Announcement Dwarf class & Skill Rebalancing

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by Sunlight, Jul 28, 2017.

Dear forum reader,

if you’d like to actively participate on the forum by joining discussions or starting your own threads or topics, please log into the game first. If you do not have a game account, you will need to register for one. We look forward to your next visit! CLICK HERE
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. AlexCC

    AlexCC Someday Author

    Seems to me that the problem was that the game designers gave an OP skill to the class, and naturally players built around it (not their fault).

    Ideally all classes should be equally desirable to have in group, while having complementary roles. I think that this is the goal that game designers should aim to, regarding PVE.
  2. EhtovK

    EhtovK Old Hand

    What a damn mess..., let's break it down a little bit, shall we?

    Good idea on paper, actually very good concept, but when you pair it with "breakable" turrets..., it's a no go for one of them at the very least, we cannot talk about "smart deployment" if the turrets will depend on the Dwarf's proximity to have their maximum damage output, since the dwarf will pull aggro and there's a load of ranged/splash damage from mobs.

    Are you out of your minds?, a lot of us have suggested to rework the automated turrets in the past, and reducing the base damage and removing the attack speed multipliers would be good only if you were going to factor in crit, removing the AS multiplier and reducing the damage without a positive countermeasure is just killing the skill altogether, it's just as if you stripped down the crit possibilities of EA, Smash, Fury of the Dragon, Mighty Wild Swing, Precision Shot, Frozen Sphere, or Lightning Strike.

    Also, care to tell me what a dwarf should aim for in a weapon adornment from now on if the AS multiplier is gone from the automated turrets?, %crit on this item?, crit damage?, attack speed still so that it only benefits their basic attacks?, lol.

    Mechanical and tactical turret having HP?, I can live with that, since both are mainly support skills just like RA's wolves/tree and SW's guardian, and the first one, the apparent main cause of PvP complaints due to the auto-aiming. But Automated and Tesla, both being THE main damage output of a SM is just a PvE killer, if you've died to an automated turret in PvP it's because, let's face it, you were outplayed, same as if you died from Lightning strike, take your losses and move on.

    Have you thought about all the possible variables that would play a role in breakable MG and Tesla turrets?:
    • DDH challenge map, and Sulfur desert with perma-poison, Sharr Karab's boss fight when he's inside his lamp (entire map under above average damage and tick rate area damage).
    • Grimmag's meteor spam and post-teleport fire waves, Arachna's poison puddles and meteor rains, Heredur's spammy ice novas with high damage and high radius covering a lot of area, Bearach's cross lightning and sudden blade dances, Khalys' absurd missile pattern, Herald's meteors, flaming boulders, fire waves and endless supply of high HP minions, Sigris' absolute chaos of ice missiles, icy-spiky-balls, frost waves, lightning strikes and insane ranged chain lightning, Mortis' knight have an area damage swing, not too high damage but still.
    • Have you thought of a Dragan boss fight with 3-4 lasers, 4 high hp, high damage Black knights and Dragan himself going around?, good luck with that, I'd like to see any of you pull that off with breakable MG and Tesla turrets.
    • Don't forget our "beloved" christmas event and Kramparus' mini event, I'd like to see one of you devs showcasing a "how to run" with a midget in those scenarios, those heads were OHKO-ing tanks, good luck if they get a turret.
    • The sheer amount of ranged monsters inside every map (All type of archers, trolls, Nefertari cultists, Witches, Cyclops, Cannoneers, Dragonbrood, Q7 and Q8 SWs, Clawstriders, etc.), and melee monsters with area attacks makes it a hellish mess, if some SWs mess up keeping alive a potentially mana-free spawn like guardian, I'd like to see you devs pull that off with 2-6 turrets.
    • Have you noticed how we all die from 1-2 fire waves from the fire monsters inside event maps that are using the old screwed damage formula?, how do you expect a dwarf to stay close to a turret to get the damage bonus when a fire black knight is dashing towards you with 99% letal fire waves coming from him?, aren't chain lightnings from champions going to bounce off as well?, potentially forcing the dwarf to stay away from his own turrets to have them do maimed damage?
    • Tesla will have a hitbox in the center of its damage, please stop and think it through, it doesn't take 2 brain cells to realize it doesn't have the range of the other turrets, it's as if you give singularity HP and a hitbox, it's pure nonsense.
    • They don't draw aggro?, lol, as if they need to, they have limited range and if you run too far to "protect them", poof, gone burgers, if you stay close, good luck cloning yourself to deal with the snipers while surrounded by melee enemies.
    • PvP wise..., as I said, breakable Mechanical turrets are fine to me, even tactical ones, but even in that scenario, you gotta ask yourselves what other good and usable PvP skills dwarves have, they're being laid waste by SWs and RAs as they are now, you want to introduce breakable turrets to a massive damage One-hit-KO PvP meta, where even the high HP Black knights from Dragan's ring are dying in two farts, would we all like our weapons to be broken by other classes and take 50 mana/rage/concentration to repair each time?, give me a break.
    • Mind control working on turrets is like allowing us to deflect skills like EA or FS back to the caster, perhaps if you'd limit it to the mechanical one...
    These are a bunch of poorly thought changes because you're not analyzing every possible scenario and all that comes into play..., because you don't play don't you?, but even a SW like me can see all this, we all need rebalancing?, yes, but every negative change has to have a positive countermeasure, e.g., removing EA's explosion wasn't that bad for PvP (yes, I went in and saw for myself), but had a huge negative and unjustified impact in PvE (RA Q7 nerf did too), because it didn't have any positive countermeasures to make up for it (e.g., bigger explosion radius, bigger projectile size), now you're letting your PvP grudge against dwarves to show without thinking the changes through and the PvE impact they'll have, we have had numerous suggestions on how to rebalance dwarves, but this is way too far from what we suggested.

    Bear this in mind too, the rest of the classes come next, if we don't make them see that ridiculous nerfs without half a real thought, there'll be plenty of room in the expanded Cardhun for everyone to stare at each other begging for OP old players or payers to carry people who was already carrying their own weight

    Just my humble opinion..., and last but not least:

    Good change, endorses spam play on PvP but it'll benefit everyone..., except midgets, although it's a nice change for PvE, the heavy impact will be on PvP while we adapt.
  3. Muminnn

    Muminnn Forum Greenhorn

    I play on Mage, but that what you do with the dwarfs is so bad. You wil just destroy the game. The turets are the only weapon from dwarfs, and you make them destroyable. Make a balance in game, but dont do that with destroying dwarf character, you wil lose much players, dont look just money, if you do so, you wil lose both, players and money, you got blind from it. Its tooooo much what you do there. Dwarfs wil not be able to kil in arena and to farm, you took their only weapons. Make a balance but not destroy the game, ask players what you sould do, we play the game, we know better what sould be changed.
    rcch likes this.
  4. Dragonnns

    Dragonnns Count Count

    If the goal is rebalancing the classes, this is overkill. Rather than making each class or skill less useful, why not give the other classes more. For example, if the issue is that the Steam Mechanicus does too much damage in PvP, give the other classes more armor/damage/speed to mitigate it.

    Balancing doesn't mean nerfing.
    rcch likes this.
  5. zoldorak

    zoldorak Forum Apprentice

    im DK , stop stop u want to destroy drawf? remove pve ranking solo
    yes for pve ranking group minimun 4 different classe for group ( with this method all players will be very happy)
    for pvp all good payer ar good (all classe)

    thx u.
    tbird and magicus like this.
  6. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    Actually it's even worse than that and this shows how little "other players" know about dwarfs.
    The attack speed you see in the stat Windows doesn't matter at all. All that matter is the % attack speed bonus.
    The least a dwarf can get it's 25% from the first talent in Quick Shot. That buff works also on machingun turrets.
    Any dwarf that doesn't stack that buff before landing a MG turret was basically losing 25% dmg and that was a thing that made the difference between noobs and good players.
    Then you had the attack speed from gloves and adornament which were almost a forced choise, they are not items on which you have any other options and those are AT LEAST another 25% attack speed.
    Even if you started the game 2 days ago, as a dwarf, you had a 50% dmg boost on MG turrets.
    ANYONE that saw a video with a dwarf dealing 40-50k dmg on MG turrets had AT LEAST 200% attack speed bonus which turned to be a x3 multiplier on MG turrets.
    Without that multiplier they are gonna cut up to 70-80% dwarfs DMG.

    About the agro on turrets, watch this video:

    As clearly shown ANY mob deals SPLASH dmg so there's NO chance that a turret can survive to ANY attack (even the ones from trash mobs) if you stay close the turrets and guess what? The actual buff
    (that you are forced to use otherwise you will lose ANOTHER 20% DMG on ANY turret) needs you to stay CLOSE to the turrets.

    In this video instead, you can clearly see that ANY boss aims his telegraphed attacks ALSO on the turrets (Grimmag's meteors, Heredur's Ice novas, Arakna's poison metheors, bearak's lightnings, Heralds metheors, Sigri's lightings without talking about Mortis AoE Attacks and Khalis' crazy missiles).

    So turrets aren't taking agro [EDIT]
    Last edited by moderator: Jul 30, 2017
  7. Demon

    Demon Forum Mogul

    I think they should nerf that skill that brake the armor in pvp, that is the real unbalanced thing not the tourets, the tourets are for pve.
  8. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    the turrets aren't taking the aggro at all. what you're seeing is the short delay between the boss aiming at the players old location after they recognize that the boss was doing to do an attack and they move causing the boss to attack the location of the turrets because they player WAS there moments ago.

    EhtovK, i never thought about some of the events with map damage and how impossible that would make things if the turrets were so easily broke.

    half the time i drop turrets, i try to do so before a bunch of ranged mobs shoot in my direction. you stumble across them on the map and they fire right away at you. drop a turret, move to a better location, drop another, move again and use normal attack to get steam back for the next mob or if you need more turrets to destroy the current mob. in this case, both turrets would have gotten destroyed by either the ranged mob OR the melee mob trying to swing at me as i am trying to drop my ONLY method of doing damage.

    I will say this again and again and again...

    NO properly GEARED, CRAFTED, and PLAYED chars complain about sm's or other classes. if you think speed multiplier should be removed because your class doesn't have it, you shouldn't be speaking up in this thread. if sm are outdamaging you, THEY have crafted uniques, and you obviously don't. end of story. get into the crafting threads. bang away at that work bench. LEARN THE OTHER CLASSES! our main attack isn't broken, it's different. it's ok that other classes have different skills and that they have different mechanics.

    *drops mic* i'm out
    divaofdanger likes this.
  9. Armando

    Armando Forum Connoisseur

    I had a look at my dwarf on the test server (not only some videos).
    This is indeed not a nerf, it's devastating destruction.
    I don't mind damage reductions, but making the turrets destructible changes the whole game mechanics for dwarves, and in the current design makes it virtually impossible to solo play anything, let alone doing difficult bossruns with AoE damage (as described above by EhtovK) or doing any kind of PvP.

    If you insist on moving forward with this step, I demand you give turrets at least as much HP as the ranger's wolves (and/or a few seconds of immunity), AND you refund the steam as suggested above (refund = steam cost - % of damage effect time passed before destruction).

    Steam management was always crucial for SM's, and allowing turrets to be destroyed without steam refund really makes the SM unplayable. Full stop.
    divaofdanger likes this.
  10. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    in my ignorance, why was the video from magicus removed? as far as i could tell it was him on TS showing difficulty with the current set up on the TS. can someone or a mod explain this please? i was going to show a video of my sm on TS too and i don't want it to get removed. i guess i'm just not sure what is or isn't allowed to be demonstrated on here. i read the video sharing rules and i don't see the error. thanks in advance!


    EDIT Erebus, thanks. i guess i was watching the char more than any chat boxes or music. thanks for the clarification! i don't always pay attention to the little things.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
  11. Erebus

    Erebus User

    Hello @magicus, a kind reminder that any media shared in the forums is subject to the forum rules, profanity/vulgarity (even implied) is not allowed in written form, chat boxes or even the music of the videos, you're more than welcome to re-upload your video when you've edited it to suit the forum rules, best regards.

    And you're more than welcome to do so, @AbradolfLincler, as long as media is DSO related (there's specific sections of the forums where you can share non-DSO related media), and don't contain details as to: exploits/cheating, explicit content, inappropriate music and/or inappropriate language (note that implied/masked vulgarity is still treated as such), you're more than welcome to share your DSO videos in the forums, best regards.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
  12. magicus

    magicus Forum Apprentice

    It s not mine the video ...i found it in turkysh tread ! But not important all can go to see this in that tread.

    Ps. For my personal opinion the dwarf does not need nerf in pve and needs to be pumped into pvp because it is the most disadvantaged class with 6/14 useless skills.
    BP should replace them with more effective skills, but for now only think of destroying a class where I personally spent many thousands of euros. If even a small nerf is made to the dwarf, I and my family have decided to stop this game! Just today I have canceled three premium. Good luck to those who stay
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
  13. Arx_X

    Arx_X Advanced

    I started leveling my DK that was stuck at 41.. good choice
    My main is a SM that is still in the 4/4 crafting stage ... so now the already low chance of getting adornment or gloves with usable craftable stats is also gone. np - moving on
    AS redundant? no % crit ? in pve killable turrets?

    I'll just quote myself from the "Release 185" thread... give me a stick and it will do just as good as a 4/4 after these updates are live.

    I'm glad i spent money on EDIT , DSO would have been a poor choice.

    go ahead BP , put all the codes on lootboy , give free premium and so on every 3rd day, your 100 players pool will be thankful
    Last edited by moderator: Jul 30, 2017
  14. Demon

    Demon Forum Mogul

    The only class that should be bufed is Dk because in PVE solo farm is no so productive like other class and in PvP when it get the armor destroyed he is naked and he die from one shot with all his life and regen.
    All class should be nerfed on the braking armor skills on pvp and on the skilld efects like burn poison bleeding ...that is all we need in pvp to gain some ballance.
    This one by one nerf is a bad thing, we need a real ballance for all classes at once not necessary nerfs can be buff too.
    You cant use a class as a standard and after to nerf all clases to have them equal.This all ballance sould be made for all at once not one by one.
    Give us well equiped characters on test server do the ballance there let us test in pvp and pve , do some tweaks for a month or so, listen the feedback and maybe you will get this right.
    OR make arena maps a special environement with a diferent behavier and you make the PVP balance there after you make the pve balance.
    So you will need to have two potentiometers , the big one for PvE and the small one that apply after that big one for PVP.
    The PVP one will be most used and you just switch some % from patch to patch you dont need to ballance items or skills for PVE too.
    Is simple , only you BP are stubborn and want to make them for both.
  15. Universeea

    Universeea Advanced

    Nooooo DK does not need any buffs not even close to struggling in pve i would say DK is excelling in PVE
    Szmaciak likes this.
  16. KubQn

    KubQn Forum Apprentice

    So in every post you're crying about SM nerfs, because u're probably taking 4 of them to party. And now u're saying that the only class who need buff is DK, because you play him? Sad.
    We're talking about SM here only, so your post should be deleted.

    About SM:
    What does that mean? That SM is definietly the strongest class and you agree with that. So there are 2 solutions: Nerf dmg of SM, because atm SM is the easiest to play class and to get strong w/o even playing that much (building only DMG is a lot easier than crits/crit dmg).
    And the 2nd solution: Buff other classes. But then, they will need to make difficulty of all monsters higher aswell.

    To the nerfs:
    I suggest you buffing HP of the turrets OR like ppl already said: make something like 3 seconds of turrest being immune to the dmg and then: if turrets stay lets say for 10s (maximum amount of time) and it gets destroyed after 8s u're refunded 20% of the turret cost, 3s 70% etc.

    To the dmg nerf, seems legit, if SM would be too weak class, bring back ASP multiplier with a less boost in the next patch. Piece.
    Szmaciak likes this.
  17. UndergroundKiller

    UndergroundKiller Forum Expert

    How can you call those videos 'a proof'?! It's like I sit spamming green arrows, mobs kill me and then I complain about how that skill is weak...

    We all agree that this rebalance is wrong, but many are going too far with their imagination
  18. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    Stop spreading false informations to enforce the misleading miths around the class.
    There's no "if" or "but" on the case, Turrets are taking (they ALWAYS did) the agro of ANY bosses' telegraphed Attack.

    Let's see if anyone will try to object again answering this simple question:
    In the picture below we have 3 metheors landing with a 2 player's party; who's aimed at the third metheor?

    A- Dwarf's invisible friend
    B- Noone, we are all drunk ad we see double metheor
    C- MG turret


    Do we have to make the same question about the trash mobs and their splash dmg?

    This isn't something someone can argue about: this system is a bad designed and poorly structured implementetation of an idea taken from ppl that has never played nor knowed the SM class.

    Another mith that must be destryed.

    Building a dwarf has never been easier than any other class.
    They got only 3 DMG multipliers (%DMG on weapon; % DMG; Attack speed) beside skill DMG multiplier.
    Any dwarf will try to stack those 3 attributes on his equipment (generally attack speed on gloves and adornament, %dmg on torso, belt and helm and weapon dmg on weapon oc) and they will always try to get a 3,5-4/4 enchants of the same kind on any of those items (exactly like any other class).
    What are the chance to craft a 3/4 - 4/4 item for a dwarf? Exactly the same as any other class.
    It is easier to craft a 4/4 % dmg helm for a dwarf compared a 4/4 %crit rate for a SW or a RA? NO, they got exactly the same chances BUT for a SW or a RA an helm with 3 Golden ench on % crit and 1 Golden ench on % dmg it's a very good item (because any other class will take full advantage both from % dmg and % crit rate), would it be true also for dwarfs? NO, the % crit rate it's total garbage.

    Let's ignore that dwarfs don't get much benefit from crit base stat on rings and adornament (we, dwarfs, are nice ppl and we have no pretends on those).

    Then, why it SEEMS easier to build a dwarf compared to other classes? Because the % dmg multiplier on skills it's higher therefor on early stages their dmg scales much faster BUT, as already said in my other posts, this is a fast run with short breath. Any other class does have a potential x2-3 (or more) dmg multiplier because of crits that dwarfs will never benefit.
    End game player will deal comparable dmg when full builded (we saw DK, SW and RA killing fatal bosses in 13-14" exactly like we saw dwarfs doing that, with the only objection that the dwarfs that were killing bosses in 13-14" were using SAPPHIRES in their adormanet, somenthing new dwarfs will never have anymore).
    Infact a silent nerf has already come for dwarfs: what they should put in their adornament? Rubyes for a pathetic dmg boost? Onyxes for an even more pathtic boost?
    The only skills that crit are quick shot, heavy shot, shrapnel shot and bombs and all of them don't provide solid dmg; would you even consider usable EA if it had 3" cooldown? Well imagine that EA or FS not only had 3" cooldown but also won't apply ANY debuff and doesn't have the subsequential AoE DMG and that's the skill some genius said should compensate the DMG loss from the MG turret nerf.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
    lovatic66 and mateandrei like this.
  19. ThukMohl

    ThukMohl Forum Apprentice

    I understand that dso devt team just want to know what the players opinion on their idea of rebalancing the dwarf class but now this isn't about that anymore. This is about you guys, DSO devt team or their publisher Bigpoint, letting know the whole community how poor the management of your company is. This is business after all... any business want a good profit... any business want a good image of their company. Its very basic you don't let your defective product reach your customer or give information that your crafting a defective product. You just let us know how incompetent your company is. Who in the right mind will trust you now? You don't rip the dwarf class nor the ranger class or any class of this game. You rip your company.

    Well even if you don't release it on live server it doesn't matter. Who in the right mind will trust you???

    I don't mind wasting my 4 months playing this game. I enjoyed it specially the dragan event... not the event or the game actually rather the people i've met in-game.

    I'm gonna quit playing? maybe not its free after all ;)
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
    Szmaciak likes this.
  20. anolajen

    anolajen Someday Author

    is that bad ? i think situation where all have to stop damaging and run before meteor / fire nova will while dwarf just run keeping almost all dmg was completely wrong now sm lose dps by runing same as everyone else

    ddh sulphur poisons .... all deal small % of total hp so it needs fixed time to kill turret ( 20-30sec even if it doesnt have any resistance) irrelevant for 10s turret
    dragan = there are spots where turrets cannot be hit near entrace also lasers can and should be disabled
    grimmag = far from spam +explained below
    bearach = always charge player so just dont ave turrets between him and someone else
    mortis knights = very small range nothing for auto turrets
    ranged monsters = they target you not turrets ... if they ever hit turret it was you who lured shot in wrong direction ( also turrets can take some hits from them)
    - no one said you have to be close for bonus damage in every situation
    - lightning jumps from monsters have extremely small range you can keep safe even tesla lol
    - give as coldown free singularity with 5x more dmg longer dutaion and possibility to have two at once and i wont mind hitbox
    - pvp wise others finally dont have to go throught immortal turrets to get in range lol
    - mind control works on every summon ... mages lose whole guardian ranger wolves and tree ... why should be losing single turret problem lol

    saved - he casts meteor on every minion where is problem ...
    cast guardian near him he focus it and kill with single fireball thats what taking aggro mean lol not meteor every 30+sec

    keeping turret alive most of time will not be that hard .. but its end to mindless spamming turrets to single spot
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.