Feedback Discussion about account trading/sharing

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by _Baragain_, Mar 6, 2018.

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  1. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    This isn't a court of law, excessive business travel isn't a protected class, and private actors can certainly look askance at this kind of fact pattern and bar someone from their business relations (I.e., the game).

    And guilt is the wrong word here - a game ban is not a criminal punishment.

    And one can certainly try to argue their situation with support.
  2. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Yeah, you right, to an extend. I was just bringing up the connection. What they can do, mark an account as suspicious, like Google does or banks do with transactions, asking you to prove you are actually that guy.

    Now, if they were to introduce travel limitations after they had userbase spend money, that would and will create legal issues. Such a rule should have existed from the beginning. Advertising game as browser game wouldnt help them either.

    Travelers are not protected class, but each individual is protected by common/civil law anyway. As soon as they took 1 USD from me, they entered US Law territory no matter what they claim in ToC. If they didn't clearly nail the ToC and limitations in the first place, they cannot impose sanctions on newly introduced rules.

    Anyway. There is nothing to discuss here. BP will not be introducing any sort of location binding. And since it goes beyond the release feedback, let's stop here. If they ask me to prove I'm who I am and it is the same guy who started account in 2012 or whatever, I'm fine with that. There is a concept of public interest, so if binding to a phone # or whatever is the only way to kill all the traders and multiusers, let it be.

    It was a good release, in right direction, and I hope Dev team will keep cheaters as #1 priority moving forward. Well done.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  3. Paavelsons

    Paavelsons Regular

    [content removed - do not engage in conversation with moderators]

    On gambling side jesters. some who get banned probably start looking into it. by law. seeing big pot of anders on yesters ofc it attracts players there to buy ander. money/ gambling. no win
    Last edited by moderator: Mar 8, 2018
  4. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I play a mobile game like that. When the developers were forced to reveal the probabilities, it turns out that it was very close to what the community had calculated as the odds.
    They already had a very short stun time that was only good for temporarily interrupting their skills. Armor breaks from Headbut, Explosive Arrow, and C-14 Rocket were also shortened. If they also removed the ability to armor break, the biggest effect would be on SWs who were able to have their full armor break because their's functions differently from the other classes.
  5. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Now you start EDIT :)
    1. Small correction - Russia and North Korea are names and are always starting with capital letter.
    2. Larger correction - you are heading into dangerous area and judging by : personal belief, incorrect information, hatred or ignorance.
    Now ... you are all blabbing over Demon's comment ... and it is more than obvious he has little knowledge in networking. BUT you don't have to get into IT area for the answer ... it is very simple. What is he asking for is illegal and punishable by law in most of the world's countries except in USA and their corporate law ... since we all know the companies are ruling the country there not the people ... thus they are making laws that suits them best. In simple words that is a information protected with law and the basic human rights ... NoOne can collect your private data without your permission and furthermore without special warrant given by a judge.
    If you read the T&C you can read that

    12.2 The legal place of jurisdiction is Hamburg, Germany.
    12.3 The law of the Federal Republic of Germany shall apply (i) to these Terms and Conditions, including any future amendments

    That means all those "proposed actions" are illegal.
    Now ... you have mentioned one of the corporate powers ... who BTW is obstructing and breaking the basic human rights - Google - who has been fined and sanctioned in several different occasions by the EU ... and the other corporate bully -Facebook- who like you say is asking people to prove "prove you are that guy" by submitting in example picture of your face. :) Tadaaa ... they are illegal. Facebook personal data use and privacy settings were ruled illegal by the German court.

    so here we come to the main point ...

    It is damn hard and not productive and proves nothing.
    And the main issue here is the law ... forget about making changes and finding ways something to work out ... when you are being prevented by the law and the basic human rights.
    Last edited by moderator: Mar 8, 2018
  6. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    A lot of bad arguments there. Esspecially the second and third paragraphs. They absolutely can make reasonable changes to the ToC and the argument that:

    "As soon as they took 1 USD from me, they entered US Law territory no matter what they claim in ToC. If they didn't clearly nail the ToC and limitations in the first place, they cannot impose sanctions on newly introduced rules."
    is garbage. Also, as traki notes, there is a choice of law provision in the ToC and nothing you've pointed out overcomes that.
  7. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    You are wrong, and Traki is wrong) but we need to move this debate elsewhere) (before some respected fellas lose their composure :))

    12.2 and 12.3 have no legal consequences. If you, as a provider, offer paid service in State of California, you are obliged to follow consumer law in the very State of California and every consumer can challenge you as a provider in the Californian court. For example, some states are very strict about auto renewal policy, in other words, provider must get a consent from the user to renew. Some states don't have that. And the provider must comply with all the local laws. It is a mess for a company, but it is what it is. Wanna take money from american, follow the rules. You can also Google blizzard, and lawsuits against them in different states despite their ToC.

    Just in case, by no means I disrespect BP/DSO toc.

    As for your argument, they absolutely can make 'reasonable' changes. Changing ToC the way it denies a service to a category of users who paid for it could not be considered reasonable.

    But again, BP is not doing that, and will not be doing that. Nothing to discuss.

    Come on, Traki, you just corrected me on the same matter, belief etc))
    We, the people, disagree with you)

    Whoever created the thread, thank you @Mal3ficent oops, thank you @Erebus
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  8. Erebus

    Erebus User

    Hello heroes, I moved all your posts regarding account sharing, trading, legal implications, etc., to this new thread in an appropriate subforum.

    This is so that you can continue discussing, and passing on your feedback on the matter, because this is also an important issue for us, and one on which we've been pushing in any way or form we can, and, as such, I would've hated to just kill the discussion with a warning 'cause it was not the appropriate thread to discuss it; but please, bear in mind that you're more than welcome to open your own threads in the appropriate sections in the future, and politely debate about these kind of issues.

    Stay civil, and feel free to go on, best regards. ;)
  9. iNeXoRaBlE

    iNeXoRaBlE Forum Great Master

    You can choose not to buy anders and farm them instead, generally i think these laws are stupid. Its like saying "lets make the games illegal to stop gunfights".
    That gamble thing sounds just as stupid.
    Just to say, i am against account selling, but its a complicated thing to track due to many factors.
  10. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    We are not in disagreement. But it is what it is. They are not going to prohibit anything, but will let them follow gambling laws.
  11. Shansurri

    Shansurri Active Author

    I'm not computer literate enough to know what can or can't be tracked in-game.

    I do have a bit of skill in research, however. Assuming that intent to sell is the same as selling an account (and that's debatable, but I'm sure the lawyers have that answer), then it's a piece of cake to hunt down the biggest offenders of account selling and get them banned. The question is whether DSO wants to sacrifice the money they make off the creation and growth of those toons. If they do (and honest players would probably appreciate that), then catching enough of the serial sellers to curb the habit is not going to be that hard to do.

    And... that's probably all I'll say about that. I'm too new to make those kinds of enemies.
  12. Dragonnns

    Dragonnns Forum Veteran

    Laws as they apply to the Internet are not yet fully established worldwide. I could argue that you may live in California but you purchased something from Germany. You used US dollars when you applied your credit card to the sale but the bank passed back euros to the Germany-based company.

    I also think that since you agreed to play the game, and abide by the Terms of Service along with the Legal Information statement, that you agree that your money was purchasing a Germany-based item and not a California-based one. I know that my bank kept locking my credit card since it KNEW I was in the US but was purchasing something from Germany for the longest time.

    As for the original discussion on account trading/sharing, I find trading easier to identify than sharing. There are people I interact with regularly who share their account with others. When interacting with them, I never really know who I am typing to until they say something (or ignore me).

    Those who trade accounts are much easier to identify. I find that often, they change their name and act very differently. Sometimes they try to pretend they are the original account holder which is just plain funny. How to find them though? That is harder. Currently I think that identifying them socially is the only option. But, hey, maybe someone has a great idea for it.

    I don't think geo-location is the answer. Not only do people move around a lot but even IP address for things like email (look at Outlook365) change drastically and regularly.
  13. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    No, laws are pretty established in that regard in many states already. And they couldn't say I bought smth in Germany, because they sold it to me in US, using US money, through US company (visa). And it is no secret there are hundreds of lawsuits across the globe against American companies in Europe or vice versa. EU wants Apple/Google to comply with EU laws. Same about US.
  14. I don't think you are really gambling in DSO. Yeah you are hoping to win a particular item perhaps, but you always get something in return for your exchange so.. As for the game asking us to buy ander, that is how the game stays alive so I have no problem contributing some of my money from time to time to help out. You always get something for what you give is my point, so that is not necessarily a gamble in my opinion.
  15. Demon

    Demon Forum Mogul

    They need to bind the account to a person no matter where it is in the world.(and this only if that player want to bind the account).

    How you bind the account, you need to make a 0$ payment with your card and send your id and a recent bill payed in your country and also 3 countries that you probably are to visit next year or so. (that ask from you now if you want to exchange payment system from a country to another)

    Now how you can BP make us bind the account?
    - first of all when we bind the account we became transparent players they will know all data from me so they can give me some discounts for premium time or deluxe as a trusted member and also i have priority at support when i need to solve a problem.
    - if they make enough payments they send twice a year costumes or something like they did years ago if you was member of TGC something special like that football costume (for fair player)
    -they give them a full character on test server for testing purpose (and here i make an observation, they should delete test server every half year and keep only admin accounts or special accounts designed for testing like trakilaki's one or this new gifts accounts that they give to players that bind accounts)
    - more protection phone related
    - locked payment for certain country (those 3 that you select when you bind the account) as long as you pay with the same card
    - owner that bind the account can recover the account using his phone id and a recent bill when ever he need.

    Now what will happen when someone that bind the account will sell the account.

    First he will change the ip because most likely it will be from another country state , city and so on. Second he will change the mail or maybe he will sell the account with mail and third, he will change the payment source because they will pay from another country with another card or method.

    Now that can happen to you but if they will tell you that all your binding is compromised and you will not longer benefit from that , you can send them what they ask to regain that privilege. And again you should do a payment with a card that contain your name in about one week or a month.
    If you cant provide this, or you make a payment with under another name your account payment system will be exchanged to a payment method with no offers no reduced prices and your all benefits will be suspended until support will decide that is you and they will lift this restrictions or if they cant prove that is the one that bind account he will be banned.
    There can be some tricks here too , before they sell the account they can buy one year premium and some andermant and also seller can pay with his card for buyer when he need if they have an agreement.

    All this changes cant make trading selling impossible but they will shrink the market since all buyers will need to pay much more for accounts if they what them loaded with premium and andermand, they willl pay much more for in game items or currency and also they need to trust seller with their accounts since he can recover the account very fast and easy.
  16. iNeXoRaBlE

    iNeXoRaBlE Forum Great Master

    I would never give my personal info to BP and i would never like to give my Credit card, every time i have bought something i used Paysafe, some people dont use their cards at 3rd party companies, personally i would never trust BP with my card.

    You idea sounds good but it doesn't work. I don't care if someone sells account (if its his own and not hacked), i care if someone cheats, once BP settles with the bots they can gladly search that aspect as well.

    I don't want the game become more complicated than it is, a game is supposed to be FUN, not an interogation simulator.
    MikeyMetro likes this.
  17. Demon

    Demon Forum Mogul

    No problem then you will not benefit from a special player position, there is no problem is all optional.I have no problem if they know my name, privacy on internet is just a mith, ask Snowden.
    Is not complicated and is not just fun as yo can see we are on a forum and we debate all things that we dont enjoy in this game and we ask for changes.
    Maybe my idea will not work but is an idea and maybe will click in someone brain a better idea or maybe some things i have said there can be used.Maybe i look at the big picture from a different angle maybe my approach is not the best one but it can be a stone on foundation and other players from this thread can put more anyway the final solutions will be decided by BP.

    This is a brainstorming thread and i would like to see different opinion on this maybe we can find a nice solution for this.

    Yes they loose money here because an old account with sapphires and runes cost about 5-10% of the value that player has invest without taking in consideration the time spend in game.If they can make buyers insecure about this type of trades/ sell they can grow the % of players that will grow a toon from scratch.
    Now is simple for them , they buy a medium account with 50$ they buy bot and premium and search for exploits like pinata and daily.After few months of boting and exploit they will have almost high end account that should require 5k-10k euros to be made but they have pay only ~100$ and this is where BP loose money.
    Also if they are banned they loose only ~100$ and what they pay on electricity bill so is wort if they can enjoy an op character for about 1-2 years because i see that BP bring ban waves after more than 2 years.
    This should be stoped in my opinion.
    They can make an exception for you i dont think there are many players like you.
    About that "game gambling is now considered gambling" now that need a European law for this but i also think that can be a reason for BP to ask some profs that player have above 18 years old.(personally i dont agree that this gambling exist in dso)
    Good point here, trade can be eliminated very simple if you have common stash between characters, it will be much easy to move gems from one character to another than making trade but they will loose some money here.I have just one character on my account i dont have time to play on more than one character but if they can let us move the gems and runes on another character i think i will grow a SW, i like that class :)
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
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