My Thoughts on Class Rebalancing

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by piteris2, Apr 22, 2018.

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  1. MademoiselleCaramel

    MademoiselleCaramel Junior Expert

    Lol, no one force you to play q7set. Why so mad bro? Go and try some other stuff, there are plenty of items..

    Also, so far as I see, every class have 1-2 main sets. Yes, we see some diversity, but we all know there is always one best combination.
     
    Hetsunien likes this.
  2. HellenicMacedonian

    HellenicMacedonian Active Author

    In this case, it would be better to make a different post because the set issue has nothing to do with balancing classes.

    You want more choices and at the same time, you want to destroy one of the most effective sets --only-- for the rangers so you can play with something that suits you best.

    No relation to balancing classes, completely off-topic.
     
  3. Shansurri

    Shansurri Active Author

    I watch people complaining about this or that skill in each class, as it pertains to pvp. I can't help but feel that the issue is really not how the skills for each class are designed. The issue is that when we sign up for PVP, we have a better than average chance of ending up either with a cheater (bot/script) or with a veteran. In either case, the PVP is so clearly unbalanced from the start that yes, we ARE going to get one hit killed. I know this for a fact-- I know that I've signed up for PVP with others who are closer to me in skill, only to end up with players who I KNOW I cannot beat, or even hurt. There is nothing wrong with my own toon, other than youth/inexperience. There is nothing wrong with those who are destroying me, other than their extreme age/experience. What is wrong is that DSO, through whatever makeshift algorithm they choose to use to select PVP partners, pairs up players who have absolutely no way to legit fight with each other.

    This is not a character flaw-- this is a DSO flaw in pairing fighters for PVP events.

    Why nerf X or Y skill, skills that are generally needed in PVE for best group play, only to try to balance what is simply NOT able to be balanced? No one with a year's experience should be beating someone else with five years' experience.
     
    piteris2 likes this.
  4. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador


    That is and has been a huge problem with balancing, but not the only problem.

    Years ago things were better.

    Then the dev's decided to massively increase the stats of players. We jumped from 3K to 7K to 30K in dmg, from a few thousand HP to 200K.

    The skills were never the issue, it was the sets that helped throw the balance out of whack even more once the stats were raised to ridiculous levels without any thought of how it would impact pvp.

    When the stats were changed some of us older players began to ask for pvp and pve to be separated as this would be the only way to start balancing characters. We were originally told that this was not possible. As those stats got even higher, the cries for nerfs began to become a daily thing.

    Until they are separated and some serious thought into pvp, this will be a never ending cycle.
     
    semen470, Shansurri and piteris2 like this.
  5. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    As pointed out by lovatic66 that was possible because turret dmg was bugged, now it's lowered and things are a lot different :(
     
    piteris2 likes this.
  6. piteris2

    piteris2 Regular

    Couldn’t agree more. The devs should make PvP matchmaking only +/- 1 level rather than 5 levels. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been matched against much higher leveled toons, or even just random twinks at the lower ranks...
    ...speaking of twinking, I think it’s a real issue and something should be done about it for sure. From my experience, PvP at level 50+ is nothing compared to PvP at the previous levels. It’s a nightmare having to deal with all these guys with level 50 gear at level 20, so stupid...

    Ah ok I understand ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
  7. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Do you know what that means?
    that means that the vast majority of the players under level 55 will almost never get a PvP fight.
     
  8. -HARRA81-

    -HARRA81- Forum Mogul

    They should rank the matches according to the experience level, then gear level and then pvp level so that all of these would make your
    "pvp level for match making".

    So basically lv15 Knight of The Order with lv40 gear could meet a lv45 recruit with lv45 gear but maybe the "stat demishing against higher lv players should be lower than it is currently" And let's say like after 30-90 days lv55 character should be only ranked to lv55 players and fresh 1-30/90 days at lv55 could be ranked with lower level players. That's what I think could work better even tho removing the wisdom will change the situation a lot while old twink players who have high wisdom level and use it agains someone who has like 15-20 wisdom.
     
  9. piteris2

    piteris2 Regular

    PvP fights at the lower levels are full of twinks with level 50+ gear anyway, and I don’t think that is enjoyable for anyone (apart from the twinks)...
     
    Shansurri likes this.
  10. sargon234

    sargon234 Commander of the Forum

    Well, that means twink who still remain will almost always never get a PvP fight
    Now that would be fun, there would be more salt mining from them

    But it would inconvenience those who get the golden clover from the daily offer
     
    piteris2 likes this.
  11. HellenicMacedonian

    HellenicMacedonian Active Author

    Most of low levels of this equipment have level up or have stopped playing.
     
  12. Shansurri

    Shansurri Active Author


    It also means that the problem would not be fixed, as others have noted. I'm a level 55, and have been for around 6 months. I can NOT compete in PVP with someone who has done either of the following:

    1. Played longer and therefore accrued more gems, runes, high tier items, glyphs, wisdom.

    2. Botted or cheated their way into having the above.


    If the game can GIVE gems, runes, tiered items, glyphs, and points, then the game can track said items. Which means that the game can create algorithms for PVP which more closely match players to other players of their own ability. The game developers should also therefore be able to assign priority to each, so that (for example):

    Player1 requests a PVP. There are three other players also asking for PVPs. Player1 is matched first with Player3, who most closely matches. IF Player3 decides not to play, the match ups continue down the list, from most to least compatible.

    This does not currently happen, EVER. Teamspeak and Discord exist-- players talk. We know darn well when ten of us are all trying to pvp, and are getting matched with omnipotent marshals instead of with others who we might fairly enjoy fighting.
     
  13. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    There is no problem at all. the problem would be created if the matchmaking is to be changed the way they are asking for.
    Yes you can't compete with them. So what? You will have to lose 15-25 matches before you get matched with players on your level.
    Do you know how many times I had to lie down in a dirt before I got competitive?
    also the term "competitive" is relative. You are competitive today but in two weeks you may be not. Because the game is constantly changing. When changes happen you will have to rebuild from scratch like the rest.

    Now ... i don't know how many of the previous posters have tested the matchmaking (I know Harra81 is a top SW with huge amount of matches) ... but how many were actually testing the matchmaking? The answer is : probably none.
    I have been testing it for years on TS ... I even have special toons for testing (not my main SW). It is working as it should.
    What that means? That means that it is working like the players were asking it to be working in the past. The matchmaking was not always this way ... it was different in the past, but the player themselves asked to be reworked this way. You can search the old conversations in this forum.
    I was always against these new changes (at time) because i believe that the previous system was much better. And there you go ... everything I said back then has proven to be true.
    It is always better to have matches even against strong opponents you can never defeat ... rather than having no matches at all.

    What you are asking is to make +/- 1 level difference.
    Let us see what will happen:
    - you need to have enough players online on same level in same time
    - you need to have enough players from ^ those ... who are actually available to be matched with you
    - you need to assume that every single one of them is going to play the arena in same time (which will never happen) without playing PvE
    - you need to have a large pool of players available in same time at any given time ... that actually meet all aforementioned conditions

    that will lead to having a match once in a while ... or it will mean no matches for some players at all.
    This will happen on all servers ... even those well populated. Not to mention ghost servers.
    Not all players are playing in same time ... most of them are on different time zones.
    From those playing in same time ... not all players are playing PvP.
    From the handful of players who are meeting the requirements so far ... not all of them are on same level.
    Divide them even further ... and you get a problem of getting a match at all.

    How many players are complaining "I can't get matches at all" or " i am getting only few matches in 24 hours" ? Many.
    And that would have never happened if the matchmaking system has not been changed.
    But the players were asking for matches that are "fair" ... so according to their request the matchmaking has been changed accordingly.
    Now you are asking for even further tightening of the brackets by making the requirement +/- 1 level.

    It is always better to have 100 unfair matches than having 0 fair matches.
    PvP is not fair ... it will always be that way. Life is not fair too.
    Even if you get an opponent who is playing for only 2 months (instead of your 6 months) s/he can be a lot more stronger than you and you would have no chance of winning the match.
    PvP is not meant to be fair ... if you want to be competitive you can either pay or play for a long time until you become competitive.
    it is simple as that.
     
    semen470 likes this.
  14. piteris2

    piteris2 Regular

    Better no PvP matches than trash PvP matches that quickly become a boring die...respawn...die immediately...respawn, etc. because of players with much higher level items and insane stats compared to everyone else. My concern is mainly with twinks in low-level PvP; I never said PvP at endgame should be changed or anything like that.

    Also, you said PvP isn’t meant to be fair. If it isn’t fair then it shouldn’t even be called “Player vs Player”, but “Player vs payer” or “Player vs Insanely powerful impossible-to-defeat Player”. It goes against the very definition of PvP! Why do you think the devs removed potions from PvP? To try to make it fairer of course!

    So overall it is certain elements of PvP which make it frustrating especially for new players/beginners. If DSO really wants to grow its playerbase, it should probably look at what PvP games gamers generally like and enjoy, and produce some sort of similar experience. You know, there is a huge reason why a particular Battle Royale game (the name of which I won’t mention as the mods will just remove it) is soooo popular right now. Why do you think that is? It’s because the PvP in that game is actually fair - no twinks, no OP equipment, everyone is equal. And if DSO wants to have a fun, successful PvP experience, they should probably follow suit...
     
    Shansurri likes this.
  15. Moot

    Moot Active Author

    @piteris2 your pretty much have no idea what you are talking about. There are no real twinks anymore, since bp took away xp blocking. The only way to twink now is to pay massive amounts of money, which means bp would never implement anything you are asking for, since they are not going to get rid of the cash cow..
     
  16. piteris2

    piteris2 Regular

    Really? So what level toons do you have? 55? You clearly either don’t have a low level character or you do have one but don’t PvP with it. Otherwise, you would know that what I said makes perfect sense. Anyway, it’ not just about XP blocking, there are what I like to call “hybrid twinks” out there who still gain XP but at a very slow rate, and have super high level items. In fact, just make a new toon, get to level 20, enter a single PvP match, and you’ll see exactly what I’m talking about. True, they are not “twinks” in the traditional sense, but they still frustrate the hell out of everyone, making low level PvP unplayable. Trust me, it’s an absolute nightmare, I sometimes even encounter level 25 players with Q7 and Q8 sets who can one-hit a level 40 player, it’s so ridiculous.

    My previous suggestion of lowering the matchmaking brackets probably won’t solve this, as @trakilaki pointed out, so the devs should just make PvP based on item levels instead. Someone’s probably suggested this in the past, but why isn’t this being seriously considered by the devs as a solution to this problem?
     
  17. HellenicMacedonian

    HellenicMacedonian Active Author

    It's not a solution, what you say.

    Again they will have the advantage in the arena because it is not just a matter of equipment.

    They are not new players, they have wisdom and stones.

    It's just the same as 55, someone is a new player, someone is a "warhorse".

    You went to the arena as a new player and an old one beat you.

    Get over it, this is the logical thing to happen.

    What you ask for, does not solve a "problem", it just moves it somewhere else.

    These players who are now in the arena are the ones who already have 55 players and have kept the low levels exclusively for the arena and they are not so many.

    What the company was supposed to do, it did.

    You are exaggerated with something that has already been solved.

    And like all things, it takes some time for them to apply.

    However, you have achieved your own theme of balancing classes to turn it into something meaningless and off-topic.

    This really is an "achievement"
     
  18. piteris2

    piteris2 Regular

    Perhaps you also misunderstood what I said: it's not about old versus new players, it's about players whose sole purpose is to dominate low level PvP and that is a big problem (that is a fact not just my opinion). Please feel free to go into any low level PvP match and find out for yourself. It's better to do that than to write unverified and opinionated information here in this thread.

    By the way, I didn't even bring up PvP in this thread, so please check previous posts before making any claims.

    Have a nice day.
     
  19. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    So you believe that all the original low level twinks are now at lvl 55 just because DSO took away xp block a little while ago?

    New players are never going to be able to compete with older ones or the heavy payers, it is what it is.

    The current match making system is what it is, so you if you wish to do pvp regularly, Trak suggested the best way, by losing a lot.

    Of course it is not fun, and pvp has been broken for a long time now and has only gotten worse since R155.

    In order to fix pvp, first DSO must get more people to play pvp. They made a half hearted attempt with giving clovers away as a bonus, but obviously that isn't encouraging enough people to put up with the garbage.

    Until the pool of players gets bigger, nothing will fix match making.

    Some people feel that this new update will begin to balance things in pvp, but only time will tell if that works or not.

    DSO has been talking about fixing pvp for years and to date has only made it worse. Who knows what tomorrow will be.
     
  20. HellenicMacedonian

    HellenicMacedonian Active Author

    I was low-level, so I speak to you firsthand and I certainly know more than you imagine.

    The best lows "climbed" to 55.

    The best low levels did not even play arena because they were raising their level.

    Those who have stayed, playing occasionally, either because they left the game or because they have 55 players.

    The solution was given when they removed the block.

    Whatever imbalance exists will be solved over time.

    There is no dominance at low levels, it is an illusion.

    The game does not support low-level play.

    The low-levels are "dead", some have not yet understood it.
     
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