Suggestion FIX the HUGE ess-imbalance: Nice, neat and FAIR:

Discussion in 'Creative Corner' started by Theusen, Jul 7, 2020.

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  1. Theusen

    Theusen Padavan

    Yeah I know that BP will never reads this, but this thing w DKs and especially SMs using so little ess compared 2 RAs and SWs is driving those 2 classes 2 be WAY weaker, than they allrdy are...

    Soooo 2 fix that, and actually do some rebalancing without making huge programming changes, I am making this OBVIOUS suggestion in order 2 resolute this:

    Instead of having essences-cost on different skills, just make essence-consumption something that is timed! This way there will be no imbalance with some classes being able 2 do allmost maximum DPS at a fraction of what other classes can do!

    Here goes: Whenever U put on an ess outside of the hub in the active ess-slot, it will now be consumed at say... 3ess/sec! And just 2 prevent abuse, changing the active ess has a 30 sec cooldown!

    This way all classes are balanced in ess-use, and the HUGE problem w SMs being able to allwayz have TONS of red magical ess, while both SWs and RAs struggle 2 just have green ess 4 most important fights is owa!

    ...Oh yeah and bonuses for black ess-set changes:
    (3) Essence-consumption is reduced by 40%
    (5) Essence-consumption is reduced by 55%

    So there we go! A HUGE IMBALANCE between classes has FINALLY been fixed after 10 years! (Im not saying that this will fix all the problems this game has, but this 1 simple change will actually make this game WAY more FAIR 4 ALL)

    PS: If U are reading this and U are a BP-DEV: The word "fair" means that every1 is playing on the same terms and no class is being neglected! Bringing this terminology in2 DSO could mean that players will start giving more positive feedback!

    PPS: "Positive feedback" is when people dont automatically hate U guys for evrything U do! Who knows some may even grow enough respect 4 U, that they will start 2 reccommend DSO 2 their friends...

    PPPS: Yeah sorry! I know! Too many new words right now... I guess U will have 2 google terms like "friends" and "respect" etc... ;):p:rolleyes:
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
    adelmn2 likes this.
  2. Akageshi

    Akageshi Forum Duke

    Have you ever seen the videos in which people are directly comparing the time that it takes for all 4 classes to clear a dungeon? Clearly SM is the fastest and DK is the slowest, mainly at the boss, and the difference is counted in minutes, not seconds.
    Your suggestion would drain DKs Sahara dry.

    Moreover, what about lower level or weak max level characters? It takes ages for them to clear even painful. Your idea would favor super strong characters that clear infernals in no time and that have tons of ess anyway, and it would hurt weak characters that need ages to clear anything and are not stocked up on ess at all.

    Also, you're suggesting a mechanic for essences that basically turns them into a damage buff. So we could as well just entirely ditch essences and replace them with a new kind of damage buff? - You have a sip and you get a +x% dmg for 30 secs... That's how your new ess mechanic works, basically, no?

    I'm not necessarily for the status quo. But I'm afraid your solution is problematic. .. Or maybe I just don't know the game very well (I admit that).
  3. dkarl

    dkarl Forum Duke

    30 second cool-down to change essence is s show-stopper for me. Conserving higher value essence by only switching mid-dungeon (even mid-battle with a mixed mob) when I encounter, e.g., a Champion mob is second-nature; as a still growing Lvl55 toon, only now cautiously attempting Infernal 2 SNDs, a 30-second delay to switch from white to green (or green to blue, etc.) would result in a huge uptick in my deaths. Unless you're asking me to run away from a particularly nasty mob and hide for 30 seconds before engaging?


    Find another solution.
  4. Theusen

    Theusen Padavan

    Im not saying that my solution is the answer 2 evrything! All I did was:
    *Identify a MAJOR imbalance in the game
    *Describe that imbalance
    and then...
    *Propose a solution that would be fair across the board

    I do thank U guys for the feedback, but maybe next time chime in on 1 of these 3 points, instead of just going NOPE?
    -Yap I have seen those vids! They are not showing/comparing classes at the same stage of development! -They basically fake!
    -Yes weak chars are weak! Hows that an argument against my proposal? And how would this favour strong chars?
    -Yes new players are not stocked up on ess! Again: I PHAIL 2 C where this repetetive argument negates my proposal?
    -Yep this is basically a damagebuff as ess HAVE ALLWAYZ been! DUH! -Again: Where are Ur arguments! PLS gimme examples!
    -U say my solution as problematic! -That might very well be the case, but but U mind actually describing situations where that happends, cuz all I saw from U was a bunch o hollow arguments w no substance!

    -If U actually mind spending 90 ess B4 U can switch it off 2 prevent abuse, then I dont have words...
    -What U are saying is I should find another solution, cuz U SM perhaps? Mmmm? Cuz ONLY SMs can walk away from that fight U Urself described just now and having used less than 90 ess! BUSTED! :p:D:p
  5. dkarl

    dkarl Forum Duke

    I play primarily SM and RA, though I do have a DK and a SW.

    You're talking about end-game boss clearing times, right? And your solution is to limit my ability as a weak level-cap toon or a mid-game toon or a beginner toon from 1) conserving my essence as I see fit in order to have something stockpiled when I finally get to true end-game status, 2) having the option to play at a difficulty level which is a stretch for my toon by being able to switch to a more powerful essence when confronted by a mob that's too strong for my toon on the weaker essence.

    You're essentially forcing me to use higher level essence as a default, because if I don't have it equipped when a Champion shows up, I won't be able to survive long enough to kill it. You want me to burn up my supply of essence.

    Not a huge problem for you, as you can replace it by farming for gold, essence, andermant on higher levels which will remain out of reach by my toon for possibly years.

    On the levels I typically play (Normal or Painful for most of my toons, maybe Excruciating for an alt-toon SM; only my main SM has only recently been able to be semi-confident on Infernal 1 SND [Fatal or lower for Parallel World], and burn through HP pots and Spirit Guards on Inf2), green essence occasionally drops, blue essence will drop once or twice a week, and purple essence … I think I've seen that three times since the essence nerf. (Yes the main SM gets more frequent green essence but blue and purple drops are still rare to non-existent). You want to set me back another year?

    You want "balance" and "fairness" at the end-game, but you'll be ruining the chance of lower level toons … of all character types … to survive long enough to get to where you are.
  6. Theusen

    Theusen Padavan

    LooooL U need 2 read my posts better! That SMchar U are trying 2 protect is PRECISELY THE MAINPROBLEM here!!!
    -if U do play all 4 chars as U boldly claim, U would have noticed by now not not only are SMs OP A F compared 2 any other classes, but their essence consumption is also like 1/10th of what the other classes uses in similar fights at a similar stage in the development!

    So lets look at the the evidence, now provided with U as well as myself here:
    SMs ATM can:
    *kill bosses about 2- 3 times as easy as any other class in solofights
    *use about 7-10 times less essence while doing bossfights

    And U dont think its the least bit unfair we have had this HUGE imbalance between classes 4 YEARS ON END now?
    So not only does SMs do FAR more DMG, but the can actually maintain a large stockpile of essence, cuz they usually get more essence in drops than they are able 2 use, unlike any other class?

    I want some FAIRNESS introduced in DSO and U are basically against my solution 2 the ess-part of that very problem, cuz U want the people that plays only 1 char thats not SM 2 continue 2 suffer the same way they have done 4 YEARS??? cmon...
  7. dkarl

    dkarl Forum Duke

    Read my post again.

    I didn't claim to be an expert in any character class, but I do essence-switch on all of my toons, RA, SM, SW & DK.

    I don't consider even my best toon strong enough to farm Parallel Worlds; so, no, I can't from personal experience directly confirm or deny your assertion that two classes (SM & SW) are faster and/or more efficient at PW Inf7 boss-farming than the other two classes (DK & RA).

    I'll leave that argument up to you and other end-gamers. If you all decide it's necessary for all 4 characters to have the exact same capabilities, then sure, find a solution that balances out the end-gamer experience. Just don't ruin my experience and discourage other lower-level toons and new players from sticking with the game.

    (On the other hand, despite that fact that I am exclusively a solo player, shouldn't we seek solutions that create better synergy between the classes again, to promote mixed-class group play? Sorry; I said I'd leave that discussion up to the true end-gamers. :))
  8. Theusen

    Theusen Padavan

    LoL I dont need 2 read Ur post(s) again; they are misdirecting and severely lacking arguments as is...
    And I also see Ur feeble attempts 2 turn this in2 an argument between new players and endgamers, just 2 murk up the waters on a neat and simple solution... ;) -But this discussion is NOT between new players and endgamers... -FAR from it!

    -So lets just stop this nonsence of Urs by aknowleging that Ur a soloplayer in an MMORPG, and since all Ur arguments are just for soloplayers they dont belong in this tread! :rolleyes:

    The problem I am describing happends when people are playing with each other!!!
    I KNOW its not happening 2 U dkarl, cuz U just wanna play w U! (I really dont know what would be a good solution for U dkarl... Maybe ask BP 2 make a server frozen at r236, where in-game-chat, guilds and grpplay has been disabled 2 completely prevent players on that server from communicating?)
    -but the people comming here 2 play this MMORPG as a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, do have this problem, on a daily basis, whether they new here or has been here for years!

    SMs basically takes off right from the start, and all the other classes will ever see from those SMs again is when SMs decends once in a blue moon and decides 2 gracefully help out those poor RAs, SWs and DKs who is struggeling AF!

    And with the development this last year or so in this game, where U NEED ESSENCE IN 90% OF ALL EVENTS, the present situation NEEDS 2 be resolved for all non-antisocial people who does NOT play alone w themselves!:eek::cool::D
  9. sargon234

    sargon234 Commander of the Forum

    How about making essence drop actually common and essence drop stacks bigger and scale with difficulty as they were years ago?
    Simple easy fix to this issue.
    gbit and JohnWick like this.
  10. Theusen

    Theusen Padavan

    OK how is this a "fix" in any way shape or form?
  11. kuwabaraz

    kuwabaraz Forum Duke

    In reality the consumption of essences is linked to the damage of the class. Alone and not in a group because too many variables, according to widespread opinion, can also help YouTube videos, they are not the absolute truth but they come close to it.

    The dwarf deals damage greater than a Dk 2-3 times, hunts 2 times and the magician depends on the resistances of the bosses which varies from 2 times the damage to almost equal to a little less. So consumption follows more or less this line. A dwarf will consume far fewer essences including hunting and the mage depends on the abilities and resistances of the bosses and mobs.

    You want to balance the essence consumption of the classes I fully agree with the 2h. We exclude the tank that causes the development has been replaced by various skills and I do not take it into account for the consumption of essences as it is a failure of the development of the BP.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
    DBS-Flamelurker and gbit like this.
  12. NSDT-returns

    NSDT-returns Someday Author

    Your solution to the essence problem is overall pretty bad. Those are not essences anymore just a buff.
    Here a few highlights why a buff system is a terrible idea.

    It worsens the problem in solo farming:
    Dwarves will kill boss twice or 3 times as fast so will still consume less essence while warriors will be in even bigger pain than before since they are the slower ones.
    => dwarves will rather play in only dwarves groups than pay loads of essences to get the other classes bonuses (good luck for warriors to find a group in essence needing difficulties)

    Low damage toons will suffer a lot from it, for example:
    I have 3 attack speed = I send 6 sphere for 3 essence
    I have 1 attack speed = I send 2 sphere for 3 essence
    => triple the consumption of essences

    It would also highly favorise people using resources potions (SW, rangers to a certain extent)
    => another nerf for warriors and low dmg players

    I can only see two ways of balancing the essence problem:
    1/ to adjust competences essence costs
    (tripling dwarves turret cost for example, reducing the cost of sphere and explosive arrow by 1 ....)
    2/ an altar system at bosses where wou can choose which essence you will use and pay a certain amount of essences depending on difficulty, you keep the essence buff for the whole boss fight even if you die.

    => Solution 1 would be the obvious way to go since it doesn't denaturate the concept of essences and works in both bosses and maps, however they would need to play their game and estimate dps and essence costs of all classes at various stages of strength / various builds ... which cost time and needs patient people knowing the game (seeing the current 1 strong build for each class with huge differences in dps between classes, I don't think BP has people able to balance)

    There some people on this forum who did a lot of dps calculations for different classes and would probably be very happy to do the dps maths for different stage of strength, q7 / q4 / bm builds, maps or boss farming. However it would be pointless since BP doesn't listen to us (look at war being pve bullied for ages while all they need are a few percentage changes in some spell values which could be done in a few minutes coding)
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
    ΣMiwel and couda22 like this.
  13. sargon234

    sargon234 Commander of the Forum

    Because we would be swimming in essences, therefore making essence consumption irrelevant.

    This is the same problem they created when they lowered realm fragments drop, which can be easily fixed by restoring the drop rates as they were in the past.
    ΣMiwel and TwiliShadow like this.
  14. TwiliShadow

    TwiliShadow Count Count

    In battle, as a Spell Weaver, I burn on average 10 essence per second. 30 second is approximately 300 essence spent. A two minute battle is 1200 essence. A 30 minute solo Boss (high level) battle costs 18000 essence.

    I don't do solo high levels (or carry new 55's, as that increases the boss health more than they are contributing) because I, frankly, can't afford it.

    The essence drops (above white) need to be increase, both in number of drops and count per drop. 17x orange essence per drop is a joke. And higher levels need to drop, in scales, higher levels of essence in higher quantities. Infernal levels should never drop white essence.
    ΣMiwel likes this.
  15. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Ambassador

    I, frankly, disagree. Problems go way deeper.

    Honestly, I think that the essence consumption system has to be reworked. Not the whole essence system, like OP suggests, but just the consumption system. You can balance out the three classes pretty well essence-wise. Eg. int(sqrt(maxTargetsHit))*(dmgPercentage/100%). The dwarf stays problematic however. In the map, dwarfs are frequently removing their turrets before they run out. In the bosses, turrets often go on until they run out. They you'd need some complex essence retrieving system on interrupted turret, which would probably be exploitable. That's why the solution is to make the essences stop being that much of a problem in themselves... and a bit tinkering with essence costs - not sure if tripling any essence costs counts as a bit tinkering.
    sargon234 likes this.
  16. sargon234

    sargon234 Commander of the Forum

    I think higher essence drop rates in high difficulties and stacks that scale with difficulty are the solution, we'll be swimming in essences, it is easy to implement.

    Do you remember that 1k essence drop stacks from minibosses in fatal, back when level 50 was max level? I do.

    Let's bring back this feature.
    Easy, simple.

    Also, add an essence bag so more inventory space can be saved.
  17. NSDT-returns

    NSDT-returns Someday Author

    It would be better for everyone but still balances nothing (we stay with the issue that some classes consume less than other for the same dmg output=>more runs with same of essences for them).
    A dwarf with 10k essence will still do twice as many bosses with those essences compared to other classes.

    Only way it "balances" is if we get so many essences we can use red essence for every boss fight since we'd get more essences than we consume. I feel it would be stupid because it makes essences pointless (big essences have to be something you choose to use, not something you can perma use)

    Definitely something we need and have been asking for since ages.
  18. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    wow, really wow
    i mean one would expect someone with your experience in dso to atleast have even half a clue of what base damage is
    did you stop playing dso for 5 years or something?
    dks and mecs?
    I mean really
    firstly yes mecs are strong, insanely strong, but so are mages and rangers
    as for dks tanks havent been a thing for over 3 years so I dont know where you get your essence consumption calculations
    but I will break damage per second according to base skill damage down for you in a jiffy

    dk 240% base per hit on smash using q7 a dk does 6 smashes a second @ 3 essence per hit x 6 hits = 18 essence per second with q7 coming in at 1440% base per second on those 18 essences

    mages doing frozen sphere 60% base then it explodes at 350% base coming in at 410% base per hit x4 @ 3.637 = 1640% base per second at an essence cost of 4 = 4x4 = 16 essence per second

    rangers EA 475% base per explosive arrow @ 4 arrows per second <- this excludes the fact that ea has built in armor break so the true amount of base per second is unimaginably high
    = 1950% base per second @ 5 essences per hit = 20 essences

    heavy shot well its kinda tricky because without cooldown it is a 33 frame skill
    however lets talk q7
    it basically makes hs a 16.5 frame skill allowing mecs to do 6 hs per second on 3.882
    300% base if the 250% skill dmg is increased by 20% and 400% base if you count the final blow bonus
    but lets stick to 300% base nvm the fact that the q7 buff opening skill micro rocket breaks armor
    mecs do 1800% to 2400% base per second on heavy shot during q7 at a cost of 18 essence per second

    so cost per second on boss dps = this
    dks 18 for 1440% base per second
    mages 16 essence per second for 1640% base per second
    mecs at a cost of 18 for 1800 - 2400% base per second
    andd rangers at a cost of 20 essence per second for 1950% base per second

    Now please I dont know where you got your facts
    who told them to you is obviously a conspiracy theorist and therefore should take on a new hobby like horse riding or something

    bear in mind the whole new elemental essences will further cause a dps imbalance
    which is why we have mages killing idk dragan this fast
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
    raider likes this.
  19. blackassam

    blackassam Forum Expert

    It is nice calculations but it cannot be completely based on terms of consumption, because of elemental resistence caming into play, that you didn't take into consideration for SF. This value will be very variable depending on which boss they will be fighting. With regard of other classes, they basically fight against armour, where the values for the boss are the same, only with a small exceptions.

    It would also change the calculations for the use of pets, which were also not taken into account.Where is the percentage difference between puppets for armor and elemental resistance.

    The cards shuffled even more as a new type of elementary essence entered.

    I have taken the liberty of republishing these tables for this topic and another constructive debate.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020

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