Announcement Dwarf class & Skill Rebalancing

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by Sunlight, Jul 28, 2017.

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  1. magicus

    magicus Forum Apprentice

    Only one Quest :
    Why Tesla are destructible and singolarity of mage is not?
    Thorn path of ranger is not ???
  2. avalon31

    avalon31 Someday Author

    Because Tesla is tangible :D Do you want destroy something cosmic? lol. Thicket of thrones, hmm. That is too big object and what else, how u imagine that?
  3. cdeepal

    cdeepal Forum Baron

    Specific Points
    I am ok with most of the changes. And I think they are in the right direction.

    However, note the following.
    I don't think removing the attack speed multiplier from machine gun turrets is the right thing.
    Because machine gun turret and the tesla turret are the two main attacks that dwarves use against PvE.
    Since the machine gun turret or tesla turret does not get affected by crit, the only way they can do considerable damage in PvE is when there turrets take the attack speed into account.
    Therefore, my suggestion is to leave the attack speed multiplier on machine gun turrets as it is now.

    Second thing is the HP on turrets. This is fine.
    However, this should not be a fixed value depending just on the characters level.
    It should be proportionate to the characters armor and health at the time of spawning the turret.
    It may not have the same health amount, but perhaps about 50% of the health of the spawner and same armor as the spawner.

    For example, if a Dwarf with 20k health and 7k armor spawns the turret, it should have 10k health and 7k armor.
    It it was spawned by a Dwarf with 50k health and 10k armor, then the turret should have 25k health and 10k armor.

    The same formula should be applied to the Guardian of Mages (50% health and same armor)
    and Ranger trees (75% health since they are slow and same armor), wolves (30% health each, and same armor)

    A General Point
    These are very drastic changes. The dwarf community will not take this nerf lightly. In my opinion, you are trying to nerf too much in one release.
    My advice is to apply these changes over several releases and listen to player reactions, experiences after every change and adjust accordingly before the next change.

    If you apply all these changes at once, there will be many players who would quit, regardless of whether these changes are in the right direction or not.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
    Armando and DocWhisky like this.
  4. motorola11

    motorola11 Forum Apprentice

    cdepal say :
    The same formula should be applied to the Guardian of Mages (50% health and same armor)
    and Ranger trees (75% health since they are slow and same armor), wolves (30% health each, and same armor)

    The above mentioned skills fall into the dwarf in box not machine gun turets
    (this is balancing you in the right direction and you have no idea what you are talking about) is same skill like mages guardian and rangers wolves

    i can be seen that you play mag or ranger,
    So I suggest that when they have already hit the most used skills, it would be fair to say that the :

    1 .mag is rubbing the same "formula" on skill fire ball and Singularity(
    (50% health and same armor)

    Rangeru explosive arrow and precision shot

    3. tank Mighty Wild Swing and Rage Jump.

    When that happens then we can say that balancing is going right way

    sorry for bad english
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
    AmarWilrick, Kan_Krum and lovatic66 like this.
  5. UndergroundKiller

    UndergroundKiller Forum Expert

    Are you serious?

    How can you put HP on an arrow?! Or on a Fireball?! Or, even worse, on a sword swing?!

    Just tell me, if I take a real bow and I shot you, are you sure you can destroy the arrow that is being shot? Can you kill the action of swinging a sword?

    I don't think so.
    I mean, shoting an arrow/fireball is an action, swinging a sword is an action, jumping is an action... A tourret is an object

    Wolves are MINIONS, Guardian is a MINION, tourrets are MINIONS, that being said, just because tourrets deal more damage then a Guardian, you think they don't have to have hp?
  6. xXxTroublexXx

    xXxTroublexXx Forum Apprentice

    I Always ask myself if the developers actualy play the game and I'm pretty sure they don't. I didn't plan to react, but well, I have some free time now :p

    Why the life on turrets? both tesla and machine gun turrets are perfectly dodgeble, don't even need high IQ for it. Also the mechanical turret is perfectly dodgeble, just run and shoot. (I often get annoyed when people are complaining on this forum about certain things that can simply be solved by the most basic tactic: run and shoot, that how I soloed a lot of bosses when I started playing and didn't find group, sure it takes longer, but in the end, you reach your goal.) And yes, if you have absolutely nothing on runspeed, you can't dodge mechenical turret, but even with a few wisdom points on runspeed you should be able to dodge them. further, mechanical turret does not deal super damage to oneshot somebody (even if that should be the problem, just reduce the damage).
    So realy why the life on turrets? I would understand it if you cannot dodge the attacks, but you can (with a little understanding I can find the life on mechanical turret ok, but the others are just dumb).
    Problems I see now are very simple: turrets are down before they deal damage as they don't deal damage directly after placing them and people can probably crit them (didn't test this)). Tesla defence becomes useless, and even when playing with a tank, arrows will fly around and hit turrets. If the life on turrets stay, the steam costs should be reduced drastically.

    Removing speed multipler on machine turret without extra buff, why? A dwarf is a dwarf because he has turrets, that's what the dwarf makes the dwarf. If all turrets just deal x% of base damage flat without crit chance, it's very hard to keep using the turrets at end game as you are stuck very fast. it's just dumb. Give it a crit change and people can stop crying about "no crit for dwarf needed" on forums.

    The buff when you are in close range: Badly implemented idea it seems, certainly with the redicilous life on turrets. Should it be better to add system like the lightning strike for mages, that when you are in smal circle around turret, you receive full damage and when you move further away damage reduces?

    I think the changes made will make turrets not the main source of damage anymore, and in this case other skills need to be changed as well.
  7. motorola11

    motorola11 Forum Apprentice

    i say :
    mag is rubbing the same "formula" on skill fire ball and Singularity(
    (50% health and same armor)

    " formula " blancing the most brisk and most used skill MACHINE GUN TURRET to YOU better understand genocide on dwarf is :

    1. mag:
    - Remove from FIRE BALL ( CRIT ,ATTACK SPEED ,AND CRIT DMG ) OR maby for you most used skill is guardians :)
    -Remove from ICE MISSLEE ATTACK SPEED OR maby for you most used skill is guardians :)
    2. ranger :
    -Remove from explosive arow( CRIT ,ATTACK SPEED ,AND CRIT DMG) OR maby for you most used skill is Wolves :)
    -Remove from precision shot ( CRIT ,ATTACK SPEED ,AND CRIT DMG ) OR maby for you most used skill is Wolves :)

    3 tank:
    -Remove form Mighty Wild Swing (CRIT , ATTACK SPEED AND CRIT DMG)
    -Remove form Smash (CRIT , ATTACK SPEED AND CRIT DMG)

    When that happens then we can say that balancing is going right way


    guardians , wolves and ( most used skill in dwarf ) macine gun turetts , or maby when you go on boss in PW use guardians or wolves to kill npr. mortis:)
    AmarWilrick likes this.
  8. UndergroundKiller

    UndergroundKiller Forum Expert

    The most used skills are green arrows, magic missile/ice missile and quick shot ;)

    And, yeah, I'm serious when I compare those skills, because they are all considered Minions, wich means they have to have the same basic features.

    BTW, saying that, I don't mean what they are doing is right and I already said it in my first post in this thread.
    The whole idea doesn't sound really bad, but BP needs to not remove the attack speed multiplier and to increase the HP on the tourrets, or give them some seconds of immunity.
  9. molnijanx

    molnijanx Someday Author

    can`t agree with your 1st argument, "easy to dodge turrents", it`s like 75% of truth becose dodge can only other dwarf, mage and ranger. What about tanks? if thay will be running how thay kill dwarfs? I saw not one time how tank was jumping on dwarf at the same moment while dwarf was planting mechanical turrent and died like 1-2 sec...
  10. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    Turrets aren't summoned minions but are normal AoE with DoT.

    List of some of the AoE DoT:

    BANNER OF WAR -> Mighty Banner of War -> All foes in the area affected by Abanner of War will suffer 30% of your base damage as fire damage per second.
    FURY OF THE DRAGON -> Opponents in the affected area are slowed by 40% and suffer 150% of your base damage per second as fire damage.
    THICKET OF THORNS -> Opponents in the thicket are slowed by 80% and receive 55% of your base damage as poison damage every second.
    METEOR -> Flaming Inferno -> Foes hit by the Meteor will burn for 3 seconds, suffering 200% of your base damage as fire damage.
    FIREBALL -> Pyromania -> Fireball leaves a burning mark on the ground for 1,5 seconds, setting your enemies on fire. Burning enemies will take 90% of your base damage as fire damage over 3 seconds.
    SHRAPNEL SHOT -> Fire a Shrapnel Shot at a targeted position, causing 100% of your base damage as fire damage for 6,0 seconds to all foes within a 3,5 meter radius.

    All the AoE DoTs aren't untargettable and do crit and so have to do Dwarfs turrets
    The only turrets that could be eventually compared with summoned minons are mechanical and tactical.

    I will enjoy that any class will have the same resource regen of dwarfs (2,5/sec resource regen), that any auto-attack will give the same bonuses as quick shot (65% base dmg without any piercing/slowing affect and 3 mana/con/rage regen if talented).
    I will also enjoy that there will be the 10" immunity from any CC once the first is applied and that crits and heals won't work anymore in PvP.
    All the skill that deal dmg over 100% base DMG and don't have embedded cooldown will cost 8 essence and will have at least 50 resource cost.

    In the meanwhile they will also fix the bugged skills from dwarfs like:
    Oil Slick -> Place an Oil Slick at the desired location for 10,0 seconds (this is bugged and differently from the description is always casted at your current position)
    Tesla Turret -> Double Relays -> You can have two Tesla Turrets active at the same time (this is bugged and only the first turrets will deal DMG while other turrets casted in the same spot won't deal any dmg even if from different player which is blatantly bugged) <-
    actually this won't happen since the turrets are gonna be totally usless therefore noone will use it anyway.

    Get a decent equipment, use rage jump and might wild swing for a total 325% dmg crit-able. But I know that using 2 keys could be very hard for some players.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  11. KubQn

    KubQn Forum Apprentice

    How can compare those AoE DoTs to the Dwarf turrets?
    How can you cry about essence cost as a dwarf?
    How can you cry about 2,5/sec regen?
    You're a typicall dwarf who want his class to be 10x times stronger than the others w/o balance.

    Those AoE DoTs don't do a 450% (x2 225%) DMG in EACH second NON-STOP for another 10 seconds, where you're still allowed to do your 65% base dmg attack OR run away from a boss/player hits. Or if you're good enough put Tesla also so that's a total of 670% DPS.

    Those turrets are alive for 10 second at the cost of TWO EA/SPHERES/SWINGS, so WHO is wasting more essence here?
    Cost of 8 Essence for turret which will deal total of 2250% DMG comparing to 250% DMG Sphere which costs 4 Essence.

    Oh no! 2,5 steam per sec! Where you can have a total boost of 25% AS which regens 3 Steam per Shot, and I will remind that your turrets stands for 10s. If it's still not enough and you can use brain when you're playing, you have Tactical Turrets which gives you 20 Steam per shot.

    I was playing dwarf when 50 lvl was the max. Using 2 tacticals before boss (waiting untill those bombs are as near me as possible and standing fast 2 another = full steam with 2 fresh tacitals) allowed me to put 2 Machine Gun/Tesla turrets at 1,5 as w/o any problems. And if I didn't mess anything I had 3x Turrets perma attacking the boss. Even I decided to surr at my Main and started to playing this crap.
    But Dwarf gameplay is so boring and so sad for me that when they gived us 55lvl I decided to get it on my main again.

    Yea! Let's make dwarf turrets crits aswell and let them save ASP multiplier with it. Why not? It's only a 670% of non-stop DPS!
    You know why Ranger have something like Adrenaline and Mage Teleport aswell as 5 mana for each hit? Because we after x2 EA or x2 Lightnings don't have more mana and we're FORCED to do 60%/100% AA untill we get mana again.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  12. motorola11

    motorola11 Forum Apprentice

    You are always asking questions that suit your classes, especially magicians who shout at a forum like DSO started.
    What kind of balance you are talking about for you would be best to make one class (to call the mag may fly and shoot fireball).
    The point of each class is to be different in both the skill and the way of the game.
    You try to equate wolves, guardians, with machine gun turetts.
    I really do not know if you are limited with such thinking.
    It's not about balancing here, but about a purely commercial move to reformulate the dwarf so that all items that people crafted painfully for months fall into the water.

    My personal opinion is that the game is ripe for inserting a new class.
    So the gentlemen from BP will have new players, who will bring money fresh, existing dissatisfied magicians are going to these new classes (when I left my Ranfer for 4 years old ,and again worked hard on the dwarf,). Some of them come up if they do not see a mag of a new class.

    Because if this is done with a dwarf (and will do 100% write to me the reporters here, it's not good) most players leave dso forever.
  13. anolajen

    anolajen Someday Author

    hmm just small note this isnt bug but normal behavior cant tell if its intended or not but .... if spellweaver put two singularities under target ... only one will deal damage so it makes sense tesla works same way ( and any other aoe you manage to stack )

    gosh comparing destruction of black hole or ignition on enemy to mechanical tinkered turret toy o_O

    so how about ignoring turret hp for second and be constructive .... i think the faulty part of this rebalance is situation where turret get targeted by boss abilitis ( meteor, ice explosions,) ...

    as turrets doesnt aggro monsters .... they shouldnt be focus fired by spells as well dramatically increasing their chances to survive ( because honestly even 50k hp turret with 0 resist would be still be 1hit for grimmag meteors on higher difficulties and there isnt way to avoid this unlike projectiles
  14. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    KubQn, wow. what planet are you from? [EDIT] steams use CRAZY amount of steam to kill bosses. your opinion is focuses on solo played youtube vids when steam had the ess issue when we were too strong. unless the boss has those crappy skills that make everyone run constantly (repeated meteors, heredur and his chasing ice explosions, bear and his lightning) i'm using more ess than my ranger, sw and 2h dk friends. a LOT more. 2.61 speed eats ess and i'm constantly relocating turrets when the boss moves. all the while...burning MORE ess on herald buff. your class isn't 10X less strong. you just don't know how to build a char. sm is NOT the crazy damage thing you think it is. yes, we have amazing machine gun turret AoE, but that's it. seriously dude, if a dwarf is out damaging you at boss, you have [EDIT] gear and crafting knowledge...OR you're one of those fools who plays 1h sw or ranger. your ignorance on this subject outrages me like you couldn't believe. learn a class before making [EDIT] comments. people like YOU are why classes get nerfed...because you simply can't understand how other classes work. take some time, get some knowledge before you comment here and help ruin a class. be part of the solution, NOT part of the problem. i have +50k red ess damage, and my ranger and sw friends can keep up on their blue ess at boss. dwarf are OP? i think not. we're right where we should be. these changes will destroy our class. not yours. so you obviously don't care. as trakilaki has said, NO one wants to see a class nerf, but i'll get SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much joy watching BP ruin your class...because of you. i'll be sad the others got hit by the nerf bat...but not you. i'll revel in your misery as you ignorantly ponder through the game wondering why crafting is important. seriously. dwarf is the HARDEST solo class, and the slowest at boss. if some 12k damage sm is out damaging you at have to rethink how you made your char. bottom line...GIT GUD! you probably just [EDIT] can't understand why a fully crafted char can do more.

    P.S. enjoy the nerf you're about to bring to your own class. love to see your comments then.

    rant over.

    to the rest, again, thanks for recommendations and possible solutions. they're more appreciated...even if they aren't perfect...than these fools claiming things they barely understand.
    Last edited by moderator: Aug 5, 2017
  15. KubQn

    KubQn Forum Apprentice

    If I'm being ignorant then I have no idea who Saved_81 is. I haven't said that my class is 10x weaker than SM. It was reply to the upper post if you would read both of them.

    Yes I agree SM is using crazy amount of steam to kill bosses so is Ranger concentration, Tank fury and Mage mana.

    My opinion is based on my SM when lvl 50 was the highest lvl, so yes before ess issue.

    If you're running from heredur chain then I have no idea why does the tesla even exist.

    I have no idea how can you use more ess than other classes. Nobody force you to AA with ess on, it's only 65% dmg (w/o crit as you all are crying) to regen ur steam, so you can press button to take it off after using turrets.

    Yes every class is going to get nerf. When it will it happens, nothing I can do. I'm happy that I will make you happy when it happens.

    I wonder how many SM's are compare to the other classes that after SM get nerf there are so many posts, and when Rangers got it "nobody cares".

    As traki said everyone will try to defense his classes so you're doing it now. It's my opinion and I think that SM needs to be a bit nerfed. Making turrets destroyable force you to use brain when playing. The only problem with them and where I agree is that PvP with SM will became unplayable. Late game player DMG can reach ~~200k with crit, if they will make HP of the turret to the 250k so it won't be one shotted they will became a SHIELD in the PvE. So making them to destroy after 3-4 hits like wards in LoL would be a lot better.

    Again I have no idea how can you changing the direction of turrets so often that make you waste more ess than the others, when DK make the boss stay at the one place 70% of the time.

    The only think I can agree with you is that SM is not that easy when it comes to playing solo. About killing bosses solo the #1 spot will always be for the 2h DK.

    Those nerfs aren't live yet. I wonder if atleats 10% of the crying SM's plays on the test server. And you know. If SM would be such a trash after those nerfs became live, be careful, pro hint, IT CAN BE BUFFED again in the next patch. THATS HOW THE BALANCE WORKS.
    Fynkz likes this.
  16. -HARRA81-

    -HARRA81- Forum Mogul

    Turrets are summoned minions, according to the BA in the text resolution for damage output calculation changes in REL 191.
    Fynkz and UndergroundKiller like this.
  17. lordhead2

    lordhead2 Forum Greenhorn

    I think that the principal trouble with dwarf its attack speed. This is by used of saphires and atack speed runes simultaned. I m proposing that saphires is eliminated definitly of game.

    There is dwarf with attack speed greater than 3.0.

  18. UndergroundKiller

    UndergroundKiller Forum Expert

    I didn't try to compare wolves/guardians to (all) tourrets, I compared them, but just about how they are identified. They are all MINIONS and so they should have something similiar, like HP or anything... That doesn't mean I agree with the whole nerf incoming.

    That's ridicoulous.
    A dwarf uses 50 steam (e.g.) to summon a machinegun tourret that lasts for 10 seconds, while the player can still walk/shot, so how have you even thought about what you wrote? :/

    Tesla is the only one that couldn't be called Minion, as we all know that if you place two of them in the same spot, just one will deal damage (like AoE skills).
    Machinegun doesn't work as telsa, so... :rolleyes:

    I can't leave more than 1 like to your post :(
  19. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    i have to say this again...because apparently we still have some [EDIT] here. lol. if you compare a fully geared/crafted ranger, sw, or 2h dk to sm end game boss kill are the slowest. all you n00bs are comparing fully geared sm to your weak geared other class. my 50k damage on red ess doesn't touch a ranger, sw or 2h damage at boss. not even close.

    lordhead2, my friend, sm NEEDS attack speed for damage and please remember sm skills don't crit. only 3 of them crit in pve. yes, we have crazy speed, but we're still slower killers at end game stats than the other classes. please...just make your char better. your complaining about something that you have ZERO idea about. sm are the WORST boss killers. take sapphires away and you'll ruin our class.

    KubQn, bosses move a lot. only grimmag, khalys and sigris stay pretty still. even with a dk, bear moves, heredur causes us all to run off screen deleting our turrets, mortis has the knights that don't taunt well, herald seems to be the easiest boss, but he moves a lot and makes sm run off screen. i never liked the fact that sm (my class) can put up turrets on red ess and go back to green. i'll be honest. i don't do it. if my buddies will use their ess for sigris and mortis to make the kill faster, damn right i will too! not about to cheat and save ess. maybe i'm a rare player. not sure. don't care, but if you're gonna use yours, i'm gonna use mine. that's only fair.

    ...and for the 13,434,972,235th time...if you're getting outdamaged by a dwarf at the boss, you're char is NOT built correctly. i have asked my ranger, sw and 2h dk friends to make a vid and they aren't too keen on it. maybe they're worried if they show their kill speed that their class will get nerfed again. it's a fear we all have.

    end rant.

    p.s. let's work together on these nerfs. i fought for rangers. i'll fight for sw. if 2h dk get one...i'll fight for that too! don't let the Devs at BP ruin this game. stick together guys. thanks.
    Last edited by moderator: Aug 7, 2017
    AmarWilrick and magicus like this.
  20. magicus

    magicus Forum Apprentice

    Ooooooooo yes dwarf need Big nerf ..... lol ranger and mages not found team:

    Have you tried to do with dwarf infernal with green? ...

    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
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