Mind Control

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by Thunder, Feb 13, 2019.

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  1. ghostmagicus

    ghostmagicus Forum Pro


    Really man, let players who knows what pvp is to talk about pvp.I dont play pvp now because is ugly not because i cant win anymore. You say you win without glyphs, that mages kill you with fireball, and mages have speed, better be informed what damage have fireball of mages, and speed from where?, there is no skill for speed.
     
  2. MaxDisappointed

    MaxDisappointed Forum Master

    Doesn't matter the damage when dwarfs or wars are winning by waiting time over while perma-regen, some mages are preferring to use fireball because they have more extension, they can hit without needing to be precise when shooting and the enemy is getting burned, they don't care doing a bit % less of dmg if they are going to hit more times while doing less effort in aiming and running away from the enemy :) Benefits of being a mage.
    This PvP is not rewarding the skill but mediocrity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  3. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Count Count

    It seems I really have to burst a bubble... once more.

    There is nothing wrong in healthy debate... the problem is you're deviating onto namecalling and stuff like that yourself.

    Name me the "worst" class in R214, or R215 - you choose. Justify your opinion with proper calculations or some other undebatable arguments.

    And here you've just almost started namecalling. If it was without those questions, it would be fine. But no, you're using rhetorical questions to basically call (indirectly) all the mages special snowflakes.
    On the other hand, I think that was becuase his English isn't very good, your point was almost like you said "oh, you shouldn't even participate here, you're saying 'mages are real mad' instead of 'really mad' and 'hited' instead of 'hit'".
    Again, not even then would it be a healthy discussion, but it would be on the edge... what you added made it simply disrespectful.

    Point me the single skill or talent of SW, in any tree, that can be used in a bossfight to regenerate HP. Keep in mind minions are never there when you need them, and if you try not to kill them and keep them for when you need healing... well, you know what's gonna happen, with them always getting in your way. Anyways, do you need to do any such weird maneuvers to heal when you're playing any other class?
    Point me the single skill or talent of SW that can be used in an official arena duel to heal, providing the opponent is not stupid enough to unleash his summons... not even saying what happens when you focus on the summons when your opponents knows what to do.
    Note: The last point appplies to the rangers as well... please, don't call the wolves/tree even a possibility.

    And mana... who said there's anything wrong with it? If anyone did it, or is going to do... I officially condemn such activity. :p

    Don't play dumb, really. You know just as well as me that those "base character values" mean exactly nothing. The differences are so small that even multiplied three or so times by the global percentages (no ess considered), they're simply almost nothing.
    Proof:
    On level 55, the difference between SW and Ranger or Dwarf is 468-425=43. Now, multiplying that by 3 (considering +200% total sum of the %Increased Damage) gives 126... 126!!! That's it! The whole difference between mage and ranger on the high-end with the same items is 126 damage.
    Then, the difference between SW and DK is 468-360=108. Now, 108 times 3 is equal to 324. 324 damage difference between the class that is supposed to be the strongest damage dealer and the class that is supposed to be the "tank" when the damage can be 50k without the real maxing out. That would mean... mage has 1,006 times bigger damage than a tank, while tank has 1,3 times bigger hp than a mage. Seems like a fair deal.

    But also more resource costs in every skill. The whole problem is, percentage of damage per one resource unit spent* is the highest on ranger, when representing him with PS, which eats lots of ess, or on DK, when representing ranger with EA. But then comes in the regeneration of resource, DK's rage system, etc. All in all, comparing % of base damage in skills between classes is comparing apples to oranges. After enough calculations you get to the point that everything is balanced in terms of % of base damage and costs...

    * - when counting out the dwarf which has a different system in that it's using summons that on the other hand can be dismantled, and it's out of league anyways

    You what?
    If you mean the attacks that don't use any resource and have no cooldown...
    DK's RS = 100% (AoE, +bleeding); SW's MM = 116%; Ra's DB = 160% (against marked opponent); SM's QS = 88% (+burning)
    So which class has the strongest (potentially) attack?

    Again, that's not the point... I'm just trying to show you that you're making a bunch of assumptions just to prove your point... and you refuse any logical argument.

    Am I saying that I want the return of MC working that way? No. I am saying I want to fix another skill that doesn't work properly and makes us weaker, if they fixed a skill that was making us stronger.

    Wow much. Very maths.
    Just... couldn't stand it.
    1 frozen sphere = 350% explosion (+ possibly 60% trail). Let's count with that trail, then it gives 410%.
    1 EA = 125% direct hit (+possibly another 125% from mark) + 250% explosion. Since now there is no OHKO and fights usually last long enough for a ranger to be able to mark before using EA, let's count it with that mark, it's 500%. It's more than one FS... and even with the mark it's 375%, so only a little less than FS. 375% times 3 (3 EA, you said?) is equal to 1125% - far more than FS.

    Again, not sure about others and can't guarantee for the others, but the problem I saw in the EA was that it travels extremly fast (there is no fast projectile), is almost invisible and, on top of that it explodes in the air on the end of a very long path, the ranger didn't even have to see the spot the EA would explode at when he was shooting.
    Now, FS travels extremly slow (there is no slower projectile), it's large, easily visible and doesn't explode when hitting (so I can just run through it straight at the caster taking only minor trail damage and not even getting slowed - it's a bug). On top of that I have to see the spot to aim, and it will explode in that pre-chosen spot only.

    Definition of trolling:
    "make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them"

    Now, that's the thing I pointed out on the very begin, and that are most of the other quotes from your previous post.
    Trolling is when we are almost sure that you know how a skill works and yet you keep posting arguments about the skills that are bogus and just do not hold water.

    Taking into account the replies to all your points above, where did you "expose the truth"?

    Having taken all the arguments I have presented above, we can be confident that you're either a noob or a liar, to say a troll, or possibly both.
     
    AlmosTBlack likes this.
  4. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    wait what do you mean not much mana ????? its 30 mana 1/3 of my total mana to deal 180% dmg while rangers lv 2 skill deals 250% dmg when the enemy is marked ?
    The ball hits for 137% and burns for 3 sec x 15 % so in total 182% dmg
    and the cost of the skill is the same 30 mana vs 33 ? for 25% more damage than the mage ?


    @MaxDisappointed ye while using fireball dwarfs and tanks outheal it with their healing ..... ye "benefits" of using mana to loose mana
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  5. MaxDisappointed

    MaxDisappointed Forum Master

    You lied a lot xD
    You use excuses from before the changes in PvP, we don't play PvP the same way before and after the changes, so this excuses are not valid anymore.
    If as a mage is impossible to hit with FS (at least that's what you're trying to tell me) there would be no mages using it continuously as a main resource in PvP to deal with just 1 hit same damage as 3 EA, for example :)
    About regen in bossfights... do you want a tank? Do it, play with war.
    I'm just exposing facts.... funny thing is that it seems like I need to expose arguments but for a mage is enough if they just say: "we have the worst, we don't have the best", without exposing the undabatable arguments as you demand to me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  6. sargon234

    sargon234 Forum Demigod

    anyone who thinks that mages and rangers have a viable healing skill is probably getting his arguments out of his backside, which is why the stench of manure have filled this thread, all of this skatole is reeking very hard

    You should not bother using logic to answer those smelly arguments, you're going to lose braincells
    I mean, anyone who is in favour of what amounts to theft, like the removal of sapphires, should not be taken seriously

    I understand that's an ad hominem, but in the end if you try to reason with someone like that, you'll end up becoming stupid and being beaten at it by the experience of your opponent
     
  7. nikatar

    nikatar Junior Expert

    But we have to mark you first and hit you after with the other skill.....it is not that easy when the other player moves or he is shooting back.....your skill is way more simple if you think about that. Anyway, i just said how some mages kill me at pvp. There are many "strategies" you can follow and many skills to use!


    --- MERGED ---


    I meant that they can move all the time, dogde and randomly shoot a fireball, while the archers have to mark anemies first for each good dmg ability if they actually want to do some dmg!
     
    Last edited by moderator: Feb 16, 2019
  8. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    read @ΣMiwel's post and then reread/rewrite your statement
     
  9. MaxDisappointed

    MaxDisappointed Forum Master

    Never said that, but I don't think that a mage should write in the forum saying: we don't have regeneration (in bosses, by the way) as if they really should have it, or forgetting to mention that they are not the only class that does not have it.
    I mean, when you choose a mage you do not expect to encounter a healer.
     
  10. sargon234

    sargon234 Forum Demigod

    but a mage or a ranger effectively don't have such an option, the ranger have it a little better but not by much and in pvp it can also backfire

    tell me then, how can such a regeneration be useful in anyway

    The tree and the wolf get oneshot easily in high difficulties, when you'll likely need it, so it doesn't matter
    In lower difficulties you'll never ever get in danger of dying so also it doesn't matter

    the mage regeneration is not an ability, it's a very costly talent, those talent points are worth more on other abilities
    Also it only happens when you kill an enemy, which is outright useless on bosses and irrelevant on lower difficulties since there's no danger of dying there

    Mages have the ability to regenerate mana yes, but it the most effective in crowds, which rarely happens with bosses

    Mages have the lowest survivability, yet they have similar offensive capabilities to other classes

    By the way, i'm not interested in a regeneration ability on mages, i believe it should not the way to bolster the class, it should be sort of like a glass cannon
     
  11. MaxDisappointed

    MaxDisappointed Forum Master

    I don't know what class you think I am, but im a ranger, I know those things.
    In case you did not know, ranger regeneration is not an ability either, the wolves and Deadly Blow do not heal if you don't use the specific points.
    I didn't say regeneration in mages or rangers is useful, but simply not corresponding to this classes, although we also have it in a different way.
     
  12. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    I dont know what are you saying but since the wolves/ tree dont take agro they sumply can heal you atleast for 1/2 of hp before they die
    which is still more usefull since its a 3 point talent ratgher than 5. For me 3 points in wolves is a must.
     
  13. Shiro

    Shiro Padavan

    (This reminds me of PS bug fix. At that time rangers were invited to Q3 just for the double hit on Heredur near walls so, after the fix, considering they were the weakest class, they were invited even less than before)

    Based on my experience on dso forums, whenever there is a class underpeforming, people tend to not admit it. Well, I can't say it for sure in this situation since i quitted permanently playing DSO like 3 months ago (changed account password to one taken out of a random generator :D), still pointless nerfs are unfair. Can't see the need to slow down a '30s car partecipating in a F1 competition...
    Also reading patchnotes about Bellicose 3/3 set bonus bug fix, while they said it was all ok some months before, makes me wonder about the criteria adopted for MC'so_O
     
  14. EmilyRose

    EmilyRose Forum Inhabitant

    About Mind Control ;)
    [​IMG]
     
    AlmosTBlack and Thunder like this.
  15. MaxDisappointed

    MaxDisappointed Forum Master

    Devs never said MC or Dragan laser were ok.
    You confuse Dev's work with those who are in charge of controlling the feedback on social networks.
    And they ever say the same thing: If the set, skill, etc is doing the stated then it's ok.
    People understand it as the devs have confirmed that there is no bug, but it is not what they said, they only write scheduled phrases for certain questions.
    Truth is MC wasn't doing the stated (and still is not doing in PvP). You can't do an effective MC on bosses or players, so you can't take profit of the talent points either.
    Talent points are a complement to the base ability, if the basic description of the skill does not work, neither should the talent of astral Phenomenon, there can not be one without the other. Players or bosses were never mind controlled, never got +200% damage either.
    Going further, what's the point on having the cursor on a wall, "throwing" mind control and that any enemy will end up under the effect of the skill? You should have the cursor over the specific enemy that you want to control, so only when you have it on an adequate enemy to be controlled, the ability can be used.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  16. EmilyRose

    EmilyRose Forum Inhabitant

    You say that, because you like say that.
    Look at the picture that I posted and you can see how "the Frozen Heart" work on boss even if he is immune to my control mind ;)

    Yes, because they are immune to control, but not to the effect of skill.
    Now the skill doesn't work like the past...since the 2013.
    Are you happy for that?
    I'm happy if you are ;)
     
  17. MaxDisappointed

    MaxDisappointed Forum Master

    If they are immune to MC, they are immune to all effects that MC can active, a no is a no, and a yes is a yes.
    The skill and the points that you decide to put are related to each other.
    Frozen heart is also buged, I'm waiting for the fix.
    I already said the solution for this problem:
    No more throwing abilities to the air, this is nonsense and this is what causes that kind of bugs.
    I say that because is how it works in any game, a system of skills and points to add advantages to the skill, not the character.
    If Astral Phenomenon were a separate skill, there would be no problem, but is just a talent correlated to a basic skill, so it's conditioned.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  18. EmilyRose

    EmilyRose Forum Inhabitant

    No, Frozen Heart is the prove how Mind Control works.
    No, abilities on immune opponent to control of mind not to effect skill.
    In your opinion what should be the advantages for character ? to have an immune opponent and an useless talent/skill ?
     
  19. MaxDisappointed

    MaxDisappointed Forum Master

    Frozen heart and still Astral phenomenon is prove that how MC is buged (devs didn't fix it 100% yet).
    You never used MC to control the mind of the immune opponent because it is impossible and that's why it's buged, you used MC to benefit from bug with the talent points that should not work on an immune opponent.
    That's why immunization exists, to make some skills useless, you are not special for that, all classes have useless skills vs bosses.
    Read patchnotes and you'll see changes in more classes affected for the immunization.
    Before the bugfix you were using Astral phenomenon as if it were a skill and not a talent correlated to another base skill, easy to understand that's why it's a bug (In fact, this bug is still in game, I hope they solve it 100% soon).
     
  20. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Count Count

    Yep... and that's the crap.
    The only skills bosses should be immune to are the skills that completly put them out of fight for a while. (well, in fact you can stun them for a bit once a time... alright, if they did it that way...)
    So yes, mind control shouldn't work on bosses.
    If that talent of that skill is not to work... alright.
    Fix the Synchronicity (5p. talent of Singularity), which has a description saying that it works on all skills, while it does not, and we're all clear.
    Am I asking for too much?

    And of course make DoTs like that of BoW of DK or ToT of Ra work on bosses again.
     
    AlmosTBlack likes this.

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