dwarf skill change ideas

Discussion in 'Steam Mechanicus' started by bezryl, Dec 11, 2019.

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  1. blackassam

    blackassam Regular

    You forgot to emphasize the primacy in the fight with the boss ...:rolleyes::p

    [​IMG]
    Fighting the boss will always be more telling than running to complete the map .... You don't have the same maps generated for everyone.:D;)

    ....emh I see that he dominates all the pictures in the fight against the boss ... but let's not create a reason for further quarrels. What should DK say to that, where it's much more beating in the eyes. Not only in strength, but also in the consumption of essence.:po_O
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
    rcch likes this.
  2. Bundin

    Bundin Junior Expert

    Fine fine arguments.... I see here goes a verbal karate...and everything what I see from text is that some takes the thing like a personal onrush.... calm down everybody.
    That can see everybody dwarf without turrets is a scrap everywhere, when we mess with these skills than we must so do that, we dont destroy the class completly like before BP did with rangers. I didnt saw in this thread any really good idea how to change the skills.
    My opinion is that general there was not as big mistake from BP at the beginning that the turrets cann not do critical dmg as the speed dependency was. Why say I that see from wiki what should mean critical hit: "Critical hits are meant to simulate an occasional "lucky hit". The concept represents the effect of hitting an artery, or finding a weak point..."
    So that is why can we critical hit but theres is a reason why a machine cann not have the same critical hit like a human and I think generally that was the reason why BP at the first time taked out it from the turrets. Because lucky hit can have but direct cann not aiming on weak points because for that the machine need an AI.
    So my opinion to balancing the turrets first must be decreased its critical hit chance. I think for turrets enough the half of the whole critical hit chance so when I have 47k critical than the turrets could have 23,5k.
    But the other side dwarf need mor AOE dmg because he is good on single targets but when you must fight with a swarm it's a s..t.
    So Iron dwarf could be changed for swarm fight I like that skill but as I wrote it it's useless because in this form a dwarf die easy when jump in the middel of a swarm of monsters, the skill must increase the HP because in this form the monsters cann not hit the dwarf directly, or the skill must have separated HP like the turrets and when its destroyed then the dwarf fell out from the iron dwarf and get some dmg when monsters destroy the Iron dwarf suit, but still could jump out from the swarm and can have it's healtpoints.

    Another thing in the old skills the dwarf could not use so many towers in time my opinion is it must be limited again in maximum 3 tower and the possibility to reach this option must be in the wisdom tree somehow for example:
    1. talent you can use in time 2 towers.
    2. talent you can use a third tower but not from the same type.
    3. talent you can use a fourth tower but a defensive one. ( in this case the tactical turret dont need a big change only its dmg must be removed, and the cost of it must be decreased for example to 30 steam)

    I hope everyone enjoyed my ideas.... and be creative dont fight with each other everyone must have their pleasure in the game...
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
  3. dwarfmageOP

    dwarfmageOP Forum Apprentice

    It's time for the ACTUAL TRUTH to be heard.
    Everyone stop saying dwarfs are bad in maps please. Even though everyone seems to think that dwarfa are only good at the boss.. whenever i play dwarf im always the first and kill everything before anyone else even get's a chance to look at the mob. Using 6 towers at the boss can also easily be achieved with things like mortis amulet, dtu jewel, steam buffs/pots people need to start to learn how to play dwarfs and stop taking the role of a walking cooldown resetter that does damage at the boss.

    Now about mages. the math shows that bloodmoon mages with q7 swap do about 1900% damage on a neutral boss? Now put in Heredur and karabossa pet's into the equation assuming you are hitting a neutral boss it has 60% resist these pets give -39% so that means a 1/3 DPS INCREASE 1900%x30% (rough numbers im not an expert on maths so not going into detail here) 2500%?

    Rangers are fine, they don't need to use exploits but they can reach higher or the same dps as mages if they know how to play and use some conc potions/buffs too.

    Now for warriors.... 18 smashes over 3 seconds = 240*18=4320
    3 seconds of rage attacks to get your cooldown for groundbreaker back = 60*3*3.3=594
    (4320+594)÷6=819 neutral boss has 60% armor 60-29=31% 819*1.3=1065% Now the interesting thing is... the warrior is the only class that NEEDS to have 25.5% runes in cooldown reduction to be able to achieve his maximum dps.... all the other classes can reach the max by doing pot spamm...

    Another funny thing.. in this game the stats and bosses hp scale so freaking hard that even tho the warriors don't have that much DPS already, this ridiculous scalings make the difference HUGE.... i tried out mortis set on my war the other day, got max 5.00 crit damage, asar pet on boss and got my teammate to use heredur now my war has all jewels/runes nearly maxed so he has about 160k damage
    My friend that i was playing with, a 100k+ damage mage told me after that boss run, "wow, warriors are actually trash".... when a dwarf uses mortis set it's INSANE.
    Even when a mage uses mortis set, it's also INSANE because they can use bloodmoon and dragan set in combination with it and reach 190k damage or maybe even higher.

    Pleasr compare warriors meager 600-700-800-900-1000-1100% DPS to the 2500% of mage (i didnt do any research about rangers/dwarfs but i'm sure rangers are up there with mages.

    Dwarfs on the other hand when you calculate their DPS Including each useful Boss resistance pet (heredur, karabossa, bloodmage and asar) i am sure they can reach even higher then 6000% DPS on the boss.... THIS IS ALL WITHOUT TAKING THE RIDICULOUS SCALING OF RED ESSENCE/MORTIS SET/UPCOMING DESERT ESSENCE in account.... dwarfs are already insane with white essence....
    if i do q1 on my war and use white ess in the 1st phase i do 500k max on a crit, with red ess it's 650k max we are talking about a 25% DPS increase here
    1065>1331
    Now in the dwarfs case 6000>7500
    Nice bigpoint with ess and pets dwarfs could deal exactly 5 times the DPS of a warrior :D
    (probably even more) but i am not an expert... i am only here trying to get people to realize a bit about the truth of these classes... since no one actually has the balls to do it.

    Hereby i advise every mage ranger and dwarf in this thread to stop arguing with each other because there is only 1 class of players that has the right to complain about others being FREAKING OVERPOWERED AND OUTSCALING THEM MORE THEN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FATAL AND INF4

    Now i am actually bothered that the warrior gets outperformed and outscaled by the other 3 classes so hard BUT.... is it crazy to say that the 2handed warrior is also dependant on the other 3 classes to even be able to tank any boss? And if you don't have maxed cooldown reduction runes like me keeping up your maximum dps 800~% is also very difficult if not impossible?

    There is only 1 thing that needs to be changed in my opinion before anything else and it has nothing to do with damage output... and this will actually cause the warrior to be even further outperformed by the other classes.
    You could have guessed it by what i said earlier. The racing the clock effect from the dwarves is actually what kills these classes' combined mechanics.... it's a no brain no skill passive effect that makes all classes ESPECIALLY WARRIOR dependant on dwarfs...

    Warriors should get single target DPS buff.... but before this happens the cooldown group effect from dwarfs should be changed... because then everyone can clearly see how bad the warrior class ACTUALLY is.
    DONE.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
    Hiro73 likes this.
  4. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Forum Pro

    First of all:
    Secondly:
    If you want to tell me that my breakpoints tables are wrong how about you do some research yourself instead of pulling numbers out of your peach?

    [​IMG]

    But this one is a bit outdated as bosses gain a bit of mitigation on phase 2 and 3. I assume the dmg increase scales similar so ... whatever.

    So even if you actually execute (because of the forbidden tools) Q7 swap perfectly each time even during combat you gain 111% dps which in total is 1833%.

    Now solo you cant have both pets so that's another thing (group play is not an excuse for unbalanced solo, solo play is important as there is nobody else who can cover the balance issues for you). But please explain to me, why would you add pets to the equation while both classes have pets for their attacks? The only thing that COULD be considered is the fact that Karabossa has higher mitigation reduction than Asar (by 8% effective damage increase) but for 3 bosses out of 9 Karabossa (as well as frozen sphere) is literally USELESS and physical damage classes dont have that issue.

    As SW is using LS for fire and ice bosses, FS for poison and neutral bosses (+mortis).

    433 x 4.2 = 1819%
    1819 x 1.058 = 1925% (assuming you hit every LS perfectly which is much MUCH harder than hitting perfect FS, EA or HS)

    1819 x 1.071 = 1948% (ditto)

    410 x 4.2 = 1722%
    1722% x 1.163 = 2003%

    1722% x 1.266 = 2180%

    Now lets add actual mitigation now.

    1925% x 0.4 = 770% dps for vulnerable (fire) bosses with LS with heredur.
    1948% x 0.5 = 974% dps for neutral (ice) bosses with LS with heredur.
    2003% x 0.4 = 801% dps for vulnerable (ice) bosses with FS with karabossa.
    2180% x 0.25 = 545% dps for resistant (ice / mortis) bosses with FS with karabossa.

    So 545 / 770 / 801 / 974 % dps.

    For comparison rangers:
    2415 x 1.071 = 2587%
    2587% x 0.4 = 1035%

    1035% dps without dealing with constant skill changing cause EA is just simply physical and works on every Q.
    In comparison to 770% / 801% / 974% while using multiple pets and skills depending on the situation (alos LS dps will be lower due to LS being easy to offset by a pixel and reducing its damage significantly).

    SW is not OP in fact it never was. Before this entire "SW OP" clown fiesta began long time ago SWs' sphere was absolutely THE WORST skill in the game and EVEN DK was outdamaging SW because FS:
    - Had fixed range and you were forced to position yourself perfectly.
    - Explosion dagame had damage gradient (scaling with distance from target so it never dealt 100% of its damage).
    - Explosion as well as pass-through damage was much lower (50% and 322% instead of 60% and 350%).
    - Had fixed speed meaning attack speed didnt increase its effectiveness (think of bombs).
    - Mana tonics and potions (im sorry but 20s cd potion that was dropping less often than anders are irrelevant) didnt exist.

    The only time period when mage was RELEVANT (not OP, RELEVANT) was when 2h builds started surfacing and premium weapon had x2 dmg from LS and when SW was the only class with AoE mitigation reduction.

    And to sum it up:

    Im not crying, you dont see me advocating for SW buffs - go ahead and dig through my postings history. The only thing Im doing is debunking the pepega statement that is "SW OP NERF" (or even better "muh SM weak") which is probably almost more than 2 years old at this point.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
  5. dwarfmageOP

    dwarfmageOP Forum Apprentice

    Dear Raksharanja you don't need to be so butthurt as in my post i never said mages are OP... I merely tried to compare their DPS to that of a DK. And second it is not about the past.. we live in the now don't you think? So why are you bringing up things from so long ago. It is just a fact that in this game rangers/mages have a sweet spot and dwarfs have their EDIT kissed by the devs while DK's are litterally getting EDIT from bigpoint that's all i am trying to say here.
     
    Last edited by moderator: May 17, 2020
  6. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Forum Pro

    You were the one to deem my tables "scam" which is what I related to. The rest of my message (anything post :SW is not OP in fact it never was.") was directed to elitecrew and bundin (especially elitecrew leading the SW OP division).
    You think I didnt try to bring this up? THEY DONT CARE. There's milion ways to address it but they dont realize that current DK cant exist as tank and dps at the same time. Not with 12 or w/e skills.
     
  7. Mal3ficent

    Mal3ficent Guest

    Dear @dwarfmageOP ,
    let me remind you, use of multiple accounts is prohibited on this forum.

    Cheers
     
  8. DreamWill

    DreamWill Old Hand

    @.RakshaRanja. do you accept some few corrections?
    According to my tests bosses get a relative buff on armor and res, it seems like +30% so when we apply the break-armor first we remove this buff and then we break the armor, the same for the pets during phase 3.

    to be more precise, including recycle on net q7 for rangers is 40% of the time: 40% chance to reset means 40% chance to have +100% time on q7 buff which is equivalent to 100% chance to have +40% time.
    So 2 secs become 2,8 (this why rangers don't have to ask for a 3s q7, we already have it) every 7 --> 2.8 / 7 = 0.4.

    Then you are comparing a q7 ranger with a bm mage ignoring the higher base dmg you have using bm, instead of a q7 mage that can keep the buff active all time (hard doesn't mean impossible); and consider the fact that EA doesn't pierce the mobs like FS does (too often people forget this great advantage) so usually it deals 500% dmg, but (almost always against arachna, often against heredur, mortis, bearach, medusa; I don't say anything for wendigo but you should know what is) mobs intercept the arrows so rangers' dmg is halved if not completely nullified.

    This is to say that the difference between rangers and mages isn't so huge as you want to show.
     
  9. Bundin

    Bundin Junior Expert

    This is fine fine but what is this value???? Where did you get it 6400,9600??? Is that sack of stones or what? Let us know your excel I like such things, but when somebody look at this and on the second column missing that what is that value I will understan your excel let me know it thx.
     
  10. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Forum Pro

    Fair point. I remember using 0.5 for convenience (since these are numbers copied form other place cause I cba retyping same thing all the time). I'll edit my post, ty.

    Difference on BM vs Q7 is minimal (less than 10% - I cant see anybody getting more than 8-9k from BM and it probably is much much less) though you've got a point here as well.

    EDIT: Confirmed 4k from BM weapon which is 5% of the damage (which would translate to 20% base damage per sphere aka 84% unmitigated dps).

    Its not hard to keep the buff at all times when you play with q7. Its hard when you have to swap and on top of that the difference is minimal as well (when executed perfectly). Also its a bug and it was attempted to be fixed so Im not gonna count something that is clearly unwanted in the game. It should be removed not considered.

    Arrow being blocked? Pity.
    How about LS that you cant even properly aim with because its snapped to closest mob that you dont even hover your mouse over? Its fun. And as mage you have to actually predict bosses pathing because both FS and LS are ground targeted unlike EA which is just a projectile you have to aim in the general direction of the boss.

    Wendigo was poorly designed, clearly rushed and not tested (well) enough. The other bosses are absolutely "fine". Rangers can slow bosses while solo as well and it isnt much less than singularity + frost combined is.

    Adds should not be an issue for ranger as well. If they are then its on you - you expect mages to sit on boss and you as a much tankier ranger should be able to do the same (whoever is using karabossa instead of q8 is not a ranger but a meme glass cannon).

    If you compare mage on vulnerable vs ranger then sure its JUST 1022% vs 1035% - now please compare mage on neutral or resistant and please repeat with a straight face how the difference "isnt so huge" because there's only 2 poison bosses.

    Playing with LS on herald is :mad::mad::mad:, playing with BOTH LS and FS on mortis, khalys or sigris is :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:.
    Do rangers deal half of their damage to any boss just because they're rangers? No, they dont.

    The difference isnt THAT big when you compare vulnerable bosses vs ranger's dmg everywhere. Try using neutral or resistant numbers (or just consider that khalys is absolute nightmare because of her aura).

    And imagine that dwarves are dealing x3 the mage damage.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  11. DreamWill

    DreamWill Old Hand

    true if u look only the maximal dmg, but consider the minimal dmg too: the difference on avg dmg is higher, it's almost half q7 buff, indeed bm rangers and q7 rangers are equal, the difference is only in the pots used.

    i'm not talking about the q7 swap but the real q7 mage: consider that +30% on dps almost all the time if you want to consider the same boost on rangers for half time and repeat the comparation in this way.

    1035% was from q7 active 50% time not 40%: if I correct your calculations in this way:
    2.52 * 500 + 1.68 * 500 * 1.3 = 2352%
    2352% * 1.071 = 2519%
    2519 * 0.4 = 1007%

    So against vulnerable bosses mages are better as it should be.
    And now increase mages' dps from q7 (or the base higher base dmg on bm, of course not both) and the difference become lower even against others, btw I can't neglect that physical dmg is way better


    this is exactly the reason mages need singularity and all their slowing effects plus guardian to kill bosses; and net isn't as much different than FS, so we have th same problems…
    is LS like smash with damage gradient? Increasing its AoE effect was an idea I had to improve it
    I can imagine (net is the same as said above), why even sigri? He is static… For both higher lighting and ice res? I thought heredur was worse to aim; and yes I know your fire skills are one more stupid than the other.

    lack of mobility?

    if you talk about movement speed you are right, about the attack speed even using q8 freezing + Death sweep you get a similar effect, but weaker than singu (singu in the middle, at the edge isn't so strong)
    here is the greatest difference: rangers haven't the same crowd control mages have, and a +10% hp is meaningless when we get 80k dmg per hit if not more; when ppl say "SW op nerf them" is for this combo singu + guardian and freezing that make them good "tanks" surely better than rangers, that answer with good mobility and great elusion, but dodging = running = not hitting = real dps is lower than theoretical. And yes of course I'm using q8 (and q5 shoulders) but only the torso (maybe I was one of the first rangers with it, never used kara), not the whole set, I am still undecided on the choice of the ado :p


    I'm not here to say the opposite :)


    I hope new essences (if they aren't a meme, like I think they are) could help you to solve some of these problems
     
  12. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Forum Pro

    Oh right, sorry - big faux pas on my side. Though ... I've seen multiple videos with rangers killing arachna or medusa faster than SW (not by a longshot, definitely but still) due to not wasting time on casting singu + guardian (since everything RA needs is built into EA and Q7 components and mitigation reduction doesnt scale unlike SWs').

    Fair point.

    I know that both have it but never bothered to test how much the scale with range. For LS its 100-333 and it scales very harsh because only few pixels away from the center and you're dealing 133% instead of 333%. +100% for each detonation from 5 pts. perk is also insanely delayed and bosses like heredur and herald quite easily can move out of it reducing damage output even lower.

    Exactly. You deal half of your damage no matter what you choose. Fireball is so garbage its outdamaged by both LS with heredur and FS on karabossa respectively.
    Mana reduction aura. Not having "spam your ability without cost" on khalys is infuriating. Sure you need only 130 mana (15% reduction + 13 from base regeneration) and spam pots off cooldown but who really wants to click pot every second? Its very inconvenient and infuriating.

    That's what I meant. The difference is noticeable (since its 50+15 [65] vs 25+15 [40]) but it really is doable to facetank the boss with the adrenaline / blade dance mobility.

    This is all fair - in all honesty treant should have aggro as well (and both treant and wolves should have their hp boosted byt alot actually).

    They wont - in fact they are boosting other classes cause they are getting the source of elemental damage which they didnt have before effectively increasing the gap. On top of that these essences multiply the gap between the classes because they add % skill damge (so when the difference is 1000% dps then on red elemental ess it will be 4000%).
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
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