Announcement Dwarf class & Skill Rebalancing

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by Sunlight, Jul 28, 2017.

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  1. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    so we did it. finally. nine sm did it in 6:58 minutes (best time) on heredur lvl 4 boss aka infernal I solo. seven rangers 2:37 minutes (best time). six sws did it in 3:14 (best time). all the same damage. all on blue. five 2h dk...1:19 minutes (best time). i'm sure there are better sm out there, but that's a HUGE time gap. tell me again how sm are OP? we all got about 40k blue ess damage after buff. that's the time gap. these were ALL +20k damage players with solid gear (except me. i'm 19.3k. so i'm the straggler here) with great speed. ALL above 2.20 speed. all crafted the best we can. tell me again...TELL me...how sm just sit and spawn turrets and kill bosses. the times show the proof. so anyone who wants to say "sm are so OP nerf nerf nerf" needs to take a serious step back and realize that MAYBE with a dk...sm can kill in the same times. bosses are walking out of our main skills every 2-3 seconds.

    these are are GREAT crafting and geared players. some more than others, but the average times are pretty close to the best times achieved. getting pretty tired of people saying we're OP.

    i will say, map times were pretty close from start to boss. again...sm's slower as crits REALLY do some fun damage...but they were close. about 1-2 minutes apart from map 1 to boss.

    so tell me again how all your "calculation" say that sm are so sweet. please...please...please... i beg you. here's my actual time sets of all my crafted/setted friends. so yeah. try again. tell me how our "turrets deal damage even though we move" makes a difference? if this wasn't such a "family friendly" site...this would be a much more angry conversation. make a better char.

    rant...not quite over.
     
    Gregminator and Bundin like this.
  2. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    I'm not sure the near exclusive focus on top tier 20K damage players warranted.

    At lower levels of damage, the SM will clearly come out ahead; and turrets means that a turret and run strategy is viable, and this means a SM can get to top tier easier

    Game balance should also look at the more common weaker geared characters.
     
    xXxTroublexXx likes this.
  3. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    You do realize that no one complains about how OP a class is in pve. The whining comes when a player loses in pvp.

    If you lose to dwarf, all of them are OP. Same goes for DK, SW and Ranger.

    On top of that, OP players do not complain at all. They have no reason to complain.

    While it is nice to see the Dev's change their initial thought on killing the SM class, I have no doubt some form of nerf is coming sooner or later. There are still too many complaining about the class as a whole.

    The best solution would be to come up with some changes that would make sense and not destroy what players have worked hard to build.

    It seems that the biggest complaint is turrets. If that has to be tweaked, what positive changes can be done to make up for it? Maybe raise the standard weapon dmg to match the other classes?

    There has to be a way for SM players to come up with possibilities ahead of the dev's so that when the nerf comes, it doesn't kneecap the entire class.

    The important part is to remember that it isn't only the OP players that get nerfed. Every average and below average player gets whacked hard also.

    It is those players that we should be concerned with most.
     
    semen470 likes this.
  4. jslaughter

    jslaughter Forum Apprentice

    There is only one solution and it has been said multiple times on this forum, pve and pvp need seperate rules so those that enjoy playing pve can continue on their happy way and those that are complaining so much about power and pvp would feel satiated because there would be a different set of rules that govern the power a dwarf has in pvp. For that matter all of pvp probably needs rebalancing but none of that should affect pve. I sincerely hope that at some point bigpoint gets this and treats them as 2 seperate things. They must have looked at that at one time somewhat because essence doesnt count in 1v1 pvp so some time ago one step was made in that direction so why can't changes continue in that direction?

    And i think profit wise this would be smarter because you keep both types of paying players happy and wanting to spend money for building their toons in the direction they are most comfortable playing in.

    There are many games out there that have been around a long time that i'm sure learned this lesson over time and based on how they treat both pve and pvp you can see that they are trying to accomodate both types of players so not only can they make money but the players are happy, some players enjoy logging on to fight other players and others prefer questing and growing their toon so doesnt make sense to not accomodate both.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  5. iNeXoRaBlE

    iNeXoRaBlE Forum Great Master

    The hp thing is gone, but i really think that the dev should rebalance somehow the dwarf, i don't care how, pvp only is fine by me, as a 2hand DK they really are op against me, and no i don't whine, thats how it is, you can't get close and the dwarf just chills and adds the Auto attack things, maybe the Turrets could HIT only What the dwarf hits with his main attack. Not just BLIND AUTO attack.
    So many ways to make a good and fair rebalance and they choose the worst.

    P.S
    I will agree with you about the tyranny, i have many of my posts deleted but many offtopic from the "forum elites" stay.
    Don't delete my p.s, i can prove it :)

    About the deletes. We just have to accept it as it is, or just get banned.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  6. xXxTroublexXx

    xXxTroublexXx Forum Apprentice

    I realy don't get this. I play both dwarf and dk and I must say, when you play with 2h dk against dwarf you need to be carefull, but what you are writing seems like a lack of gameplay. If I go 2h dk against a dwarf: first of all: they employ almost always 2 of those mechenical turrets, just let them and stay out of their range, if they don't use the steamgiving turrets they just lost a lot of steam. Secondly, these things "auto-aim" but seriously, if you can't dodge them, you're bad: they shoot in straight lines and when you move they shoot at the place where you were a second ago so they don't hit you. The 'tricky' part is when you want to run out of their range as you cannot run to an endpoint that puts you on the straigth line of fire. This 'tricky' part means that you can never take the shortest way out of their range (because the range of turrets is a circle) but just run a little curved and problem solved. It's possible that you need extra runspeed, but well, you can go up to 25% with wisdom if I don't mistake. Be open to adjust your build.

    Why the hell would you? dk is the melee class, but certainly 2h you ain't gonna use your basic attacks, you use ground breaker with explosion at the end and charge (and jumping skill to finish the game). I don't know if you noticed, but you can use them from a distance, sure it ain't the distance as any other class, but well, you're a dk not those other classes. Then the last skill I use very often: mighty wild swing. If you use some points on it is will have a nice range and you can heal with it. Those are the main skills for killing dwarfs (and other classes) with 2h dk in my opinion.
    And before you say you need rage for your attacks: you will get some from a few hits of dwarfs quickshot, the jump, battle cry when you free yourself of the one stun dwarfs have, ... Further I never use the furious battle cry at the beginning of the game if I don't know I can oneshot the oponent, I use it to free me from a stun and keep the hide for emergency moments or to do crazy and kill a dwarf that is staying in his tesla.

    For the rest it's simple, I think to play pvp properly you should be able to kill your oponent in 4-5 heavy dmg shots (exepct tanky players), else you probably need a lot more farming. In my opinion running away and around to let some skills reset is a legit strategy, some will call you runner, but mostly after you killed them :) (I'm certainly not saying you should run till game ends and both players get constant dmg).

    Also for the record, my 2h dk is nowhere near 20k dmg or 80% crit, it's a noob compared to 99% of youtube vids, but still by adjusting my gameplay I manage to win some pvp (not all, but wel, it shouldn't be more than 50% of the time if it's a good system).






    Again about the dwarf: hp on turrets is a bad idea. How will you determine the life?
    use a fixed number? then the number is probably to high in the beginning of the game and too low at endgame
    use a fixed number of hits? then everybody can just hit the turrets with there fastest skills and turret is gone
    make is dependent on you own hp? I see super hp dwarfs arising where people will wine about and this will give problems to new players who have no hp nor dmg.

    I do am for a dmg reduction based on how far you are from your turret, like the mage attacks, let's say the game checks every second or half second how far the dwarf is from the turret and adjusts the dmg of the turret accordingly. For example some nicely placed automated turrets giving an X form of fire will never deal full dmg as the turret stand apart from each other and at least one turret will deal less damage.
     
  7. Erebus

    Erebus User

    Be our guest, any complaints you have about the moderation team you can forward to support, feel free to send your proofs as well, this is the last deviation towards the topic I'll allow, as I said, if you have complaints+proof, contact support, best regards.
     
  8. jslaughter

    jslaughter Forum Apprentice

    i wish we all could stay focused on topic which is balancing toons and especially pvp and not attacking the moderators, they are only doing the job they were hired to do. i was dissapointed that something got deleted in one of my posts but i understand why and attacking any of the moderators on any level is not going to help any of us get closer to helping to solve the real issues here which involve trying to get bigpoint to understand the importance of treating pve and pvp seperately and really balancing certain characters in pvp which at the moment seems to be really focused on the mech.

    As a correction, i guess the topic is really about the changes to the dwarf that were on the test server but after seeing so many posts of so many players agreeing that there needs to be balance especially in pvp and with the dwarfs it feels the topic has shifted more that way.
     
    semen470 likes this.
  9. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    Novadude, because if you nerf a class just because they had some slight advantage mid game...you're going to DESTROY that class at end game. that's unfair if that class is already one of the slowest boss killing classes. all classes have peaks and valleys during their progression to get the gear/sets they want. maybe the sm you have played with say they have similar damage, but are actually using blue or higher and not telling you. i understand your frustration with the drop turret and run strategy, but it's really no different than a ranger or sw using skills and having to run as well. it's not like bosses just sit in the turret damage for us. it's just moments of the bosses walking through them and then we're dealing zero damage and out of steam. it's not like we're doing any damage with normal attacks considering the boss hp. if we run too far, the turrets get dismantled anyway. i was merely comparing how quickly other classes were able to kill bosses compared to sm.
     
    Gregminator likes this.
  10. tom_45

    tom_45 Forum Greenhorn

    hello , you should increase animation's speed of heavy shot , is so low if we compare to EA or Fireball , and have cool down on it too... the time you send an heavy shot you receive 2 fire balls.
     
  11. Mal3ficent

    Mal3ficent Guest

  12. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    This would be another interesting question DEVs should answer: why heavy shot has 1" channeling and is the only skill that didn't have any change in the framerate?
     
  13. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    I don't just play with mechs, I actually play a mech about 2/3rds the time, typically in a durable two tIII ring of life + 2H tier III herald build with about 9400 for minimum damage on green ess (max is somewhere around 12000 i think). It is stupid easy to solo painful pws and i can solo most excruciating pws on blues and some fatal maps on reds.

    I don't agree with the nerfs, including the flat hp on turrets, but this game is too mech-centric at the moment.
     
  14. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    Novadude, and if i tell you i can clear t5 maps on green but i can't handle the bosses, yet my ranger, sw, and 2h dk are sending me vids of them smoking the bosses with ease on blues or purple? still mech-centric? (clever word by the way. it made me smile)

    bottom line, as many on here have stated, let's separate pvp from pve, but we can't just change something because a few have a hard time with it. i have some 9k damage sw and ranger friends that blow me away in pvp. their skilled and wise in their assaults in pvp. does that mean i will BEG for a nerf? no. it means i need to get better at it. do i think that sm should maybe have a 1 or 2 hit kill spam skill? it would be nice! lol. a well timed sw or ranger can lead anyone into a 1 or 2 hit trap. just like dk can lead the other classes into their charge or jump attacks and crit to kill. pvp is a mind game. some play chess better than others.

    i can't find the post, but someone asked for heavyshot to have a faster animation speed. i agree. NOT for those of us with fast speed. i can practically heavyshot and run. raise the breakpoint for slower players. that animation takes damn near an entire second for sm with less than 2.00 speed. it's SO damn slow it's almost not even a viable option to use for them. so there they are...bangin away at like 1.30 speed, with turrets as their ONLY shot as winning and god forbid they try to catch someone with heavyshot and take an EA or fireball spam.

    Devs and mods, please pass this on...you CAN'T speed up every other class...and slow one down. that's simply unfair. that's not "balance". that cripples us in pve also. so if you ARE going to speed up, or EVEN think about speeding up the other classes...speed up the rest. this should be ying and yang. not yiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing and yng. lol.
     
    semen470 likes this.
  15. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    We'll have to wait and see what possible nerf is coming. I'm happy to see that as of now, the dev's have backed off on the class killing.

    DSO created this problem when they nerfed crit in 155. There was a huge shift to the dwarf class at that point. On top of that, the idea of nerfing crit in the upper levels of the pw only made it easier for someone to switch to dwarf.

    In lower levels, I agree that it is easier for the dwarf. That doesn't make the class OP, just a bit easier until you reach end game. At that point, no matter which class you play, you'll be dedicating time/money if you want to truly be OP. Just choosing a class won't cut it.

    Despite what some may believe, getting a dwarf to 20K dmg isn't easy. Mine is a quarter of that currently.

    The main issue began when they decided to bump dmg rates so high that everything went out the window.

    2 years ago, the most OP players were in the 2500-3000 range. Then it got bumped to 6500-7000, and now it is 20,000.

    Despite the claims (going back years) that they are working on balancing pvp, they go out of their way to create sets that boost dmg to unreal amounts without considering what affect that has on pvp.

    There is a massive gap between the OP and everyone else. However, it is because of the small percentage of OP players in pvp that gets everyone nerfed which simply kills the majority of players.

    Until DSO wakes up and figures out how to separate pvp from pve or puts a cap on dmg output, this situation will only get worse and the nerf stick will continue to beat us all.
     
    semen470 likes this.
  16. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    I stand by what I said. Game balance should be more focused on the low to mid tier end game players at this moment.

    I am intrigued by rhysingstars idea of a damage cap in pvp.

    The peak of this game, in my opinion, was the late level 40 days through level 45 days. Maybe through the early level 50 days. The inteoduction of the massive % based (mostly damage) items has just spiraled thing out of control.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
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  17. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Completely agree. PVP used to be very good when lvl 40 was max, still pretty good at 45, but got ruined after R155. Now it is simply a who hits who first game.

    With the massive dmg jump from this last level update, I shudder to think what it will be like when 60 comes to town. We went up 3X with the last one. Will we see 60K beasts ruling the arenas next?

    We know that the dev's only have one idea, nerf the class that gets complained about most.

    This is why players need to think of alternatives and offer them up instead of asking for a nerf all the time. If we focus our efforts on how to fix or at least tweak pvp a bit where it is somewhat more fair without nerfing, we may be able to refocus on building our characters without worrying about what will be taken away.
     
    semen470 likes this.
  18. ZenGrinding

    ZenGrinding Forum Greenhorn

    There are a lot of misconceptions in this thread.
    Also, hello forum!

    Most important, balancing has little to do with complaints. Every MMO analyzes player statistics and based on these measurements they nerf and buff classes. Since nerfs are bad for business, this tool will not be used lightly.

    I play a dwarf, I don’t mind the nerf, but I think this could have been solved more elegant. Simply adjust the speed of turret bullets and turn speed. Players can keep their beloved numbers and the game becomes more skill based with dodging bullets.
    If that does not help, let turrets disappear sooner or nerf steam gains. I guess the dwarf was never meant to be able to keep 4 turrets alive. I also guess low level dwarfs are as much underperforming as high level dwarf are over performing. This divergence is partly based on steam supply.

    I hope this helps, enjoy the game!
     
  19. alchimista

    alchimista Forum Pro

    EDIT

    Bp is up to propose us , a transformation from Hybrid skill/minion to minion.

    Suggestions to do that, they must follow few rules, like :

    • 1 single turret placement per time.
    • Removing range reduction and consequently remove 10pt steam recovering skill from wisdom tree
    • Add a 30 seconds cooldown for summoning turrets ( no more continue istant free summon )
    • Rebalance Quit shot from 66% dmg to 100+% dmg
    • Rebalance Bomb skill from 90% dmg to 120+% dmg
    AND Add Heay shot to "reworked" skills as well

    SkillSkill Unlock FrameMotion Unlock FrameHit FrameOld Frames (Skill/Motion/Hit)
    HEAVY SHOT
    Quick Shot156513/5/4
    Bomb156515/15/5
     
    Last edited by moderator: Aug 14, 2017
  20. krawler2018

    krawler2018 Junior Expert

    if what u say happens then the dwarfs will be the weakest class in the game, u have to think before making a suggestion, the dwarf is most fun to play to me and if i cant summon more than 1 turret it will get too hard and then boring
     
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