Feedback Dwarf: Q7+Q8 combo

Discussion in 'Steam Mechanicus' started by ΣMiwel, Jan 8, 2019.

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  1. Purgerzg

    Purgerzg Active Author

    1.No,dwarf can't have permanent q7 buff
    2.I don't understand
    3.All classes have good sets,and can clear all maps with same speed
    4.What tesla group efect work when dwarf if solo?
    5.Dwarf also need CRIT with attack
    Mage and dwarf have same HP
    And you just described how mag fight,where is problem?Like I said,all classes with similar stats can do any map with similar speed.And put video of "how dwarf is much faster" and forget abut this uselles calculation (witch showing damage if turrets attack immediatly boss who is just standing in one place)
     
  2. bezryl

    bezryl Active Author

    so what is it you want? dwarfs to be worse on boss dps? nerfing q7-q8 is not going to fix that issue and wont impact map clearing much, a simple combo of 2 mahcine guns and 1 tesla wich is very reasonable to do will still beat the other classes. what then nerf those next?

    yes the other classes are better at cleaning maps, play a dwarf long enough and you will notice it

    it seems people still just cant accept dwarfs are better at 1 thing(boss killing) and continue to cry for nerfs, this game the class have never been *balanced* or *fair* and never will be.
     
    Night-Elemental likes this.
  3. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    It is functionally permanent. Since any turret constructed while the damage is buffed from the Q7 buff keeps that damage for it's entire 10 second lifespan, the main vector of DPS has a "permanent" Q7 buff.
    Check again. SMs and RAs have the same HP. That is why I said:
    That is the whole point of this thread. Even if the classes can all farm at about the same speed in map, it does not change the fact that comparably geared SMs will always out damage all the other classes when it comes to bosses.

    Did you read the thread, or are you just saying things to provoke a response?
    If anything, since the cool down aspect is one of the most OP aspects addressed in the OP's post, it would make sense that only the first of the three Q8 buffed shots should trigger the cool down reduction. The set is supposed to buff the damage and add a slowing element... not provide six seconds of cool down per second (that is what it does for all the other classes). This would bring the set in line with the balance of the other sets with minimal changes. They would still likely out perform the other classes against a stationary single target in terms of average DPS, but not by a factor of 2x-3x, or possibly more.


    You don't know me very well. I know there will always be differences by the very nature that there are multiple classes, but the differences should be reasonable... a two or three times higher average damage output against a single target is not what anyone with half a brain would call "reasonable." "Nerfing" the triple cool down feature would almost single handedly bring the SM's average damage output back to a *fair* and *balanced* level. Or are you telling me that you wouldn't raise hell if BP introduced a new set that made DK's out damage SMs by a factor of two? There is a fine line between having one class better at something than another and having an imbalance. You, and several others in this thread, have no concept of what that line looks like.
     
    ΣMiwel likes this.
  4. menestrelul

    menestrelul Forum Apprentice

    I'm sorry to get back to my subject about the accuracy of the attacks, apparently it seems a different topic, but I think it's related to the current hitch.
    If all calculations are only theoretical and applicable in ideal conditions, there is nothing to add. In fact, in "fight" things are a little different.
    LS produces 550% of the damage in the ideal conditions, as the two gentlemen wrote at the beginning of the topic.
    In the fight, things are a little different.I refer to a solo farmer or group without a tank.
    1) The first strike of LS ability is without the electrification effect.That means it only produces 425% of the damage.250% + 75% ( set) +100= 425%
    EA from the hunter encounters a similar problem when he hits the first time.The second stroke produces a lot of damage with the ability to reduce armor and resistance by 85% to normal monsters.
    2) In two, the monster moves after being hit by LS.This means that he does not receive the damage caused by the 5p talent( 100% dmg), which detonates after 3 seconds.
    "Lightning explosion that detonates 3,0 second after Lighting Strike's impact." With electrification effect but without further detonation of 100% damage...375%+75%(set) = 450%
    3) The unfortunate variant is when the LS strikes without the monster being electrified, then moves and does not catch even the 100% dmag detonation.250% +75%( set)=325% dmg
    At Herald or Heredur such blows are common.

    Taking into account this astonishment, a q4 magician is hardly approaching the damage of a dwarf with q7 and q8 that hit the target with a 95% potential due to the artificial intelligence of the turrets.

    If you show me a movie in which at least 90% of LS targets the Herald at maximum potential, I become your apprentice.
    You have to go solo on infernal 3 or 4 and we'll see how many LS hit the target.
    Most miagians in the game do not take into account monster resistance and use only FS.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  5. callme0216

    callme0216 Advanced

    Yes they can have perma buff i can prove your point.. dont listen to the other dwarf.
    I can shoot 1 rocket - deal with the 3sec buff ,than i can shoot another rocket.. but its not that easy as you all think.
    I play with 4 turrets and its kinda hard to manage to keep them up always and at the same time use rocket, HS.

    Now clear out your false aligation with this:
    [​IMG]

    They do pull agro thanks to a bug sometimes.

    [​IMG]

    It was mentioned plenty of times that every other class can be faster in mapfarm ,but slower in bossfights..
    Every other class has burst AoE dmg. Dwarf has a bounch of singletarget dmg..
    "my friend is faster in q3" "2min" "im stronger" like what..

    Did you even you thought about that dwarf sacrafice dmg for Q7-Q8 build?
    Did you know Dmg is not everything, just a number that people likes to see?
    Did you know not every class has the same skills with their set and tallent upgrades?
    Even if you has some kind of point with your "Q3" is the world going to collapse?

    My DK ,Ranger, and Mage friends are pretty fast with proper builds.
    While i able to put down my turrets half of the mob horde is gone so my ~80 steam that turrets consume is gone and i get back 60 since the mobs are done so i have to run away so the turrets are getting deployed.

    "Only" is a bit harse. I feel like its a madeup excuse.
    My main is a mage and i rarely have problem to hit targets with frozen sphere..
    Most of the bosses are standing.. mob hordes doesnt have 220% runspeed therefore for me its pretty easy to hit targets with it.

    Some people said that i dont have to use turrets?
    Bro what are you talking about Ranger has 10 sec basic CD on net and 40% instant CD if i shoot rocket and use the buff i can wait 22 sec to get my rocket back to even shoot with HS spam. If not then here we go again i can use turrets for nothing in mapfarming.
    And not even mentioning ,even if you are in a group with a dwarf you get hes group effect that gives you every 5th sec -21% CD..

    Papper form is always good, in the realistic its different a bit.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
    lovatic66 and Bundin like this.
  6. heror

    heror Forum Baron


    Is every dwarf player gong to write the exact opposite of mine while i have facts backed it up ?
    No ranger Net cd is 15 NOT 10
    While has CHANCE 40% not always while you as a dwarf is q7 for 3 secconds the turrets give you 6 seconds cooldown on the rockett per second so from 30 sec cd rocket it goes to 12 (6x3=18) then after 2 seconds more you have it again so its almost permanent and if you have 15% cooldonw on runes its absolutely parmanent,
    What bug what you are showing me is nothing herald and grimmag use meteor on every entity on the map despity having agro or ..... learn waht bug means

    @Purgerzg everybody needs a crit what are you talking about we are not accounting crit here since for the sake of comparing we are taking that everybody has 80% .... @_Baragain_ mentioned it and thats why we compare cooldowns and base dmg
     
  7. callme0216

    callme0216 Advanced

    The anger makes you blindfolded?
    What did i say at the top of my comment?


    Also according to what you think about "Net" CD
    [​IMG]

    -

    Oh really? You want to bet with me?
    Well you just got jebaited my friend again cause you lacking critical informations and you rather comment before you read something.
    Pretending that you know something is not going to make you know something

    Here you go. Same "meteor" boss with working in the right way as they dont get agro.
    [​IMG]

    Also Normal world Herald do "random" meteors but thats from ages and they do not agro the turrets even. Just to show you that in the 1st picture my turret didnt got "random" meteored.. it took agro that it shoudnt.
    Here is the picture about the Normal world Herald that cast random meteors..

    [​IMG]

    PW world bosses only cast Meteors Poison meteors when you get agroed.
    Turrets do not take agro. But there is a bug that makes them take agro sometimes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  8. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    You yourself said it was random ? so why are you making it look like abug then. When i play with dwarf in a group the metor always goes on their turrets , but from what you are showing it seems its not always the case so its not as bad as i described it.

    My bad on net cd i think it used to be 15 befor or im mistaking it with a Dk skill but still my point still holds on if he doesnt get lucky he must wait those 10 seconds , while if we have to count how much sec total dwarf has to wait its 1-2 seconds , so while ranger gets 1 dwarfs get 3 activations.
     
  9. Purgerzg

    Purgerzg Active Author

    No,you don't have buff,you have +150% dmg on turrets
     
  10. couda22

    couda22 Forum Expert

    Check following video - the dwarf was able to use the Q7 buff no later than 2 seconds after previous Q7 buff expiration (sometimes even immediatelly). So it is not permanent, but very close to permanent.


    [video removed]
     
    Last edited by moderator: Jan 10, 2019
  11. elitecrew1031

    elitecrew1031 Junior Expert

    why ppl are still trying to prove that SM broken class, yes they have great dps for bosses but in the map their clear is terrible EDIT
    And if we are going to cry for the most broken class im going to vote for a mage.
     
    Last edited by moderator: Jan 10, 2019
  12. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    Now compare it to others, sorry to say it but for tanks its exceptionlally hard to kill these goblins , for me as a mage too since i run out of mana at some point if i dont use mana pot and i cant armor break them every time, ranger s 40% might not activate and we loose clovers ? still my point holds true
     
    Last edited by moderator: Jan 10, 2019
  13. MikeyMetro

    MikeyMetro Forum Overlooker

    Ofc I cannot (besides the fact that I do not make videos ;)) I should be obvious that for any class/build a certain situation can be found that would render said class/build less potent. It would not matter how many LS hit in this example :rolleyes:
    True enough. Before when everything was 50% it did not matter. Some retraining is necessary these days.
     
  14. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Veteran

    That was ages ago. Now it's 30% vs 75%... read the set gives only additional 15% base damage to the skill.
    The whole point of the set for mages is to decrease the costs of FS and LS.
    Again, if the increase for the mages is so small (when it used to be large, which was a bug, people cried and it got fixed)...
    ...why would the dwarf increase be even that large? For mage it's 1.2x higher... so let it be like that for dwarfs. Or even 1.5x, it could make sense, as IM isn't a main damaging skill for mages. It could be 110% -> 55% (but x3). The damage halved, then only buff the SW and everything is balanced dmg-wise.
    Check again. It's no longer that way since R185. (vide Amethyst values, base values look the same way) Dwarfs are compensated by being able to dodge while turrets are attacking for them.
    It is a bug.
    It wasn't a random meteor at herald... so perfectly targeted.
    But that's a whole different topic. @callme0216 We aren't bringing bugs here. If we were, I'd start from saying that SW has a bug on destruction 3p. talent and FW 5p. talent, so mages are way weaker at regular hordes than it would look on paper.
    The thread is about the Q7+Q8 combo. Q8. It's about turrets. Wake up. I only said that special shot allow some additional damage while the turrets are doing the main work.
    The turrets are shooting 16 times in the whole duration, that makes the interval between shots 0.625 seconds.
    Maybe because it is broken? We aren't trying to prove it anymore... it's been proven already. We're trying to reach the devs with our insight.
     
  15. Purgerzg

    Purgerzg Active Author

    Yes it is broken,dwarf have destoyable attack skills,limited area of moving,only one skill affected with AS (HS will not consider),in your math theory did you calculate somehing like this: on map dwarf put 30-40 turrets that is 30-40 sek of not moving + no dmg.....
    You are trying to misguided devs with some math theory,and in pratice is not like that.So for last time here,all end build classes clear maps with same speed there is no need to change anything with any class in PVE
     
    Bundin likes this.
  16. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    By this logic half a year ago when ppl were saying how bad mages were , ppl like you said just how fine they are but in the end it was proven the opposite.
    You said it yourself all end game builds clear with almost equal skill but some of them are given more dmg on bosses , so coming on top of others, and that is the problem of the sets not the class in general
     
  17. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    For the last time, that isn't the purpose of this thread, so stop spamming with off topic garbage!

    Are you deliberately ignoring everything that the people who actually understand what we are talking about are saying? Sure, all the classes can clear maps at comparable speeds, but there is a very clear and obvious imbalance when it comes to bosses! If you don't want to admit the insane imbalance when it comes to bosses, you are an EDIT that can not be reasoned with. If this is the case, let me know now so I can simply ignore everything you type, but if you're willing to admit that a SM can do two to three times as much damage to a boss over a given time, then how about you provide a suggestion for how this should be fixed in a fair manner from your perspective.

    And, as I've said before, here is a way to balance this problem a little.
    My suggestion is that the cool down reduction from the triple ice shot from the mechanical turret only apply to the first of the three shots. This would barely impact the map clearing speed, but would go a long way towards balancing boss fights. Then, instead of 6-8 seconds of cooldown reduction every second, they'd still be getting 2-3 seconds of cooldown reduction per second, which is much closer to what other classes can manage.

    So, here is my challenge to you and all the other noobs who want to ignore the uncomfortable facts... recommend something better than what I've come up with that will actually address the problem without being some super-nerf.
     
    Last edited by moderator: Jan 11, 2019
    ΣMiwel likes this.
  18. elitecrew1031

    elitecrew1031 Junior Expert

    Dwarfs are broken for you,not for me.And why they are broken cuz they have the best dps on bosses.While mages have good dps on bosses and on maps.
    P.S Where are the ''moderators'' and why they are not closing this pathetic thread, because this is legit rant about ''my character sucks and it's dwarf fault''
     
  19. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Veteran

    Where are the moderators to delete such hate speech? Or they are prohibited to do so by the devs who have an unhealthy liking for dwarfs?

    Look, you (a noob by experience, mind and forum rank) are trying to fight way more experienced people who understand the way the game works and the math that stands behind, including one of the comminity gurus (living forum legend).
    But no, you're faultless, you have no strength of an argument, you can't use the argument of strength (you have no power here), so you just go on to insulting those who are trying to prove that you're terribly wrong.
    I have provided a calculation in the OP that shows that dwarf deals over 2x times the base damage percentage (and the q7 buff +150% to base damage on top of that) of a mage to bosses, with the mage having quite high values of stats dwarf doesn't make use of there, so he can have them as low as he wants (max. resource, attack speed, cd. reduction).

    If you are laying a claim that "mages have good dps on bosses", prove it with maths. Or are you taking those words from the fact that a mage you are playing / have recently played with is doing as good as you on bosses? Guess what... either you're a total noob (you are a noob, but dwarf q7+q8 gameplay doesn't require much brains) or the mage has 2x your damage and probably other stats better too.
    Those are your words. I'm saying that it's the problem of the set, not the class itself, nor by any means of the dwarf players.
     
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  20. Anyki

    Anyki User

    A healthy discussion about a perceived imbalance is not a reason to shut down a thread or there would not be any threads left. However, toxic behaviour, personal insults, and name calling would be. I suggest all parties re-read the forum rules and refrain from further flaming.
     
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