Announcement Dwarf class & Skill Rebalancing

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by Sunlight, Jul 28, 2017.

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  1. cigarbennett

    cigarbennett Board Analyst

    More rebalancing???? why???? I don't play a dwarf and even I can see this rebalancing is hurting us all. We farm for ever matri, cores, gold for crafting.. Then the developers just change it over night. Wasting all the time we spent playing the game. smn
  2. aleksa1277

    aleksa1277 Forum Apprentice

    With tis nerf you kill all the dwarf's class,you will lose many players. I think I will find a new game
    lovatic66 and divaofdanger like this.
  3. iNeXoRaBlE

    iNeXoRaBlE Forum Great Master

    I have one more idea for the Hp issue.
    It would be best if the turrets didn't have hp but Successful hit count
    For example:
    Turret needs 3hits to be destroyed (poison,flames dont count) so no matter the dmg the turret will be up.
  4. Kingpin003

    Kingpin003 Someday Author

    You're not nerfing dwarfs, you're killing them and the whole game along side. Sadly I don't see myself playing the game either if this gets implemented and I only play as a tank.
    lovatic66 and divaofdanger like this.
  5. Kindly keep on-topic. Debate the proposed changes, not other classes or each-other.
  6. HunnyBunny

    HunnyBunny Forum Greenhorn

    I like the idea of where your going with this, but i sudgest that because youre giving the turrets hp, you might want to consider giving the turrets 100-200% more hp than the host (dwarf) because they cant move, from the video i watched, in pvp the turrets have been rendered almost useless because there is a delay from when the turret's hitbox spawns and when the turret can first shoot which means that someone with a good reaction time can keep the turrets out of the game without them even being able to shoot.
  7. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    I'm going to try to say what i want to say without getting banned from the forums here. so let's just begin.

    Those of you happy to see other classes nerfed are fools. you probably compare yourself to other classes with sets, crafted gear and much more skill than you do. you're happy to see someone else fall while thinking your class isn't going to get royally messed up too? get better gear. learn to craft. your char probably just sucks and no one wants you in a party. sm is not as easy class to play. i didn't laugh when rangers got their nerf. i didn't smile. i didn't rejoice. i fought for them. being happy other classes get nerfed is like celebrating a car crash. you're a fool.

    Now, as a dwarf, let's go over some realistic things here. our main skills for damage do not crit. dwarf are all about turrets and they don't crit at all. we have 3 usable skills that do. quickshot (normal attack), heavyshot (3 second cooldown) and shrapnel shot (1 min cooldown). shrapnel shot has very low damage capabilities, but it's a nice little AoE skill. heavyshot is nice during herald buff, but pretty much just a skill to kill something on the last of its hp. all skills we use often, but it's not like heavyshot and shrapnel shot are readily available when we want them.

    mechanical turrets are for pvp and only used in pve to cooldown herald set. tesla is awfully weak and if your dk friends want you to use it, they simply need to get better. the dk i play with couldn't care less if i used tesla or not. we all just want the boss dead. dk have plenty of abilities to remove stuns, freeze etc. if you stand in front of herald and tank like you're're gonna have a bad time. back to sm skills here. iron dwarf...sure, you can keep it as long as you are killing monsters to get a 1.5 second buff for each monster killed. not going to happen in fatal or infernal. that skill is useless in pve. rockets break armor and stun mobs/mini bosses/proc herald buff. they're slow. almost every class in pvp just avoids that snail speed rocket as it meanders on its way to blow up alone. tactical turrets are to boost run speed and get back steam. great for steams with low attack speed to be able to keep other turrets up and active. steams with high speed have almost zero use for them outside pvp. dwarf in the box lasts a whopping 3 seconds while other class gets 10 seconds of taunt on their skill or at least they can summon wolves or tree-man-dude-guy to kind of get in the way of things. oil slick, bombs, and steam conductor are completely useless.

    Taking speed away from machine gun damage seems to be the most destructive thing you could do to a class that doesn't have skills that crit. sm have 2 ways to become stronger for damage: base damage and attack speed for our machine guns. sm literally have ONE main damage skill and that's machine guns. mechanical turrets don't deal ANY damage to a boss as far as total hp goes. tesla barely deals the more damge than our normal attacks and at an incredibly slow rate of attack. bosses often walk right out of turrets and we have to set up new ones WHILE being able to keep up mechanical turrets for cooldown of our herald set so we can continue to do our part hacking away at the bosses massive hp. the videos you see online are of the TOP of the TOP. so you are seeing some test server sm destroy bosses VERY quickly in order to help with feedback, results, and possibilities of a class. that doesn't mean EVERY sm solos lvl 4 bosses in sheer moments. that means that with perfect crafts, amazing uniques, and amazing gems that it CAN be done. everyone says that sm are best or second best damage dealers. you're correct in the fact that machine guns deal damage to whatever is in their path, but it's not like we're hitting every monster in that pack for 500k each second or some crazy number you have in your head. sm's job is to wound packs so the crit classes can use their set of skills and hopefully pick off the mobs the sm have hopefully made to 50-60% less hp as the sw and rangers work through and into that mob as a team. that's our job as sm...well and also to give an added armor break so those mini bosses just melt away. now as far as boss fights go, sm are on the bottom of the list as far as solo or group damage goes. i'm not talking OP sw and ranger vs poor lil sm who just got lvl 55 yesterday. i'm talking my 20k damage at 2.51 speed with other 20k damage classes with +2.00 speed together as a team. if we could SEE a "damage dealt" chart at the end of the boss battle between 2h dk, sw, ranger and sm. even with a tank as the beast to keep the boss in place for sm. i freaking assure you SM would be at the bottom. yes, we DO deal constant steady damage, but we don't have the same explosive power of crits from set buffs. don't get me wrong, i'm not complaining. i love my class, but we're not the crazy OP damagers people think we are. yes, there are classes that kill SUPER fast on youtube. surprise! they paid a hell of a lot to get there and hours and hours of crafting fails. don't complain about it saying "awww my class can't do that". yes they can. just in different margins of difficulty and items needed.

    I TOTALLY agree with the folks in this thread and others who say we should all be recommending bonuses or skill changes etc to our OWN classes. not crying that you feel blahblah class is stronger than yours. SW RUN pvp. everyone knows that. they need a boost in pve. sure. that's fine, but it won't happen. enjoy your nerf too.

    Destructible turrets. Cool. fine. whatever. we'll get used to it. we'll have to be more careful where we place them. a certain amount of hits to kill it as iNeXoRaBlE said is a waste. 1 sigris set sw and that's done. also, most classes have such fast attack speed it would take 1.2 seconds MAX to kill one of our little baby turrets do a whole 5k damage IF they happen to hit someone...and thats on my almost 22k damage in pvp...and that number drops fast with heavily armored toons. sm have a hard enough time getting those damned wolves off us or the guardian from sw. if you look at pvp damage scores at the end of 5v5 or'll find little sm's down way at the bottom with 500k damage while the sw, rangers and 2h dk are resting at the top with +2m damage. make it so our turrets, our only damaging skill, can be destroyed and you'll find us sitting less than 200k damage in pvp fights. as far as boss fights, mechanical turrets are the only ones we can choose where they get dropped. so we'd just have to adjust them near us to get that little boost of damage, but what happens when we stand still at boss fights? the bosses drop their elemental bomb...RIP our turrets each time. sure, we can drop them and move like we do, but we're already low on steam from keeping up 4 of them at once. maybe give us a skill to repair them during battles, but don't make them so fragile that everything just farts on them and they get destroyed.

    Also, these skill animations...why do ALL 3 other classes get faster animations on their most deadly/powerful skills for pvp and pve and sm get faster bombs?!?!??!??! who the #$%@ uses bombs? not even NEW players use bombs. what the hell kind of joke is this?! 6 faster skills animations for sw, 6 for rangers, 6 for dk, and TWO for sm?! ONE of them no one has ever used in the history of DSO! not to mention the fact that the other classes' motion unlock frame rate has been HALVED or MORE! SM go from 5 to 6! so c'mon BP.

    If BP is going to change Steam Mechanicus to be better adjust to the other classes. Let's discuss crit possibilities here. I DO have an issue with it, but i'd be willing to give it a shot MUCH more than this current testing of what's going on. Obviously, we'd have to reduce machine gun damage right off the bat. they hit 3 times per second each. so add two turrets...6 times a second. 60 times in 10 seconds. if left alone with a BASIC 50% hi rate and 3.50 hit damage which is quite easy to reach...that would mean absolutely insane damage output because all we would have to do is add a different helm, make some different rings, maybe use a little different gear and that's not going to be fair. we'd outdamage classes by liek 300%. that's no a good adjustment. IF and IF crit was introduced to sm, those sapphire to onyx converted would HAVE to be brought back and most sm don't bother to keep onyx. any sm to start AFTER lvl 55 expansion don't have another choice, so they probably have a few in the adornment or they toss them and add rubies. sm would be SO far behind in crit chance though, so we'd have to find a way to work that out with the gems we were able to keep. but, since mechanical turrets are our main pvp turret at only 50% damage, those would only need a minor reduction as we can have two of them and their fire rate is slow. it's virtually our main pvp skill aside from normal attack and defense turrets to move and get steam back. even with crits mechanical turrets would do MINOR damage in pve compared to our couple of other usable skills. if we were able to crit, i'm not sure of the answer for iron dwarf. it would be usable again, but could become too OP since for 12 seconds we can't be stunned and we get crazy armor and resists. SM going into a crit class like the rest would be a more difficult adjustment for the DSO team. I think it would be hard to figure out potential end class builds as players are usually ahead of teams when finding that extra little bit of damage/crit etc.

    if infernal II is coming, and new bosses and more additions to the game, i think it's better to make MINOR adjustments to classes rather than try to rebuild a class years later. don't nerf us, give us harder bosses to fight. make some kind of crazy PW arena where you have to fight ALL 8 bosses one by one to get the reward chest. push us to our limits with gameplay...not to our limits with frustration of losing our best skills class by class.

    all in all, i feel it would be a better change to work on some sort of crit designs (give us a HEADS UP to start REALLY collecting onyx, give us some idea of which skills would become our new best friend) than making our turrets made out of paper, taking away our machine gun speed mechanics which is our ONLY method of doing pve damage. these changes aren't a balancing. balancing would be taking the 4 classes, adding PRETTY darn equal gear, gems, uniques etc and calculating different damage amounts from beginner to top tier gears and gems. the only exception would be tanks. their job is hard enough in tank mode. so you'd have to be careful not to mess up tanking skills when adjusting...and i mean ADJUSTING skills little by little until each classes strengths, flaws and such maybe more in balance. i understand that someone with class blahblah will always complain class blahblah is stronger. that's because that's how people work...and it sucks. if BP was able to build, demonstrate and release damage outputs of said different tiered and geared possibilities without TELLING how to build each char perfectly, maybe those that feel robbed in their classes would be able to look and say "dang, i could achieve that. i see it now". instead, they see these crazy videos of said classes REALLY kicking butts and they feel weak.

    i wish i had the patience to work out some math etc, but frankly, i'm a tad frustrated as all the other sm's are and i'm not sure my equations would be perfect as i get a little lost in some of the mechanics because...well...i'm lazy.

    if anyone has made it this far, you're a trooper. let's keep this thread to recommendations and feedback. not just saying "well, i'm quitting now. RIP dso!". let's give advice about our class and see if we can't figure out some middle ground here...and next class to have "balancing" can try the same until BP starts to realize it's players ACTUALLY have some good points. especially those long term players who have a TON of knowledge. if this entire nerfing process continues, infernal II will be impossible without money...and BP...that's not how you make money. no one wants to spend money out of frustration.

    all classes should be sticking together on these matters.

    Rant over.

    yours truly,

    Mr. Abradolflincler, the flirty little green SM who doesn't want his class to die.

    EDIT: also, i never see OP players crying about other classes. what does that tell you? GIT GUD!!! stop sucking at your class.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  8. Falk101

    Falk101 Junior Expert

    What i think it will happen if this dwarf genocide comes :

    - Most of dwarfs will stop the game or change class
    - It will be harder for DK to tank infernal without tesla and with less dmg group
    - Braco will find nobody to farm and finish their sets.
    - Only mages will be able to farm, good mages can kill infernal bosses alone, till their rebalancing.

    You're rebalancing idea (nerfs strongly all class) seems to be very stupid. Everybody in this game will feel cheated because they invested a lot of time and / or money. The good way i think would be to add new content with new difficulty to keep challenge for everybody.

    And please stop to listen noob cryers, they don't know how to build their class and they always jealous of other class, they ruin this game.

    Maybe you think by this way people will invest more in the game but i think it's a wrong way and you will loose many more than you will win. We'll see in the future but with this update this game start to smell bad.

    Where you saw that ? I would like to see... DK suffered a lot and need to be very very good now to can play and tank normally in infernal mode. I think you should spend less time on youtube and more for farming. Crying about best players of the game will not help you to become better... I'm afraid you will stay a noob.
    Bulma44, Kaimooks and lovatic66 like this.
  9. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Your post should be pinned to the top of this discussion and everyone should be forced to read it before being allowed to comment. For the last couple of years, the one constant topic on this forum is such and such class needs nerfed.

    I like the idea of a dwarf being tweaked to use crit, and you are completely right, it should be discussed openly and honestly before it is implemented but that could solve a lot of the problems and maybe some of the complaining.

    Zulily19, ΣMiwel and AbradolfLincler like this.
  10. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Ambassador

    Dwarf does not need nerfing. Of course, on live servers it's a lot easier to solo everything with dwarf as you can place turrets and run. But it is not wrong that it is possible. It is wrong that soloing (especially bosses) with ranger or mage is a lot harder, as you have to stop very often to attack. What they are doing with skill animations seems to be a sort of solution... but is it really?
    If we all got together we could stop them from wrecking dwarf and make them buff mage pve-wise instead of nerfing. However, even in this thread, we see a huge class fight and blaming each other... Will community ever awake?
  11. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    ΣMiwel, i know it seems easy to just drop turrets and run, but we only have ONE skill that can actually do damage to bosses and they often walk right out of them. I have gone direct to a boss and had others go separate, but direct to the same boss. we start...i'm ALWAYS the last to come out by over twice the time. bosses don't stay in our damage long as we have to keep running and moving. it's not like we can run, turn back, do some good damage and move again. our normal attacks are caca. lol. normal attacks are strictly for steam regen and they have even slowed that animation down for us. thweet.
  12. Green.P

    Green.P Forum Greenhorn

    that nerff not rebalancing . the nerf is kill dwarf class . RIP dwards :(

  13. pahan30033

    pahan30033 Forum Greenhorn

    You will lose thousands of its players
  14. jslaughter

    jslaughter Forum Apprentice

    I would like to say as a player of a little over a year now i have really enjoyed this game. I have built up a dwarf that i really enjoy playing and im not afraid to admit that i have spent alot of money playing and building mine and my wifes characters. All total it amounts to thousands of dollars and some people might say thats crazy but for something we really enjoy its worth it. Were both older and play the game because we enjoy it and it passes time in a fun way but i have to say i am heartbroken to see what you are about to do to the dwarf. I have put too much into my dwarf to want to start over with another character. It was a hard enough pill to swallow when the last nerf brought the damage done by essence down so much, but i understand that was a bug fix, so i accepted it. But this idea now is all taking away from the dwarf and adding nothing. The extra damage for being near the turrets is worthless because dwarfs dont have the armor, health, or healing ability to stand in one place, we need to run. This is really distressing. [EDIT] I enjoy Drakensang [EDIT] but if you really destroy the dwarf like this then im better off putting my money in [EDIT]. I really did not want to do this because i have met good people and made many friends in Drakensang but i cant deal with this bad of a nerf to my dwarf so although it has been alot of fun, if this happens then its time to say goodbye. I sincerely hope you reconsider, im sure you have enough paying players right now that you wont miss a few thousand dollars a year but how long will that last if im not the only one that feels this way?

    And why was my post edited by moderator? Is BP that afraid of losing players you can't mention another game? [EDIT] I live in america and we highly believe in freedom of speech not censorship. This is just [EDIT]

    There's a set of forum rules you should abide by if you post in the forums, no matter the background for said rules or if you personally feel they are "censoring" towards you, consider this a last warning.
    Last edited by moderator: Jul 30, 2017
  15. Trolalala

    Trolalala Forum Apprentice

    Just reduce damage on the turrents, especially mechanical turrents as people are complaining about them in pvp. Or make all turrents weaker in pvp. These changes are way too harsh.

    If you remove speed multiplier add crit multiplier

    Looks like everyone should play all 4 characters and after a major nerf move to a new one, till dwarf is propped up after couple releases or rangers, dks and mages are nerfed lower.
  16. kadyong

    kadyong Forum Greenhorn

    Totally not agree with this re-balancing on dwarf.
    Remove the hp on the turrets, dont remove the attack multiplier and that would be ok.
    But if you include those two points.. that would be the end for Dwarfs players.
  17. tom_45

    tom_45 Forum Greenhorn

    Hello , i'm on holiday since yesterday for one month , i was enjoying play my dwarf this month , since i saw what you prepare and ask feedback i deleted auto-premium , and was lclose to delete my char.... friends decide me to not do but what is sure , i'm disapointed and will not play anymore if you put those changes on real server , ty for destroy the start of my holiday , i should better leave game and enjoy something else , more than 1 year wasted to see this **** comming .
    I don'thope you good anniversary.
  18. uenkai

    uenkai Forum Apprentice

    Re-balancing on all Classes by nerfing our character is a big wrong move. Instead i feel that bigpoint should rebalance their own "creation and implementation" of their set bonus they introduce to us. This way could be fairly digest by us players whom spent so much hard work creating our character to keep our character in the right pace for current game releases.

    Reason being, you change "attack speed gems to runes" thus we can have more attack speed by purchasing/via events for speed runes by inputting it into "rune slot for weapon andorment and weapon2h". Gradually for those dwarf in this case whom rely heavily on attack speed for better damage without critical hit, they have alot of such "runes" to build thier attack speed. But today, your so-call "rebalancing" you gonna hit them hard. Same for mortis ring set bonus with 10%attack speed. Being able to own 2x rank4 mortis ring waiting for it to drop it luckily isnt so simple and easy as what you think on our "players point of view". So finally they achieved and owned it and pleasure with it, within few months with your so call "rebalancing" you gonna made our joy become sorrows.

    Yes this world and society is moving rapidly and from what i see recent months bigpoint is going all out with such a pace as well to implement many new stuffs and bring it to game with monthly new releases once or twice without fail. But is there really such a need? These mess of so call "unbalance", i personally dont feel problem lies in the 4types of characters rather than those items bigpoint introduce and created. Therefore to make it happy for us players and easy for you game administrators, my feedback was probably you could rebalance and re work your set bonus unique etc rather than punishing all 4 different type of character classes "skills" indirectly. This is a Multi online role-playing game which i see all 4 type of character classes equally as important to form a team to conquer and fight together especially with coming infernal2 difficulty and so on..

    In May, i see in urban areas all different classes having "heredur helmet" and "grimmage boots" =) Today, i see in urban areas all different classes are using "new dragan sets" due to recent "new reworked dragan event" LOL. What i am trying to imply here is that this is one great example bigpoint your "fast pace" of implementation killed our building of our characters. We worked hard to farm and craft good legendaries and transfered over to heredur helmet and grimmage boots but less than a month comes new dragan set reworked being allowed to do transfer crafting from legendaries and give more "set bonus damage". So from now on, who will still visit Q1 and Q3 infernal? =) This is just my own point of view and trying to explain, instead of rebalancing our character by changing our chracter "skills" maybe you should really look into it by changing your "creation of set unique bonus".

    P.S: i hope i am not off topic on this thread and offended anybody. Pardon me if i do. I just hope to share and feedback on my point of view. Rebalancing by nerfing all 4 types of characters is a really wrong move NO. We spent time and efforts and for some loyal addict dso folks they spent alot of "money" to build their respective characters. This is not like creating a release monthly so fast. It could take months or even years for their character to be strong and perfect at our "players desire". You will make us lose faith and hope if you cut off by changing our "skills" which all along these years we had been using.

    Of course above some matured folks said are true and i totally agreed. "We shouldnt spent our time debating and complaining on other characters strength etc. Instead we should look into our own character and work hard to farm and amend our character to keep in the pace we are right now with coming infernal 2 and so on and so on.. =) All had changed tremendously in this game at present moment. There are more i wish to add and share but i shall not do so as i will definitely go out of topic on current thread.

    Good luck all,
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
    Zulily19 and divaofdanger like this.
  19. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    So you removed the attack speed multiplier from machin gun dmg formula and I have to say BRAVO to anyone in the dev team, I give you some numbers to show how ignorant you are.
    ANY other calse FOR EVERY high dmg skills do HAVE 6 DMG multipliers:
    - % dmg on this item (mainly weapon)
    - %weapon dmg
    - crit dmg
    - attack speed
    - % dmg
    - skill multiplier

    ANY other classe can get up to:
    - ~320% crit dmg (80% CC and 400% CHD) but we can agree a more reliable multiplier is around 200%
    - 50%-160% attack speed this one isn't a direct multiplier and the range varies a lot but I will speak only about new player that don't have sapphires in their disposal

    Dwarfs CAN'T benefit from crit dmg (it's a 200% dmg multiplier that is GONE) and now they will ALSO lose another 160% DMG because they won't benefit from attack speed.
    Consider that this are FLAT DMG multiplier, they are as they are and not inflated or watered down.

    ANY other class compared to dwarfs have ~x3,2 times the dmg a dwarf can deal.

    But this is not over.
    ANY other class summon doesn't cost resource (and therefor was kill-able) while dwarfs turrets COST resources.
    ALSO, dwarfs have the SLOWEST resource regen.
    You mixed both the things in and you gave em:
    - the highest cost for skill (a skill that potentially will deal ZERO DMG because it can be destroyed BEFORE it deals any dmg)
    - the highest ess cost (for a skill that can deal ZERO dmg)
    - the LOWEST HP per summoned skill (500HP @ lvl 55... guys you have a great sense of humor)
    - the LOWEST resourse regen (2,5 steam point per sec)
    - you even SLOWED DOWN SM autoattack (guys seriusly you need some rest); ANY other class got faster attack speed on ANY skill dwarfs, instead, got their animation SLOWED down in the R189 patch (where you slowed down the casting anymation on any turrets so now it takes 1,5" to deploy a Machingun turrets and 2,5" for a tesla) and now they got slowed down EVEN the quick shot animations...
    - none of the other skill got buffed or reworked (NONE) this is a flat nerf with no other work on any other aspects.

    You even LOWERED the dmg on tesla but you didn't fix that you can't have more than one tesla doing dmg in the same spot (even when they come from different players)... how the hell can you be so bad @ fixing stuffs?

    Anyone with a brain knew that dwarfs were good only in 1vs1 scenarios while were totally useless in team matches, but you listened to noobs that werent even able to handle 3-4k hit while they were potentially dealing 30-40k crit hits...

    There was a time in which developers were ignoring players suggestions and things were a lot better.

    GG guys.

    Sure they don't take agro...
    Infact they take agro exactly in the worst situations.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
    semen470 and Demon like this.
  20. iNeXoRaBlE

    iNeXoRaBlE Forum Great Master

    Look, something has to be done in general, we can't one shot each other. Or Fight forever, for those who say that the dwarfs are the weakest, what game are you playing? Now at group plays its mainly your fault for not understanding your role. (each class at 5v5 has a different role)
    The role of the dwarf is to pressure and defend not do dmg and take kills, for example defend the base or prevent the others from getting close, personally i have seen 2-3 dwarfs that play good at 5v5.
    I know its hard making a strategy after getting used on auto hit on your boring Dwarf.
    Instead of whining and crying on the floor, try to make some decent suggestions.
    Now back on topic

    My Final tweeks about Dwarf rebalance

    -Turrets will have invulnerability till they spawn and after that 2~3 hits for the turret to go down (not some hp)
    -Turrets affected only by dmg not by poison/fire/ice effects
    -If a turret is destroyed before the full spawn time a Steam return will occur.
    for example if a turret has a cost of 10steam and lasts 10secs, if a monster destroys is at 8secs a 2steam refund will occur.
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