Suggestion Fixing DK Skills (& Wisdom) !

Discussion in 'Creative Corner' started by raider, Sep 1, 2020.

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  1. raider

    raider Forum Pro

    I know there are some changes coming for DKs with the "Nex expansion" but 1st, it is at least 2-3 months away; and 2nd, it would be better to listen to the people who actually plays the game/DKs.

    Oh and, before start, I will say that;
    Sets should be adjusted to Skills, not the other way around.

    Also, I'm just giving PvE values. They could make different values for PvP.

    First, a NEW SKILL:
    • Fiery Spear
      Throw a Spear that deals %140 fire damage to a target within 2 to 10 meters, on a 1.5 meter radius basis.
      Cooldown: 8 seconds, Rage cost: 30, Essence cost: 3, Required Level: 45

      > Burn Through (2 pts)
      Spear will go through the targets (within 10 meters) dealing %20 more damage

      > Hot Rod (3 pts)
      Any hit enemies will suffer %40 armor debuff

      > Sonic-wave (5 pts)
      Spear will reach up to 15 meters, damaging and silencing targets for 3 seconds (including Bosses) within 2.5 meter radius

    • Rage Attack
      > Incite upgrade: +0.5 Second Duration to active Skills along with the current Effect, per Critical Hit

    • Smash
      %250 (Default) Base Damage instead of %200.
      > Merciful Rageful Blow: +5 Rage per Critical hit (could be useful against Bosses)
      > Tit for Tat: Stacked up to 4 times & Lasts for 3 seconds

    • Rageful Swing
      > Little Strokes: +1 rage per successful hit
      > Powerful Swing: Hit Enemies Deal %25 less Damage
      > Bloody Cuts Fire: Deals %50 of your base Damage as Fire Damage for 5 seconds

    • Bloody Wild Swing
      Deals %90 of your base Damage and causes %50 bleed
      > Deep Cuts: Increases the Bleed damage by %20 instead of 10 & -%30 Attack speed (Keep the other bonuses)

      Group Effect: %1 Hp of Group members restored, per Critical Hit

    • Rage Jump
      12 meters jump, Landing deals %150 Damage within a 5 meter radius, 10 seconds Cooldown
      > Toughening Impact: Lasts for 4 seconds
      > Deep Impact: Lasts for 4 seconds

    • Ground Breaker
      Deals %125 Damage to all Enemies on the way within a 5 meter radius
      > Splitting Earth: Explosion deals %200 fire Damage to all Enemies within a 5 meter radius

    • Furious Battle Cry
      25 seconds cooldown
      > Build Anger: +20 more rage & 5 Rage per second, lasts for 5 seconds
      > Battle Armor: +0.03 Block strength per enemy within 10 meters & +%6 Armor & Resistance per enemy if didn't wield a Shield within last 10 secs.

    • Iron Brow
      Deals %100 Damage up to 3 enemies in front of you
      > Headhunter: Every enemy within 3 meters will suffer the Debuff, if there were a Critical Hit or Final Blow in last 5 seconds (by any Skill) & if Iron Brow caused a Critical Hit or Final Blow

    • Charge
      Deals %125 Damage
      > Recharge: Reduces Cooldowns by %3, per hit

    • Mighty Wild Swing
      Deals %240 Damage & causes %60 Bleed , 2 secs cooldown

    • Dragon Hide
      45 seconds cooldown, lasts 9 seconds
      > Pact of the Dragon: Frees you from Stuns, Debuffs, including Damage over time effects with NO exceptions
      > Golden Scales: Immunity to Stuns & Debuffs (Maybe thats how it already is but no info for Stuns)

    • Banner of War
      "Battle frenzy" will make you immune to Stuns (Along with current bonus)
      > Intimidate: -%25 Attack speed for all enemies within arena (Replace movement speed debuff)
      > Mighty Banner of War: Deals %50 Fire damage to all enemies
      > Law of the Strong: +1% more Critical Damage per killed enemy (can be stacked 15 times) , along with the current effect.
    I won't bother with the last 2 skills as they are practically useless and they are being reworked anyhow afaik.

    > But imo, a skill or two should spawn Guardians/Companions/Squires of the Knight, or, a "friendly" Dragon even, specialising on finding the weaknesses of opponents/making them

    As for generic Wisdom trees of all Classes..
    Defensive talents of DKs should be empowered slightly. At least for the 1st levels.

    Advantages of 1-Handed/Hp builds should be increased (except, there is no Advantage at all now)

    Also.. Vivacious vitality should provide more Hp Regen per second, depending on Hp.
    Same for Hangman's pride. Otherwise they are utterly useless.

    Last but not least, "Group Momentum" talents of DK Group bonuses could use a rework or two.

    Ps. I will Edit this post a lot of times.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
    jackoneill1976 likes this.
  2. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    they will never do this xD
    its pretty OP but let me put it plainly for you
    with rage attack at 3.333 attacks per second you do 5 rage attacks per second
    so now, you increase active skill duration lets say ie dragon hide you do 80% crit that means 4 out of 5 hits per second could increase dragon hide duration
    thats 4 seconds increase per second while decreasing its active cooldown per crit at the same time, this = infinite dragon hide
    then again dragon hide is such a joke at 11k more armor and resist having it up 100% of the time wont even make a difference
    firstly 220% base so iow 2nd skill with all your might will make it 264% base
    thats weak to say the least
    1 more rage than merciful blow? nah
    tit for tat is meh too, youre not using the q7 set yet
    with your attack speed on 2.92 <- and thats not high at all as max is 4.00
    with q7 you will do 6 smashes a second on that speed
    once again smash would barely make a dent in a boss with these stats boosts
    dks need a 300% base skill on smash 20% would make it 360% base which is still 50% lower in base than even mages
    so on your smash ideas as a dk I say no no no no
    well firstly the one thing that separates rageful swing from rage attack is that rage attack has cooldown on crits
    so this makes rageful swing a non viable skill and kills the bearach sets bonuses
    and how do you wish to get to a enemy to hit it with its "magic" attack if it has range?
    bloody fire as you put it would kill the rageful swing bonus of q4 in its tracks
    you could rather do this
    powerful swing: increases rageful swing damage by 50%
    then bloody cuts deals 75% of your base damage as bleed damage per second for 4 seconds
    then you can have a set that makes the bleed fire damage and let it deal 100% of your base as fire damage per second for 4 seconds
    and even as OP as that sounds, its 5 rs per second on 3.333 and 100% base = 600% base per second <- baaad
    this is meh

    r u even a dk?
    I would say 100% base
    bloody rage: per crit 2 rage and 0.5 seconds cooldown of active skills cooldowns
    deeps cuts
    damage 505 and bleed debuff by 25%
    slow debuff ofc too <- as a dk I dont even notice the slow debuff
    maybe let the slow debuff stack up to 3-4 times
    and ofc no cooldown on mws making it a 15 frame skill allowing a dk to do it 5 times per second on 3.333
    % hp per hit? maybe due to inf 6 and 7 <- i7 requires you to have 120k crit

    firstly landing dealing 150% base to all enemies in 5 meter radius isnt bad
    ok scratch quick landing
    replace it with shattering landing
    shattering landing: stuns all enemies within a 5 meter radius for 4 seconds (pvp 2 seconds)
    change the 25% speed from deep impact to 25% damage for 5 seconds
    idk tbh maybe let the devs do something with gb
    decrease its cooldown to 5-7 seconds

    well banner of war is being reworked too
    anyways I will comment no further on your ideas as you can see your expectations are a little too low for the amount of battering a dk takes in pve

    needs to be a zero cooldown 20 frame skill, then as for base it can stay the same

    as for wisdom
    on top of defenses it has been repeatedly requested that dk skill damage and dk skill attack speed be increased too
    and yes we need a looot of defenses
    and always remember
    if a ranged player tells you that you have more hp, well firstly you have mages now with 201k hp and they facetank inf4 bosses
    secondly tell them you have something better than more hp, its called range, on top of that they had to have minimum 150% more damage in their skills
    I mean come on...
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  3. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Ambassador

    Not really. You can't increase it past its default duration, that is 8 seconds. That's how it is with prolonging the Iron Dwarfs duration by kills. You can't get past 12 seconds there, so you have to count the kills.

    Anyways... looks like a nerf to me.

    No, DKs' higher survivability has to be made worth it again in PvE.


    It'd be too OP. You do realise the value can be increased in two ways, one working in solo play too?

    Yet another stun? Are you crazy man?

    Too complicated. It should just be replaced with another useful talent.

    Won't happen, too complicated. Also unnecessary.

    No bleed on that skill please.

    Both are already there, if they aren't it's a bug. And there are bugs (some effects are exempt that shouldn't be or the other way around), so I wouldn't be surprised.

    Rather critical hit rate, at 2% per stack perhaps.

    Actually, the only change that 1h need in Wisdom is the "handful of resources" talent, which is utterly useless and should be replaced/improved.

    Things I didn't mention are generally fine.
  4. wavi

    wavi Junior Expert

    the warrior only needs more time in the armor break, because the ability of the head is for 1 enemy and it is very little time. maybe if they added armor break to the banner ability (throughout its range), that would be a very good hit.
    raider likes this.
  5. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    And show me this higher survivability please...
    you guys have all the defenses we have + range
    and like I said theres a mage in my guild with 201k hp without any buffs or group effects
    and yes I asked him he has 5.00 critical damage on top of that.
    we need to be able to kill faster
    we need to be able to solo maps

    raider likes this.
  6. Dzungla

    Dzungla Forum Expert

    Don't get me wrong but Beta + 50 lvl experience ( I read on daily base everything but don't have too much time to write(I am more player that writer)) just ain't ain't enough for suggesting things of that importance .

    I am not saying that any suggestion isn't good just, I would more like that you reach the cap and then gear up for testing and after that ... maybe .

    Few days ago I had an idea - giving you advice to read @_Baragain_ post about 2h skills play, which skills to use etc. but I gave up!

    I respect a level of Your hype but in common ppl slang I have to say - You talk too much :D ;) (play more).

    But well, I hate to be a party breaker so - what dk needs is - armor break in some skill's base value( (without pts, rage att for example) melee class, must reach the opponent, if you spend rage to brake it, hardly some rage will left after you do it like in Iron brow case) and base dmg upgrade not necessary higher, maybe some elemental addition to be competitive in (broken) pvp and bosses kills with other classes.

    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  7. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    he does seem quite new to 55 yes, kudos on the enthusiasm though
  8. raider

    raider Forum Pro

    Like I said
    So maybe it's better such things coming from a person who ain't "corrupted" by OP Set bonuses just yet?
    Besides, I don't see such (detailed) thread.

    I mean.. DPS is issue, survivability is big issue, in all ways at a big disadvantage against other classes etc no matter what the set.
    I kept values a bit low because when you buff everything, it adds up. I don't want OP'ness.

    I do play/observe/read more than I write here though, you can trust me on that.

    I will answer the other post(s) in detail later.
    I did updated the OP a bit to avoid misunderstandings though.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  9. raider

    raider Forum Pro

    Well, gotta start from somewhere :D

    Merciful blow works on a "Final Blow".. which makes it.. pointless to have (since there are better things)
    What I suggest doesn't.

    Well no sht that it's meh. It will be slightly better like this tho.
    Would it? How far it goes? %20-25? That is if anyone would max it.

    Could as well increase its base value instead..

    Besides, ain't the increases disabled when no group member is nearby?
    Honestly idk how exactly it works right now but rather pointless to have as there are better things practically.
    Well "Outburst" already has something like that but I don't mind really..
    With what for example?

    On a side note.. 150 pts "Group Momentum" talents are meh as well..
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  10. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    Well before wanting or not wanting Opness, you have to understand the mechanics behind the mobs, the skill damage, the metas too.
    Firstly mobs and bosses has variable armor
    this means lets say ie my build, I go to the great desert on the snakes I do 400k crits on i3 but against the beetle in the desert I do 150k crits during q7 buff without armor break
    so taking variable armor into account, you have to understand that mobs hp, armor, resist, their damage and their crit scales with higher diffculties.
    when taking these into account you have to understand that unlike other classes you take a lot more direct hits.
    this in itself is quite harsh because the increased amount of hp a dk has over other classes is rendered useless, they still have range, you have nothing
    mobs armor for example that scales wiith infernals means lets say a mob on infernal 7 has 80% armor, he has 80 000 armor
    you have to be able to penetrate that <- often without amor break as armor break is a seperate skill
    imho a good thing would be if ie ground breaker had armor break, this would allow for heck even non q7 dks to stand a chance and deal damage.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  11. raider

    raider Forum Pro

    Was I saying something different? :p

    But well, if you saying the slight bonuses I suggested could be rendered useless in practice.. Then sure.

    In any case they are suggestions (as I didn't see such detailed thread on what to do) and just a starting point :)
    I didn't really expect to fix everything in an hour anyway..

    I forgot to mention the spawning a Guardian or two suggestion though.
    Where is the companions of a Knight? Or his/her friendly "Dragon" ? Hm?

    Maybe some "specialists" finding the "weak points" of the opponents? Or burning their Armor?
    Yea, this is why Iron Brow needs improvement.. Or.. We need some other alternative skill/talent.

    Also where is the Physical advantages dammit? Magic Damage is always more advantageous by the looks of it?
    Although, Rangers solo'ing I3s quite easily as well.. But they do have more Damage on Skills and lots of Buffs/Debuffs.

    Believe we need more "Fire" damage.

    Ps. I'm still updating OP time to time.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  12. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    I have been fighting about dks weakness since February 2018
    Every day, everywhere I can. main reason being a non q7 dk in dso is not even a dk at all its a punching bag
    I sheerly and utterly refused to use q7 as a dk.
    After 2 years of mockery, critisism and a lot of negative comments bullying and more, I am finally on Q7 too.

    But yes the moment I felt my dk feel weaker was Feb 2018.

    People has blamed my choice of sets, my latency, my playstyle, even my stats, just to say dks are not weak.

    So ya, now I do play with q7, and theres nothing special about my dk, zilch zero nada nothing, its just another stats build like every other
    But ya, I mean I moved servers thats a hard knock
    In the end though whether you put in 40 hours sessions which ive done a few times this year, and whether you put in 20 hours sessions, which I do almost every weekend.
    Its basically just playing to collect stats, thats all dso is.
    raider likes this.
  13. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Ambassador

    Outburst one is almost OP, and charge's one is useful too. Take a look at ranger's momenti: only one is useful. Or at the 3 Group Effects (increasable) of mage: all 3 useless (mage has useful momenti though).

    Well, some "ghosts" are going to spawn after using the banner... probably an unlockable skill, maybe in wisdom.

    If it isn't visible, it's not DK's problem. It lies in 30% more hp than mage and dwarf (ranger has 10% more than those) and in very good healing in both PvE and PvP.

    And what makes you take those hits exactly? I get dwarf, but mage and ranger are forced to approach bosses directly, and bosses are where any problems are truly visible in this game.

    Attack speed dependant FotD. Here you go. It's already fire damage, and lots of it. If more is needed, make it stack.

    And you're doing it wrong all the time. Balancing a game is not only a thing of percentages. Anyways, let's see what the CE brings.
  14. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    yeah trump that with range the other 3 classes has it
    directly as in within arms length of a whole mob I assume
    Yes lets see what CE brings

    Noted, but thats a bit too much and sorry for the confusion, mighta misread that the firs time.
    much rather making 7 rage when dealing critical damage instead of per crit
    the reason is smash has a tiny aoe meaning you crit 5 mobs its 7*5 = 35 rage.
    The devs will never do that Imo
    thats like infinite smashes.
    Always remember that resource cost reduction works as much as resource generation works too.
    so for x amount of resources generated if you produce y amount of resources per crit that leads to too much and an imbalance.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
    raider likes this.
  15. Nostalgiac

    Nostalgiac Advanced

    I agree with this. Increased HP means nothing when you take much more damage. And, DKs are further penalized by having lower DPS. The solution would be to have increased skill damage on top of increased HP. I would also suggest to incorporate more armor breaks (of varied effectiveness) for different skills, at least in PvE, and rework iron brow. Also, more bleeding/slowing effects.

    For example, critical hit with smash could decrease enemy armor and resistances by, say, 20% (could be tweaked ofc) for 2 sec., not stackable. Could be a 3-point talent instead of atk speed. Also, enemies hit with smash could suffer from "disorientation" and have their atk speed reduced by 15% (PvE only) for 2 sec. Could replace the 5-point talent.

    Groundbreaker could cause bleed upon impact

    Outburst could increase crit chance to 100% temporarily (lower effect in PvP) - especially useful against bosses for weaker character. Could make a great combo with banner of war and smash.

    Ironbrow could be a deadly hit that completely ignores enemy armor (and deals full damage), with lesser armorbreak one of the talents.

    Fury of the dragon could transform you into a fiery beast that can move through enemies (but not through obstacles), causing outbursts of fire damage on each enemy you pass through (other abilities deactivated when the skill is active). Without specific duration, the skill would deplete 15-20% of maximum rage per second until it reaches zero (minimum 50 rage to activate). Of course, no rage potions or any options to increase rage are available when the skill is active.
    Talents could be : receiving 20-40 rage upon depletion, increased armor/resistances when in the beast form, stun shockwave upon depleting the skill.
    raider likes this.
  16. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    I actually "created" a rune for this <- it was nay sayed by the likes of rakshasha
    but yes I love this idea it boosts smash damage quite significantly
    I would prefer ground breaker causing 25-50% armor break instead or maybe both bleed and armor break, bleed would have to be high and not the minuscule percentages it is currently, and on top of that then fe q7 could then turn the bleed into burn damage I would want 100% base per second for 4 seconds
    Kinda like this lets say fe 100% critical chance for 3-5 seconds
  17. raider

    raider Forum Pro


    They deal waay too much Damage (and receive so low from DKs)
    At least you'd expect that Physical hits would only "tickle" the DKs, compared to their Hp.

    Besides, we don't have any Damage reduction skill for Bosses.
    There is Rageful swing 3 pt upgrade but the skill itself ain't logical to use for Bosses.
    Don't have place for all those skills lol.
    Could use some Banner or Ground Breaker related one..

    Outburst one seemed cool but the skill itself is meh. (Think it works Solo too though)
    Idk about Charge's..

    Dragon Hide one would be great if the Skill lasted longer (and had less Cooldown) or if it had Armor bonus too, idk.

    Let's see how they rework the skills though.
    Huh. Never seen such a thing so far.

    Maybe a (useless) Set thing?
    Well, kinda figured, but only when you have %80 Critical ratio.. Lower the generation to 5, or maybe 4, ez

    I hate how almost all things must be "balanced" for extreme values and be made useless before reaching 'em.
    Instead of having "Diminishing returns"
    Alternative option would be to give it some Damage/Attack Speed Debuff.
    That way it will be quite useful against Bosses (that you can't Stun) and swarm of Mobs.

    "Bleed" sounds odd anyhow. Unless u mean any kind of DoT.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  18. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Ambassador

    Nah, that's related to the new rework, they showed it along with the FotD auto-aim on the stream.
    raider likes this.
  19. raider

    raider Forum Pro

    Ahh. Good to know!

    I was thinking on a New Skill and/or a Replacement.

    Fiery Spear
    Throw a Spear that deals %140 fire damage to a target within 2 to 10 meters, on a 1.5 meter radius basis.
    (Cooldown: 8 seconds, Rage cost: 30, Essence cost: 3, Required Level: 45)

    Burn Through (2 pts)
    Spear will go through the targets (within 10 meters) dealing %20 more damage

    Hot Rod (3 pts)
    Any hit enemies will suffer %40 armor debuff

    Sonic-wave (5 pts)
    Spear will reach up to 15 meters, damaging and silencing targets for 3 seconds (including Bosses) within 2.5 meter radius
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
  20. Phyrix

    Phyrix Count Count

    ugh, youre really making me do this huh
    if you want a ranged melee character its called a hammerdin build and the reason for the name is the introduction of hammer throw and its 500 variants, dps wise it is right up there with spin to win builds but then you also get things like shields that rotate around you for x amount of time etc too.
    would this spear skill of yours be spammable?
    Rather maybe call it dragons spear
    dk the new ranger
    then while youre at it add explosive spear
    dealing 500% base damage as fire damage the spear explodes dealing 250% of your base as physical damage, shrapnel tip the physical damage is increased by 50%
    make it a 15 frame skill that costs 10 rage and is spammable
    boom 875% base per attack and 5 attacks per second coming in at 4725% base per second

    just kidding xD

    no intent on trolling you either but ya that spear of yours is kinda strong, not critisizing it, however, making a dk ranged when its melee is kind of the opposite of what we are trying to achieve