Announcement Dwarf class & Skill Rebalancing

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by Sunlight, Jul 28, 2017.

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  1. Black-Viper

    Black-Viper Forum Greenhorn

    I understand that many parameters affect the final outcomes when someone compares SM vs other classes and thus any calculation may be theoretical and not widely applicable.

    Nevertheless, in daily practice all team leaders search for one or two SMs for their teams and most players do not stay in teams without SMs. This results from the knowledge that in general SMs can deliver bigger amount of damage compared to SWs or RAs. This is the case for PvE.
    In the case of PvP, SMs may lack the flexibility of SWs or RAs of changing the direction of their fire-shouting but they have the advantage of "fortification like lobster" within the area of their machine guns. One wrong move and a SW or RA is dead.

    So SMs are OP and that is the reason they advance rapidly and vice versa.

    However, I wonder whether the proposed modifications for rebalance of SMs are in the correct direction or will make them totally useless. Actually I have big concerns about this nerfing of all classes one after the other as a method of rebalancining. To my mind, harsh changes produce continuous unbalance among classes. Perhaps I am missing the big picture or I don't have all facts or complex equations but I thing that a very small change followed by a period of adaptation and evaluation is more effective in long term.
  2. -HARRA81-

    -HARRA81- Forum Mogul

    Board Admin wrote it in the official FAQ. This is the part of the text in the post: "You have summoned a minion, e.g. Dwarf Turrets, Mage Guardian, Ranger Wolfes/Wood Spirit...."

    A NORMAL person would consider the official post to be correct rather than foil hat theory of "AoE DoTs" by random forum user.

    Maybe the main problem in the first place was that the turret should be destroyable so that a group of dwarfs can not make a impassable passage of turrets in 5vs5 or 6vs6 and none of your suggested idea ?.... And that kind of feature you can't adjust anything else than by giving the turrets hp. I personally think the turrets should have hp, so there can't be no impenetrable turrets in the 6vs6 where the space is heavily limited in the second part of the map.
    trakilaki likes this.
  3. TwiliShadow

    TwiliShadow Count Count

    You are OUT TO LUNCH.
    Lets turn it around, YOU only get 1 turret, for only 8 seconds, and you have a cooldown of 30 seconds. Then your Turret can be like my Guardian.

    I get my Guardian for less than 30% of the time. It already has health, I know cause I've seen a boss end it prematurely, so NO it doesn't need less health and armor.

    Next, my Guardian has the same attack speed I have, which is 1 attack per second. That's only 8 attacks per Guardian life. Lets make your machine turret be like that. 8 attacks for it's life of 8 seconds, no?

    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  4. anolajen

    anolajen Someday Author

    you are correct in saying automatted turret dps is crazy but those numbers make no sense as they are based on nothing
    - sw doesnt get 80% crit 3,5 modifier by losing 2k dmg and 0,6 speed the difference in gear is much greater ( crit stacking basically eat atleast adorment, rings,neck, helm,gems,runes... also while not being relevant to dps .. you must count with sacrifice of defensive stats too
    - breakpoints further reduce mage dmg not afecting turrets
    - machine gun turret doesnt deal 200% dmg but more

    guardian cant move too does it mean he isnt minion ?
    technically singularity is clearly spell tinkered on minion mechanic too (essence bug)
    however .... singularity oil slick shrapnel shot ... all are just cases where you create somethig that affects all inside it by own existence

    while turret is small mechanic toy that have no effect itself but attacks something doesnt matter if specific target or direction = definition of minion

    in fact devs decided turrets should be killable regardless of how you call them if they decide guardian is tank and should be unkillable it will still be minion
  5. jslaughter

    jslaughter Forum Apprentice

    All this talk about dwarfs and the damage they can do in pvp and so much pleading not to nerf the dwarf in pve simply proves the point that pvp and pve should have seperate rules for all characters. You don't have to nerf pve to balance pvp, just have different rules that apply. I really hope BP gets this.
  6. medusa666999

    medusa666999 Forum Greenhorn

    Any latest updates on test server? whats the current situation? TY
  7. cdeepal

    cdeepal Forum Baron

    First of all, I don't have a favorite class. Unlike most people here who plays one class or a main character of their favorite class, I have characters level 55 from all four classes and I treat them and play them equally. So, I believe I can look at each class with a more fair view than most of you who tries to get advantages to only their class.

    SM unlike SW (your class) do not have many direct attacks. Their main attack are the turrets. So obviously their turrets should be stronger, more frequently available, and non-stop replaceable unlike the Guardian or the Wolves. Otherwise they cannot survive.
    Their direct attack quick shot is only 60% damage and heavy shot is 300% with a cool down. All other classes have 100% base attack and heavy attacks with no cool down.

    It is important for SM class to have machine gun turrets to do the extra damage with the attack speed multiplier.
    By removing the attack speed multiplier from the machine gun turrets, Big Point will break the Dwarf class. It wouldn't be possible for them to even come close to other classes from the DPS standpoint with this nerf.

    Yes, they are currently producing more DPS than all other classes. See my above posts, I have a post with calculations showing how they can produce more damage than any other class.

    However, You need to be fair-minded and understand that this proposed nerf is too much. It is too drastic. It will break the Dwarf class right-away. It will destroy them all and get most of them to quit the game.

    And, don't think BigPoint will stop there. The nerf bat will come to other classes and then all your favorite classes will start crying as well.
    Shabono, trakilaki and Rhysingstar like this.
  8. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Now that is an interesting point. Since it is obvious that DSO is going to nerf the class, that should be considered and also adjusted accordingly. We all know it won't be, they will knee cap the Dwarf just to see how many players they can get to quit.

    Until PVP is separated from PVE it will always be that way.
    Fynkz and trakilaki like this.
  9. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    It Looks like the changes have been reverted at TS :)

    No more HP on turrets (they can't be destroyed).
    The only changes left are those from the previous release (which are present at live servers):

    Skill:Mechanical Turret
    - talent: Steel Core Ammo - Increases Mechanical Turret damage by 10% --- instead of 20%

    Skill: Oil Slick
    - talent: Routine - Reduces Oil Slick's costs by 10 steam. --- instead of 50% steam reduction
    VukChe and motorola11 like this.
  10. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    Untill you look at what happened to Explosive Arrow which was meant to explode at the end of its race, everyone said it was meant to be this way and then they reverted it to the tooltip description.
    Should I quote the post in which the board admin said it was meant to work this way even tho they changed it?
    This is exactly the same thing, I can have a board admin that says whatever the devs want to and the week after devs can change the behaviour to what to tooltip says.

    Looking at the tooltip descriptions, machingun and tesla turrets are AoE DoTs.

    A NORMAL person, when is posting into a "FEEDBACK" topic uses his own brain to guess what would be the coherent behaviour of some skills.
    The LOGIC is simple: how is acting this skill?
    It deals n DMG onto an area with x*y dimensions over z seconds, what this means? That this is an AoE with DMG OVER TIME. Why did they not use the dmg formula from any other AoE with DoT? The most logical explanation is the way the SM regen Steam by dismantling a turret. Infact we have no other skill in the game that can regen resouce on their ending nor a skill that can be prematurly interrupted.
    They used the non crit formula that was used for singularity because we know that, even before the SM class existed, they were able to trigger special effects on "objects" (like singularity) and they kept the dmg formula embedded to those "objects".
    We have proofs that they could make exception to the dmg formula (wanted or not, machingun turrets used a different formula and this was known to the devs from years even tho a lot of ppl don't really know how the formula works) so we have 2 options:
    - devs had no idea of what they were doing (basically they didn't even know that "objects" can't crit nor benefit from attack speed even tho they have been able to use a different formula for MG turrets which makes this theory highly unlikely)
    - devs deliberatly chose different behaviour for different skills (which is perfectly fine untill we keep as it is and we stop thinking that there must be a "defining rule" to follow)

    You are creating the rule that a "summon" must use a specific formula but we have summons that acts like normal skills (bird of pray is definatly a summon but can crit, banner of war is a summon but can crit) and we have things that definatly are not summons (singularity) that use the non crit formula.

    I prefer to think that it isn't the "dmg formula" to define if a skill is a summon or not.

    Any skill is allowed to have his specific dmg formula and this is perfectly fine (I would like to have more clear escriptions of the skills but tooltips usually don't allow this)

    My dear, why have left out from your quote this part of the phrase?
    Because you lack of arguments to counterargue.
    Ops, they already changed it again... but hey, you are supporting my idea.
    Turrets should have HP just because you think it's fair this way and not beacuse they are summons, just as the guardian could be unkillable just beacause devs decide so or because you like it this way.
    The funniest thing is that even you admitted that givin HP to the turrets it's a poor idea which will lead to even more issues than the ones they are givin right now so you had to think about the "number of hits", "special shields", "maximum dmg thresholds", "flying bananas" and I suppose I'm missing something else because I've seen suggested anything in this thread.
    This leads to the next step: There's a reason why MG shouldn't have the attack speed bonus? Definatly none, if it's dealing too much dmg then lower the dmg muiplier or how the ASPD works but there's no reason to remove it at all.

    Players that know the class already said what would be the small adjustments they can implement, the others will keep suggesting flying bananas.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  11. 1333ghost

    1333ghost Forum Greenhorn

    dwarfs yea are over powered i agree to give machines HP but remove speed muiltplier ? as machines can't deal critical hits i think this will be highly unfair for them , and i assume you should reconsider that and think about how dwarfs will suffer in solo farming :)
  12. herosan70

    herosan70 Forum Apprentice

    just remove the dwarfs u don't need to destroy them:cool::cool::cool:
  13. -HARRA81-

    -HARRA81- Forum Mogul

    It's a entertaining story. Sure, Developers can change the skill behaviour like they wan't and feel to fit in the name of balance.
    But currently it's being said: Dwarfs turrets are minions and that's it. You can make all kind of explanation and calculation as you like but it doesn't change the fact.
    So tell me, why you are right and the OFFICIAL FAQ is wrong ?

    Why do you think I am making some rules of "summon" ? I said that they are summons, like it has been said in the OFFICIAL FAQ.
    I never said anything about their behaviour.

    When you said "Infact we have no other skill in the game that can regen resouce on their ending nor a skill that can be prematurly interrupted" As far as I know SM can regenerate steam with quick shot. Or are you referring "in the game in general including all classes ?"
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    Fynkz likes this.
  14. Galvard

    Galvard Forum Mogul

    - Quick shot: 3 steam per hit, 66% dmg
    - Natural regeneration: very slow
    - Magic missile: 5 mana per hit, 100% dmg (+ crit. dmg.)
    - Natural regeneration: very fast
  15. semen470

    semen470 Padavan

    Since 1 year i complained on german forum why BP dont understand the situation and seperate PvE from PvP.
    They could separate it, 2nd step would be the rework of the skilltree and 3rdly and finally the re-balancing of all classes only for PvP.
    But the main Reason for this kinda issue is the lack of knowledge by the Dev Crew.
    The result of that ends up on issues like this nerfing nonsense, which is horrible ime.
    Also the ignorance not to merge the 4 small server to a bigger one is something i will never understand.
    Thing is if the revenues at the end of the month doesnt "fit" then they are going to change something, in the name of the community ofc.

    None of the classes should be nerfed, some adjustments here and there (i.e. reducing or removing the spamming abilities in PvP/Arena) are ok but not these kind of brainless ideas like the current Dwarf nerfs
    which would make the Dwarf completely useless.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  16. -HARRA81-

    -HARRA81- Forum Mogul

    SM: Mechanical Turret dismantle: +20 Steam

    SW: Dismantle minione: +0 Mana
  17. anolajen

    anolajen Someday Author

    you cant compare raw numbers
    1) quick shot has up to 25% attack speed buff leading to increased steam gain
    2) its all about base regen vs gain ... sm regen much less steam ( 2,5/sec ? while sw 12,5/sec ) so sm get from single shot 1,2sec regen equal to 1,2sec .... for sw is 5 mana just 0,4sec = sm get 3xmore resource per shot

    also 1 mana ≠ 1 steam ( 50 steam on auto turret deal 2320% dmg + attack speed bonus vs 40 mana sphere = 350-370% dmg + crit )
    in practice SM have much smaller resource gain balanced by lower consumption per dmg %
    so maybe stop comparing apple and potato ?

    well point of this rebalance is dwarf excessive damage in pve and i cant imagine how would spamming nerf help it
    ... pvp is only small neglected part of game
  18. Sunlight

    Sunlight User

    Hey there heroes,

    Please, this is a discussion/feedback thread regarding dwarf class skill rebalancing and animations timing.
    So, keep your interventions on the topic. Last warning. You have here the opportunity to present your feedback regarding the changes - your opinion is important - so, do not waste your time accusing the others and writting off-topic interventions.

  19. Llogos

    Llogos Junior Expert

    All of you people see off topic posts that never get deleted. In many threats. A mod said in one '' i will ignore the off topic blah blah''. My post was on topic, talking about the dwarf and yet got deleted again! There are many posts here off topic talking about the mage and blah blah. Why do you keep them? I am fed up with the tyranny of the english forum. Just because you people don't like my posts as they go against the agenda.

    PS : Its not an attack to you personally.


    HP on the turrets will destroy the class completely. They shouldn't be classified as minions first place! If you take the source of the damage away from the SM, what do you think it will happen? Do you believe that players will carry on playing a dead class? How they will survive? How they will manage to kill something? As the majority of the players are SM, the game will be more empty than ever before. Get real and don't destroy yet another char. Focus on the spamming of the SW and everything else that makes them OP -to use their language- and stop killing of the other classes.
    Last edited by moderator: Aug 10, 2017
  20. Sunlight

    Sunlight User

    Hey there @Llogos ,

    Your post was partially on topic. And you know that. Your last one is fine. If you have anything against my decision, feel free to contact the support. I kindly ask you to make use of "Edit" button when you want to add something else to your last post.
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