that a DK can reach, a SW, RA, or SM can reach too since the sets all have the same bonuses DPS related across the classes and the 2H Staffs/2H Guns/2H Bows have the same max damage as a DK's 2H Hammer. From there, a SW/RA/SM will have higher damage output due to skill damage values, but that is an argument for another post (and indeed is an argument that has been made again and again and again). But back to the HP; that is another argument that has been made again and again and again. A DK, even a DPS DK, has to take a hit. They need to be right next to their target and will get hit, and often. A SW doesn't. A SW played right doesn't need as much HP as a DK who is on the front line. After all, why do you think that all the best SWs are glass cannons? They can solo in Infernal and the basis of their strategy is "Kill them before they kill me," where as a DPS DK is "Regen enough to compensate for the tons of damage I'm taking."

    It is a staple of all Hack and Slash games that a melee character will have better defenses than a ranged character. It makes sense, and there is no reason for DSO to try to change this. The HP argument is old and honestly a really weak argument at that.
     
    Demon likes this.
  13. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    This is so weird, as on the other forums DK claim 1h mage setup shifted towards HP is the only go against similar DK. I got tired of that nonsense so I stopped the conversation)

    But, tbh, 1h setup is viable against everything but 1h DK. I had quite a lot of good games in 5v5 scoring all flags yet killing a hundred of glass cannons and alike. Without tanks in a match, ofc). 90% running speed combined with 90k hp, Sigi spam, decent block can do magic))
     
  14. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master


    And why is this normal to you? Can a SW,RA or SM for instance reach the same amount of defense /hp that a warrior can? Why should a warrior reach the same dmg yet none of the other classes could reach 200-300k hp or 30-40k armor?

    This is the problem here.The main caracteristic of a DK is and should be his defense and crazy hp and hp regeneration.He should not even be able to reach the same dmg as a mage whos main caracteristic is dmg.The dmg on weapons, the values of the rubies should be different for a warrior, the crit dmg rate shouldnt be 400% .They have different values on defense gems, the SWs shouldve had different values on offensive gems.

    You dont find it wrong that a tank class can kill inf3 bosses in 30 sec and a dmg dealer class cant even do it in 2 minutes ? Today, everything is about DKs..they are the best at everything and you cant have a balance until u fix this.

    Very true, but also a meelee character will have a big minus when it comes to dmg and will not have as much dmg as ranged ones have.In most if not all of these games you can go for one of them, dmg or defense and not both like warriors can do in DSO.

    Have you seen Prototypes 2hand stats? Best mages on heredur have like 32k dmg yet he has like 35k...i wont even talk about the other stats of them mages ... they are much much lower than a warrior.Do you find this normal and fair?

    Also:
    If rangers who spam EA at 500% skill dmg need "FEW lucky hits" to kill 1hand DKS, then how many tens of fireballs with 126% skill dmg does a SW needs to kill a 1hand warrior?Then answer would be ...it doesnt matter how many fireballs a SW will use because he is dead by the time DKs hp gets to 75% ^^.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  15. Demon

    Demon Forum Mogul

    I dont think that me as a Dk i will have enough room to store another set of gear and also craft for another set.


    First of all you have a problem with your class and the fact that he dont have that big strike as RA to kill 1H tank in 3 hits.
    Second you have right we should have +50% life/armor/resit and -20% dmg with not a single enchantment on life armor or resist on intems.Why not -50% >? because we need to compensate that range damage that you have.
    Third as a player said there are viable builds and non viable ones, why you struggle to make a non viable build? just hoping to runin a class? in my opinion when i see 1h mage in pvp i have a bad opinion about him.I would also like a 1h build to farm with my DK , just like the old days.

    Dk are weack in front of a 2h ranger or a CHC build dwarf , i would suggest you to find ways and ask BP to improve your mana spender skills or to find a efficient ones to deal with DK not to nerf DK because of your problem.
     
  16. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    .

    That last sentence just triggered the hell out of me. If one class is better than all the other then the word NERF is right and and at its place. If you play LoL for example who do you think is nerfed ?? mostly the tanks why ? well let me say if you can 1tank 2 outdamage 3outrun 4outsustain everything what is the point of playing everything else. I like how the excuse but you are ranged class sounds. its lame can you stop crying about it ? . Its not like you dont have Dragon Hide to compensate on it...

    Your sugesstion about mana spend is bad.We dont have a problem with the mana but the fact we have skills which hit fast but scale with low dmg. EA=our destruction but we have a CD and a 4 Sec Cast time while casting it im open to being oneshoted with Fearless.....Ive played this scebario Mage vs Tanks since lv 40 and on lv 40 and 45 was ok but lv 50 and till now its not okay..About dwarfs its a different matter they are annoying for everybody so ill elave that aside...Correct me if im wrong but what would you prefer Mage with 20k dmg and 80 percent crit dmg, or tank with 18k ? Ofc the tank he has more AOE dmg than the mage and his spell generally deal more dmg.If you compare Frozen sphere s dmg 260 percent and smash 200, tanks s skill is just out best of both worlds you can cast it 5 times 5x200= 1000 percent of your dmg while the sphere 2x260=520 ? WOW SO WORTH TO BE RANGED .,, not to mention the skill has a fixed distance so you need to postion in a specifing angle for it to work whchi wont happen most of the time..

    Last argument.When you go 2h full dmg you should be punished a little by being able to die quicker right ? well that aint the case for the skill which HEALS FOR AOE......i mean sustain and dmg both in 1h and 2 h ?? might aswell hand a sign called FREE 4 TANKS. And for those who say just play tank ill say no i dont want to i like the skill cap of the mage but its unrewarding and i dont think i should be punished for not choosing the "manliest" class of them all...

    Baragain about your last statement its not true for instance if a mage goes with build with q8 set Dragan and medusa set He is just weaker since he is not using karrabossa set ( if you use q4 because of the belt restriction). And so Im punnished with low dmg because i want to enjoy sigris set ? So dwarfs play straight out dmg and are rewarded with easier build while im being punished ?

    There was a mage who got 80 k hp but you know what his dmg is ? 25k.... what to say 9k less than a tank with the same or more hp.

    P,S this may look like a flat out rant but the points some ppl make lately are just brainless.....OR you are all overthinking the base stats and gems stats for all classes since you think its equal at the end but it aint.
     
  17. Slabutul9

    Slabutul9 Someday Author

    Well you are wrong. At the moment the base of the items is the same for every char...except the base life. warriors can have 100k HP with 2h and 34k dmg .. so i guess you kinda took this idea from my stats video ( I am prototype ) . These are my stats at the moment : https://imgur.com/a/sTTr4 ... Except the gloves which are missing 6% speed.. all my items are full gold with max lines, max base stats on items, getting close to full royal. But as i said.. with all chars you can get almost the same stats, you can get the same offensive with same armor same resistance on a dwarf/mage/ranger who have eveyrhitn max as well.. with 80k hp or so. What about this, https://imgur.com/a/h9F0a ? The only diff is that i have points on life, and he have them on speed, switching them he get almost the same deffense as me. About warrior beeing the best everywhere is again BS. why? About solo playing it's kinda normal that the char that doesnt have to move is faster, but it doesnt meant that it deals more dmg than other chars... and it still depends what boss you kill. Bosses are made in a way that you can avoit the hits pretty easy with little bit of travel speed and skill. For example for rangers q1 is the easiest one probably, for war q2 is the easiest, for speed/dmg dwarf q1 q3 q5 q7 q9 are easy as hell as well and a good players can beat my best time...but thinking at all bosses in general dk is fastest cause he doesnt have to move so he can hit 100% of the time (for that you need every shingle thing maxed kinda). About group playing, i really tested this yesterday . On shield just using agro i let a mage and a dwarf with same stats as me killing heredur, the one of them just came in map (so the boso gets the same hp) and watched while i killed. My time was like 55 sec, mage time was arround mage time was 52 sec, crit dwarf had lowe dmg, lower crit and lower crit dmg than me and the mage.. but a bit more speed, she got 43 sec. with speed/dmg she needed 32 sec. So this kinda prove that in group warrior is not the best dmg dealer and is the opposite :) I only didnt tested with a ranger yet but i am pretty sure with the same stats as me we will get like 40 sec or something.

    About pvp ..DK is not that op as everyone says either, with 40k armor 2x criit by an 1h ranger and you are dead -) with the same deff as you... It all about skills how you know to use your char. The only char that need a buff in pvp is the mage.
    I know many of players complain about full defense DK's in pvp, but i wanna ask something them. How a full defense DK would have enough dmg to kill someone on a balanced build ? This problem can easly be fixed by locking the inventory in pvp, that way the full defense dk wont be able to kill someone anway, once debuff stats you lose a procentage of life everysec, so bassically everyone will die in the same time, without removing items to keep your life full..all you have to do to kill a dk in debuff is hitting him +1 time than he hit you...which should always happen since dk is the only low range class.
     
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  18. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    I can agree on 99% of what you said.
    The missing 1% it's due to a couple aspects you haven't talked about:
    - when we talk about farming anyone keeps talking about boss fight/farming as it was the only important aspect of the game which isn't true (and if anyone had any experience of H&S they would know what "speed runs" mean and their importance); when you need to ~50" to kill a boss, what really makes the difference is how fast you can clear a map (in this case a class that has higher map clearing speed can really save a lot more than 13" to complete a run) so, dwarfs that are probably the best boss killers, when looked in a more complete way, aren't as "OP" as they seem, simply because the advantage they got against some bosses get diluited a lot (and in most cases negated at all, infact, I was comparing my Leader points per second with other friends with similar stats and it came out that RA totally annhilated my scores)
    - PvP whise DK do have many advantages over, at least, 2 out of 4 classes and I'm not talking about stats (which, as you clearly proved and you are perfectly correct, differs only on HP) but about the skill tools (chain CC, better resource regen and high nuke dmg) it's definatly something OP in this 1 shot scenario. That said, I wouldn't wine about DK as they were the worst problem of PvP but more in general about PvP in DSO which is far from "decent" for a lot of more important aspects (1-shot, chain CC, opponents visible in the minimap, Attacks out of the screen, unfair matchmaking, PvE gear AKA P2W gear in PvP and so on).
     
    semen470 likes this.
  19. MikeyMetro

    MikeyMetro Forum Overlooker

    Really? No advantage at all? OK, who am I to argue :cool: (hint: quivers are not all about just the 80% CHR ;))

    Still I will acknowledge that 1h/quiver RAs are a vanishing breed. But that is mostly because players do not understand this build. The rest is due to the devs thinking that endangered species means something that needs to be wiped out :rolleyes:

    Luck be with ye,
    Mikey,
    Tegan
     
  20. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master

    If you were to fight that mage in arena and u had 1 hand on, he would die like paper, despite having those stats.Also on PvE that same mage will do infernal 1 as fast as you do infernal 3 bosses.If it were to compare a mage with a warrior, you dont have much to compare.Sure, the mages are fast as killing normal npcs but when it comes to boss runs the difference will be insane.


    Boss fights are the most important part of the game, thats where you get your cores from, thats where you get the uniques and so on.Farming full map is only good for LB and when you do MF glasses.Thats why its important to kill the bosses fast and not to spend minutes per kill, and also this is why its important that all the classes should be on par here and not have such a big gap between them. Look at Dragan event for instance, and compare a top mage run at dragan with a top warrior run there, then draw a line and see the time each spent per kill, resources(hp pots, ander for deaths and essences).Then u will see why the mages complain and how much it su cks for a mage to do boss runs in DSO nowadays.

    What about a mage vs a warrior? or a SM vs a warrior? The only class that can put some fight vs a good 1hand warrior is a good ranger...and the ranger will need a lot of luck to get the warrior killed.Isnt this what OP means? When 3 classes are useless compared to one? Maybe you dont know what OP means.

    The warrior only sucks at clearing the normal mobs as fast as mages.I agree with that.At PvP i doubt anyone can say that warriors are not the best, and at PvE even if the boss is static or moves, the warrior will still kill it the fastest and without much trouble.Rangers,SWs and SMs have some issues when fighting bosses that move like heredur for instance, warrior doesnt have any problem with that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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