Dks and their woes in 2019 and a set that will fix it for them

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by Phyrix, Sep 12, 2019.

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  1. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    very true and I have been itching to draw a performance comparison table xD
    let me do that and see
    be aware this brings ranger and sw closer to mec damage but mec damage stays the same on average, but their playstyle will change as they become a lot more turret dependant and a lot less hs dependant
    Okay regarding that chart base % per second is as follows:


    It gets a little complicated with the rage set because of 1 tiny detail.
    See the set breaks down the frames of skills just like q7 does with smash only
    So in short I am not sure if rage attack will be doing 6 or 7 attacks per second at 125% base
    I drafted the comparison chart at 6 rage attacks per second
    There is a lot to take into consideration though
    See mages have been pointing out how we get regen but as you know that fails often
    And we have to duck and dive a lot
    btw this thing would also make mws a 290% base skill if you did need to regen
    Anyways what I did is quite simple
    since youre hitting 6 rage attacks per second at 125% base youre doing 750% base when working on cooldown
    one also has to take the 20% damage into consideration and the fact that you can wear dragan gloves
    now taking runes into consideration it would take about 7-8 seconds to attain banner and dragon hide again
    that even excludes a mec
    So the damage is much more constant and we get to survive at bosses <- for a change
    another thing is even rageful swing
    you will be doing 6 a second of those for map clearing at 125% base ofc
    you need to take down an enemy you dont need gb you have 5 smashes a second at your disposal dealing 290% base whenever and however as long as your rage is full
    granted you keep your buff going
    But this changes skills so much for classes it opens up so many options
    yes yes mages will be able to do fs at 475% base and 5 of them per second
    but rangers will be able to push 6 hunting arrows per second at 75% base
    mages again even something like magic missile mages will be pushing 6 magic missiles per second at 141% base
    Lol it opens up death sweep and deadly blow for rangers too
    mecs even if the attack speed of their turrets is not affected their base would be increased by 25%
    The set makes every class behave more like the class they are
    dks will do more constant damage yes but they will have more regen more often
    it gives mages exactly what they want
    fb a 15 frame skill combined with herald cloak doing 252% base at 5 of them per second
    lightning strike will hit at 312.5% base and 5 of them per second = 1562.5% base per second <- for the strike only excludes the lightning explosion
    rangers become ninjas :D
    mecs focus on their turrets more and less on heavyshot
    so in short the set amplifies you as a class
    now the nice thing is skill dependent items can be build around it
    example herald cloak for mages rangers and mecs but mages get the fb damage they want and need.
    and so the list goes on xD
    And the one and most important thing about this set:
    It will make you want to play and when you play it will be fun and you will want to keep your buff going.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  2. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Exceptional Talent

    I appreciate your work, but I think the situation, with these sets, will be this:

    Ranger: Q7 will still be the best option. Reason: cost concentration removal.
    SM: Q7 + Q8 and gg.
    SW: strong option.
    DK: slightly better than Q7.

    This set will not change SM and Ranger, it will enhance more SW than DK.
    You're not solving DK problems, you're slightly improving DK and improving SW a lot.

    This could make classes even less balanced.


    To improve the game, this should be done:

    - balance the sets. Each set must give a boost, but small. Don't change class mechanics.
    - balance character skills. Adapt to the game change.

    The result?

    - Better equipment options.
    - Better pvp (balanced skills)
    - Better pve (balanced skills)
    - 1H is an option.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
    1vanka likes this.
  3. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    actually its just a different method for rangers
    but if they make a conc build they can do more dmg than with q7 with this set
    mecs can be debatable
    bear in mind this set increases the base damage of skills
    example dk smash damage will be 290%
    so EA will be much stronger than on q7 too
    but not only EA
    db and ds too and all skills will have inherited frame breaks and inherited higher base damage
    its a very dangerous set
    example dks getting banner and dragon hide every 8 seconds after depletion
    which is why they wont implement it in the game anyways
    regarding 1h
    the sewers set shows some promise
    example combined with cube set
    Just checked
    explosive arrow will do 150% base to non marked enemies
    300% base to marked explosion stays 250% plus the shred so EA will come in at 550% base for rangers
    but it doesnt stop there
    db for example will deal 100% base for rangers but 6 times per second as a 11 frame skill on 3.14 attack speed
    anyways xD
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  4. gbit

    gbit Forum General

    Hello Phyrix, I want to tell you about frames and attack speed for the frenzied rage set.


    I am not an expert on the subject, but I have read some things on the internet and I have carefully read Wigger's post on the breakpoint table (which we all use).
    When you started talking about skill in terms of frames, I was very confused, I couldn't understand what you meant, but now I think I have clearer ideas ...
    I can tell you that writing this:

    "So in the case of smash it becomes a 15 frame skill
    Rage attack becomes a 9 frame skill

    It doesn't make much sense, because a skill has an animation of a certain number of frames and cannot become an animation with another number of frames.
    Let me explain: smash is a 20 frames based skill, ie an animation (1 hit) of the smash has 20 frames per second (1 frame = 1/20 of a second) and I don't think it can become a 15 frames based skill (1/15 of second) thanks to a bonus set.
    Note also that a 20 frames skill is faster than a 15 frames skill, in fact smash has a maximum breakpoint of 3.6364 while rageful swing has 3.3333 (in 10 sec smash = 36 hits, RS = 33 hits)
    So I couldn't understand why you were writing this about skills.

    What you mean, I think, is that with the bonus the animation is execute, not using 20 frames, but using only 15 of the total 20 initial frames (the frames take the same time to be executed, 1/20 sec) ; so a frame takes the same time to be executed and the skill is faster.
    But, if this is really what you mean, then there is no need to talk about frames; a mechanic of this kind is already implemented in drakensang and is the increase in attack speed.

    The enchantements that increase the attack speed do just that: some frames are removed from the animation so the skill is executed with fewer frames and is faster (it is precisely because an integer number of frames is removed that there are breakpoints for the active speed).

    So if I understood correctly the sense of the bonus that you would like on the set it should be enough to write + 25% vel att, without having to specify that it is valid for the active skills, remembering that there are skills independent from attack speed that are always executed at the same time and are not affected by the increase in speed itself.

    Now I want to remind you that I am not an expert, I have never been interested in this topic and I may have misunderstood both what you would like the bonus to be, and the functioning of the frames in the skills; if so, I would be grateful if someone could clear up any mistakes or misunderstandings.
    When this point is clear I will be able to post the comparison between the builds, which is otherwise ready.
    Please tell me what you think about this, if it makes sense to you and sorry for my english.
  5. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    Let me explain it to you
    the frames of a skill is based on point of execution start to point of execution end
    so a 20 frame skill will have more frames that it has from point of execution to point of execution end.
    let me show you
    frames to the left shows how many frames it takes from point of execution to point of impact


    So a 15 frame skill has only 9 frames at 3.333
    while a 20 frame skill has 11 frames on 3.637
    so in short less frames = faster and more frames = slower
  6. gbit

    gbit Forum General

    sorry but is faster the 20 frame skill than 15 frame skill (infact with the 20skill you can make 3.637 hit per second, with 15 frame skill only 3.333 hit per second).
    the point is that the frames don't have the same duration: a frame of a 20 frame skill is 1/20 sec while a frame of a 15 frame skill is 1/15 sec; so 9 frames of a 15 skill is a time of 0.6 sec while 11 frames of a 20 skill is a time of 0.55 sec and is faster then the other (and you can reach an higher breakpoint).
    this is what I have understood, I don't know if it is in this way...
  7. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    actually a 15 frame skill at 3.333 = 5 hits per second
    and a 20 frame skill at 3.63 = 3.5 hits per second
    As you can see here so youve got it quite wrong
    Cant believe you made me quote rak to show you
    and fs is a 20 frame skill and mm is a 15 frame skill fyi
    gbit likes this.
  8. gbit

    gbit Forum General

    I have no problem admitting that I don't have competence in this topic and therefore I may have misunderstood more than one thing ... more than this
    1) I don't have Q7 and I can't do tests, and even if I could, I wouldn't be able to reach the max breakpoint.
    2) players with more experience than me (and you can see that they have tested) say that they make with smash 17 hit in 3 seconds; and I believe them.
    but now I'm more confused than before and I have more than a few questions ... can someone explain to me where I misunderstood in understanding how frames work in an animation?
    Is the unit of measure for attack speed in the game "hit per second"?
    if a DK make 17 smash in 3 seconds and therefore makes almost 6 hits per second, what's the point of having a max breakpoint at 3.6? what is the meaning I must give to the max breakpoint value then, given that it does not coincide with the actual speed (calculated in hit per second)?
    when I calculate the DPS why I put as attack speed the max breakpoint value if it is a non effective value?
    the only thing I want is to understood well how all this is working, for putting the right values in my sheet for build comparison...
    I apologize if my ignorance on the subject leads me to ask questions that might seem silly, but I really don't understand how everything should work ...

    ahahah!!! :D
  9. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    well on the basis of dso specifically
    lets say you have a 20 frame skill smash in this case
    lets say you have 1.0811 attack speed
    smash consumes 37 frames from execution to impact
    you get higher speed 1.1429 smash will consume 35 frames from execution to impact
    so the lower the amount of frames consumed by a skill the faster the skill goes
    Which brings me back to how awesome my set would be as it would turn smash into a 15 frame skill

    And this is exactly how the q7 bonus works for dks.
    Btw some info regarding q7 - a dk can actually get 19 smashes in 3 seconds on 3.3 attack speed with q7 and it will still only register 17 hits
    That has been tested by a few dks.
    gbit likes this.
  10. gbit

    gbit Forum General

    ok this is clear, I've understood well in this case.
    but someone please explain me this; I've checked in game the attack speed is measured in attack per sec, so in which way 19/3 (6.3333) matches with 3.3? 6.333 are the attack per second tested by the players, 3.3333 are the attack per second displayed from the statistic window in game...why?
  11. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    this is as ive told you before
    smash becomes a 10 frame skill with Q7 <- only during buff ofc
    so that is why it says 50% faster smash speed
    And yes the attack speed needed for 19 smashes is only 3.333
    but bear in mind only 17 of those 19 smashes register as dmg <- the other 2 does not
    Friends of mine has even tested 4.00 during banner and with buffs ofc still only 19 smashes
    And yes the answer is with q4 you get only 3.5 smashes per second
    @DBS-Flamelurker about what you said that its not good for other classes and slightly better for dks etc
    Ive been thinking
    If the unique line for dks on the weapon is 25% skill damage
    the set buff stays ofc
    for rangers and mages it will be 25% resource cost reduction instead of skill dmg as unique line on the weapon
    and for mecs zero cooldown on heavyshot as a unique line on weapon.
    Wouls kinda work xD
    dks for example would get 340% smash damage
    150% rage attack damage
    150% rageful swing dmg etc
    and well you know the rest for other classes xD
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
  12. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Exceptional Talent

    Better, but I think it would be better to improve the current sets :)

    For example Q8:

    - change rage attack with Smash;
    - add: + 30% dmg on Smash;


    - Smash perks change - 2 pts and 3 pts swapped.
    - 6 rage for finishing blow -> 5 rage for critical hit.
    - Smash damage gradient removed.

    - add: multiple shot + 30% and hit enemies will be frozen for 4 (PvP: 1.25) seconds. Enemies covered in "Frost" have reduced movement and attack speed.

    - Total Smash damage with Q7 during buff: 300%;

    - Total Smash damage during buff Q4: 350%;

    - Multiple Shot: Total 87% during buffs; Marked 174%.

    *What I don't like about this change is that all classes will become dependent on Q8. And everyone can freeze enemies... lol

    Another option?

    (without touching Q8) ;)

    Q7 DK:
    DK Q7 buff
    - 30% increased Smash damage during Q7 buff 'as additional 2/2 bonus


    - Smash perks change - 2 pts and 3 pts swapped
    - 6 rage for finishing blow -> 5 rage for critical hit
    - Smash damage gradient removed

    Q7 SW:
    - (2) + 100% fireball damage.

    Q4 DK:
    (2): Smash and Mighty Wild Swing deal 25% increased damage against currently "Bleeding" foes. change: 25% -> 50% dmg.

    Q4 Ranger:
    add: (2) PS and multiple shot deal 50% increased damage against currently "Bleeding" foes.

    - Q7 total dmg during buff: 300%

    - Q4 total dmg during buff: 340%.

    - Ranger total dmg multiple shot: 99%; marked 198%
    *Total PS dmg with buff: 212%; marked 424%.

    - Fireball dmg: 236%.

    Q4 Ranger becomes good. DK gets more damage with Q4 and Q7. Q7 SW is better. :cool:
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
    DreamWill, Phyrix and gfffffgggggfff like this.
  13. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    My Q8 xD
    Critical hits with smash cover your enemies in "Frost" for 4 seconds.
    Critical hits with smash also has a 50% chance to cause a lightning strike to hit enemies for 300% of your base damage. Enemies covered in "Frost" have reduced movement and attack speed.

    Only problem I have with this is that the description for q4 is wrong
    So if that is changed then q4 wont do what it currently does
    ATM Q4 boosts rageful swing and smash <- not mighty wild swing
    keeping it rageful swing would be cool because its my main attack xD
    which brings me back to exactly this: <- and do read the 2/2 bonus xD


    the rest I like xD
  14. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    actually rangers with q4 are good if u make bleed stackable. but currently it has limit of 1 which is waht holds it back
  15. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Exceptional Talent

    I forgot :p, apply this only on Iron Brow, but the second option is better.

    Correct description. Change it this way.

    I think Ranger will prefer my version. This will give Ranger a good second option, and I think it's fun too. Now Q4 is simply too weak.
    There is no problem, Q7 will always be the strongest option for Ranger. But Q4 will make PS and SS strong and with good damage, but you will need to mark and bleed. :)
    Phyrix likes this.
  16. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    And of course they had to make a set for mages
    Who else then but the only biggest population left in the game?


    What on earth would make me think mages?
    well firstly they get more mana and mana regen
    next up they dont need hp
    heck they slow bosses and they have guardian and armor break
    mages only set guaranteed
    its cool though :D
    I have given up on this game
    My heart and soul is not in DSO anymore
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
  17. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Ambassador

    Ok. How are you going to sustain 250% HP reduction?

    Most people have about 100% HP increase, at most. Then, it's 150% reduction. So... -50% HP? Negative HP? Doesn't hold water.
    I'm pretty sure that some changes shall follow.

    Also... a set that randomly kills you? excuse me what the...

    If it doesn't get any changes before it goes live (and that's a big IF)... it will be good for any damage dealer in a group with tank. OP damage buff, HP probably blocked at 1 or something like that (simply one-hit from everything), and random deaths... so requiring teammates to revive you.

    But, anyways, I'm sure they're going to change it.
  18. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    its - 250% max hp not -250% hp
    Either way I've known ever since I knew the old unique values that this would be BiS for mages.
    Thing is this, almost everyone will have to choose between dragan and this set or Q7. <- hard choices for many
  19. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    it 250% hp. You are left with 1 hp. Also mortis can insta kill u on every stack. You almost never have more than2 min lifespan. AAlso being on 1 life means absolutely everything kills u even the weakest poison/fire dmg is killing u

    @ΣMiwel actually its bad again , even in a group. you die so often , that u loose so much time. It look cool to have 300% inc dmg and more but while u are constantly loosing time in reviving a normal build will do the same. its really just for the flex
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
  20. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    Dks is the only melee class in the game
    and there is 3 ranged classes
    so if the game population was good dks should outnumber most other classes by 2:1
    Not all classes together but per class average ratio
    Lets say there was 12.5k players on heredur 5k should have been dks and 7.5k ranged
    This would be a healthy ratio due to the fact that it is the only melee class in the game
    The reason for it is simple, you cannot say people prefer playing ranged by a 3:1 ratio
    However this is not true for dso as most of the melee players left.
    Now, by players like rak they say "it is because tanks were not needed anymore." that is total and utter bulltwang.
    Up until January 2018 dks were thee class.
    fastest map clearing, fastest boss kill time <- dks were strong
    you needed a tank dks were tanks you needed dps dks was a helper.
    Spellweavers was not weak <- they just needed mana
    oh well
    This about sums it up?

    btw this is another one of my insane items xD

    And you know what I'm gonna put this here...
    Yes my posts was deleted
    Yes I repeatedly reiterated that you will destroy dso if you destroy dks.


    Now think about it for a moment, Rak came here from his main hang out, to make a fool of me, and in the end I destroyed his maths <- Serves him and the person that he is right. (I have quite a few other words for that)

    In short you want DSO to flourish, dks has to flourish for that to happen.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019