Prerequisite for higher difficulties

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by Akageshi, Mar 10, 2018.

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  1. Akageshi

    Akageshi Forum Duke

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    Last edited: Aug 5, 2018
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  2. Talbor

    Talbor Active Author

    I like the first suggestion about needing to solo the boss at least through Painful to get to Excrutiating. I'm still fairly new, so I don't know at what difficulty bosses can't be solo'd as ftp. I'm hoping they all are with enough work though! I don't see how the need to solo a boss would kill the multi-player aspect since it'd only be required once.
     
  3. MikeyMetro

    MikeyMetro Forum Overlooker

    I agree with the concept that is far to easy to from zero to hero in this game. Though I'm not really sure what the best solution to the problem is.

    Although I have no problem with the solo kill boss idea it does kinda goes against the grain of an mmo. Using a group to get something done that cannot be done solo is kinda the point of player with other peeps. Maybe some restriction on the group makeup... like if there is a team member that already has a T6 kill then it wouldn't count.

    The weapon tier prereq would actually be pretty easy to get. So I don't think it really does the trick.

    Another thing to consider is some of the suggestions heavily favor cashers. So I gotta kill this t5 five boss to get to t6... no biggie... I'll just spend a several thousand anders on resources and revives until the sucker is dead.

    Like I said; I really don't know what the best solution is. This topic should be pursued though, imho.

    Luck be with ye,
    Mikey,
    Tegan
     
  4. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    The thought isn't horrible, but does kind of defeat the purpose of a mmo. The other issue with the thought is that people could be stuck at lower levels hoping for gear to drop or buy that would be obsolete in a very short time. Then the whole core problem will be multiplied to ridiculous levels.

    The biggest hurdle would be getting the heavy payers and pvp players to get on board with such an idea.
     
  5. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    I dislike the idea. If that was implemented, I would quit right away. Having completed everything and all solo with 1 char, I moved to another. I would never go through the same amount of grind again. I think my char deserves the friends I acquired playing the first toon for 5 years.

    Also, some of the classes have issues with specific bosses. For a mage, for example, it is extremely hard to kill mortis. But Heredur is much easier. Vice versa with DK.

    Additionally, killing a boss will be just a matter of red essences and andermants to standup. It's just gonna be tons of grind and tons of money for BP with zero fun.

    And it kills the whole idea of mmo, like others have said.

    I see nothing wrong with being carried. It's not like you get everything in 1 day. No one would carry you hundred of times to get an item. They will do it ten times here and there, but you still need to earn your way into heroes. If there is a person being carried thousands of times, he earned it in one way or the other, with the exception of those who pay real money for being carried.

    Thinking through the idea more and more, I find it unacceptable, that will drive tons of people out. New players have enough issues trying to catch up, crafting, buying uniques, grinding 300m glyphs, dropping all the gems, drakens to get up runes, and just playing for 3 years to get all the special runes endgamers have already. And even if they do all of that, they will still lack sapphires=speedrunes. Implementing this idea will make already terrible path of newcomer impossible, or at least unentertaining.

    As I finish this comment, I hate this idea.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
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  6. sargon234

    sargon234 Commander of the Forum

    I agree

    Carrying is one of the many ways for guild to get members ready for soloing, i see no problem with carrying just one time to get them ready to be able to solo the pws,at least in painful, so they can start getting gold lined objects and start crafting
     
    GoulishNightmares likes this.
  7. Akageshi

    Akageshi Forum Duke

    This is basically a discussion on whether carrying is fine or not, and if it's not then what would be the solution.

    I see that in general the community is fine with it. After all, who needs restrictions if the decision whether to carry somebody or not is up to the individual groups.

    Thanks for your opinions. I submit.
     
  8. Demon

    Demon Forum Mogul

    That was my idea i think somewhere when they have bring that interdiction to exclude players from group because i consider that being carried is like an exploit or pushing.Many times a nob player that cant kill a mob on excruciating try so catch a team to carry him on infernal mode and that for me is a cheating he cheat the players that he have combat value for that mode but in fact he try to make them carry him and now you cant kick him from group and spend resource to kill final boss because you kill in 4 (so is better for BP that you need to buy resource from them to finish the run)
    You can find this behavior on kids because they do that form birth they try to trick you to get everything they need from you instead of working hard for what they need.
    This thing i dont like that is why i make a suggestion to put a kick method for them (right click on player and kick from group with msg for others "is nob" now al players get a message like {Demon want to kick ZZZ from group because "is nob" }all vote and if majority accept than vote pass and that player is kicked from group)or like you said in this post to make a prerequisite for every mode so that they dont have access on higher difficulties until he kill the boss on lower ones but as Rhysingstar said the drop is too low and they will need to increase the drop rate much more in order for them to grind their way to t6 .Also making this type of making quests for final difficulties or final gear people will have more work to do and maybe they will not get bored so easy.

    To respond sebastian_fl post , maybe you right i know that is hard for new players because they miss many things that we had but let me tell you something , if they are carried they will not learn the game, they will not learn to craft because nothing can keep them to go on the higher difficulties. The only way to make him learn to craft is to give them a problem where the only solution is to learn how to craft and make better gear.They can implement some quests for them that can give them few low speed runes and also they can give them some offers in shop to buy some packs with speed runes.I agree that are bosses harder to kill for some classes but you know that developer team can change that and they will change that according to that Balancing thread so lets think for the future and hope for the best.

    Solution,solutions, if we always put our self in that position where that change can hurt us we will never agree with changes, we need to find solutions to lower the impact of that changes for everyone if that suggestion can solve a big problem and in this case the problem is that people hate to play with strangers because there is no equal combat value and also they cant kick a player from group and they need to carry him all run and this is why we loose a nice concept of mmo games and that need a solution.
    I never make runs with players from local chat and i think many players that have no guild will quit the game because they will reach that point where they will not understand that they need to craft in order to make better gear they will always try to get high rank gear and they will not understand why they are weak.
    Now if they can see that cant make the last quest example killing Heredur in excruciating mode they will ask in guild/local chat what he need to do to kill heredur alone to open the next difficulties and maybe someone will answer him that he need to craft some items or his weapon.That is why he need to learn step by step, let me tell you something i have recruit a war for my guild lev55 ~85k life and stats ok for infernal 1 (items rank 5 most of them) and i have explained him how he need to craft what he need to do, to be able to tank inf3 and you know what it said "wow i did not know that, this game is more complicated than i thought , is so much work to do" and that is because game dont teach him how to make 4x yellow line and dont block his way to max level in order to make him learn step by step what he need.Now the problem is that learning curve for this game is is not as it should be so that when you reach the final level you should know all you need to know about the game that is why is necessary to implement those step by step / rank by rank dificulties by dificulties method.

    This is the decision of BP when they implement that impossibility to kick players from group an i dont like that, i hate that and if i could i would put that developer that bring this 'nice' idea to carry all nobs from local chat with his resources payed with his money.
     
  9. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    You make a good point, but there could be some benefits to a prerequisite. However, I got thinking about this more last night and too many other changes would have to be implemented in order for a prerequisite to work.

    As far as carrying people, I'm fine with it (as long as the player is contributing in some meaningful way).

    It isn't as simple as 1 run through inf 3 that makes a huge difference to newer/weaker players.

    Let's not forget:

    1. You need lots of gear to craft. On top of the need, you put up with the random number generating god at the craft table.
    2. You need lots of materi frags. Add to that, you need luck that you don't have to buy multiple items to get a good one.
    3. You need lots of runs to get gear to drop. If you aren't buying gear.
    4. You need lots of runs for cores to drop.

    Of course this is why some people choose to cheat. It isn't easy.

    On the other side of this, a prerequisite would end up keeping the gap between the weak and the super strong which only hurts the game in the long run.

    The gap is what causes too many to complain, and then that results in more nerfs.

    As Demon points out, the game does a poor job of teaching players how to play the game. The dev's make it unnecessarily hard on purpose for some unknown reason.

    I do think that there needs to be a balance between the weak and the strong, and there should be direct line to building a character, but I have no idea how to do that simply based on the current game mechanics.

    I expect that is why the dev's have such a hard time. Any change within the current DSO would require multiple other changes in order for it to work and would probably mess things up worse than helping.

    There is no one size fits all fix.
     
  10. sargon234

    sargon234 Commander of the Forum

    Carrying is not cheating, otherwise it would be prohibited, Likewise it's not exploiting, for the same reason
    Now, you may think it is, but it's your opinion.And you know what?your opinion is wrong

    Do you even think before posting?Seriously, you think bad, you are bad and your post is bad and you should feel bad
    And you are also wrong on top of that
    But carrying is fine, it's one of the few solutions to make newbies stronger in this game, there is also crafting, but then you need the uniques
    Your suggestion would make the gap between the strong and the newbies even larger and in reality it needs to be streched, not to be widened

    Your suggestion would work if newbies came to level 55 ready to solo bosses on painful in the pws
    But the game doesn't do that
     
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  11. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    I think we need to roll back and decide what problem are we trying to solve, and if there is one?

    Are we solving 'newbies become end game pros smashing all and everything too fast? Does it even exist?

    Or, perhaps, there is an opposite problem - 'newbies have 0 chance to catch up because grinding takes way too long and newbie need years to catch up on runes, and even after years he will never ever have some of the items and runes as they could not be obtained anymore'.

    Do you think the former problem exists or the latter? I'm certain we are dealing with the latter. Thus, the OP idea worsens the problem, not solves it.
     
  12. silverseas

    silverseas Count Count

    Years ago when I played, I "carried" quite a few people in game, with no questions asked. I had no problem expending essences to make runs faster, revives if they died, and offered tips and advice if they asked. Then I quit for a few years and came back weak as hell because of all the changes to the game. :D A lot of people came to offer me the same assistance I gave them several years ago.

    Frankly, I dislike using the term "carry" so much as it is "helping" and building a community. This game is built so you can play however you want. If you feel like carrying new players all day because you're OP, go ahead. If you want to play in your own bubble and ignore everyone, go ahead. If you want to alternate between the two depending on your mood, that works too. If I just wanted to play a game with a linear progression and nobody able/willing to help, I'd be playing some kind of offline RPG.

    Locking players into a linear progression is kind of silly and there's a great example of it in Lor'Tac - the Cradle of Frost. Players on different steps of the quest cannot help each other because there's something like 3 different versions of Cradle of Frost and everyone ends up on a different map. All it does is cause confusion and everyone ends up soloing their particular step of the quest.

    On a dead server like Tegan, this would be particularly disastrous. There's only ever a handful of groups at peak hours, and now those groups will end up even more splintered and scattered. For the most part, it's already a struggle to find a group to do what you want unless you have close friends.
     
  13. Demon

    Demon Forum Mogul

    Some people are proud and learn to do their own stuff and other beg for help instead of learning what they have to do , is a way of life everyone think that his way is the best.Here we can argue too much is like a communist way of taking from rich people and give to poor people instead of teaching poor people to work and give them a job. If you agree with that is your problem i personally dont like that BP force me to stick with a nub in my group if i want to farm with local chat. I think 50% of dso players play with guilds and avoid groups from local and that is bad for them for the weak people because they will learn to craft too late and they usually get teams like them weak people that try to relies on other people to do the job for them and at the boss there will be a big fiasco .

    Our suggestion need to have 4 requirements simultaneous fulfilled in order to work":
    - quests for every boss every difficulties and after you beat that boss first time he should drop one of his unique.(just first time is something i have seen in one game) and also the recipe to craft the unique for that rank.
    - quests to combine items with yellow line at workbench that in the end (after you make a legendary item with 4x yellow lines) can give you a title something like Craftsman/engineer and if you have all items with yellow lines MasterEngineer/MasterCraftsman because kids like titles and they will ask how you get something like this.
    -better drop of items/unique for players with level lower than 55 also no entrances payment for them on higher than normal maps (not pw just mormal maps with higher dificulties)
    - all world bosses (not pw bosses) should drop solid cores and pristine cores(pristine only on higher than normal) because all unique from normal maps can be crafted with solid cores and they can have already many cores to craft until they get lv 50. so they will ask what is that core for what to do with them and maybe they start crafting before they reach level 50.


    Remember that few years ago there was very hard and demanding pw quests and was ok and i think if they implement this there will be ok too for everyone, they already do that thing with recipes.

    Maybe there is more to add and i miss something but i will keep an eye on thread.

    You have a point here but the problem is not what you say there, i always help my guild mates and friends and sometimes strangers but the problem is that BP force me to carry them and i dont like that, if i want to make 3-4 runs before i go to sleep with a good team and in fact i get one two nobs in my team and in that time i make just one run and spend many resources then tomorrow i will not enter in the game because probably it will happen again.I hope you will understand that there is a difference between when i want to help and when they force me to "help". Maybe you right with linear progression but the game became much more complex and they need to learn and that means a learning curve that should be implement in game not only the story line. We have spend months to finish Amon quests they finish them all in a week or so and after they want them to carry them to get better items.So i dont talk about friends and guild i talk about strangers that you help them and after that if you kill them in arena they will talk ugly words because they dont care if you carry them because BP wont let you to kick them from group.
    I still can help them to farm better gear and tell them how to craft items to kill the boss if they implement this.

    And for those that talk about "the gap" yes there is good players and low players and making this will not make a bigger gap it will make many layers for players there will not be only good and bad there will be good players that cant kill solo some boses.
    I will have hard time to kill all bosses inf 2 because i dont have all pieces of my 2h build crafted so it will be a challenge for me too and i don't want to think when they will bring infernal 4 - but you know what ? even if it affect me i consider that it is the right thing to be done.

    How many of you have enabled "auto accept all group requests"?if they implement this than you can enable this and you can make group much easy and the game will be much better because you will get a team almost equal with you.Also you will get very fast a group if they can make a register group like PVP so when you need to do q3 inf 1 you register for a group and you will be allocated in a group it can be so nice to play with playesr similar with you as combat value and im sure that will enjoy the game better.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  14. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    I was one of them. :D

    Some players enjoy helping and this makes the game better.
     
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  15. This is truly just a matter of opinion and rediculous. Nobody forces anyone to help another. You make that choice. I have no problem helping someone in my guild. We do this to help grow stronger and be better.
     
    Shansurri likes this.
  16. sargon234

    sargon234 Commander of the Forum

    Ok, now we're entering HURRDURR territory, this is getting more ridicolous, i'll try being serious, you' re asking me too much, you owe me a favour

    But noone is forcing you to help people, if people in local chat beg you for help, you can simply ignore them or refuse them help
    There is noone abolishing private property of.... your character gear i guess or the means of resource farming, i don't know.At least if you want to bring communism into the discussion, use an example that is actually relevant to communism, this has nothing to do with communism

    So now your complaint is about kicking people out of groups
    There are already solutions: ask damage parameters when some people in local chat ask to join for a group( dmg, crit, impact)
    Group only with known players, with guild members or with people you know are strong
    Avoid local chat

    Making life more difficult for newbies and for guilds trying to uplift them will make the problem worse, it would not solve it

    Nobody is forcing you to carry players, you have everything under your control, you can select players who join your groups
    If you accept every random invite and then you get pissed off because you accepted newbies, it's your fault, not BP's
     
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  17. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Yea ... i was helping many people. After they get what they want most of them don't even say hello anymore :D
    This could be interesting idea. After a player has been helped by another player ... they should say hello every day in the next 100 days ... otherwise there will be lock on their drop . No unique items no materi, no cores ... etc.
     
  18. Akageshi

    Akageshi Forum Duke

    I though the purpose and fun in RPG's since the times of tabletop D&D was mainly the slow progression from no one to a hero. This simple but strong principle gets squashed in games including DSO by allowing players to purchase as many gems and glyphs and stuff like that as they wish, and by indirectly supporting practices such as carrying or "helping" as you guys like to call it. At least xp block is a history.

    Helping is fine. But these days it looks like it's the only way to get good stuff fast. And getting stuff faster than others is desirable regardless of some obsolete RPG ideals mentioned above, and the general mindset is now such that only a fool doesn't seek help from the strongest...
     
  19. Shansurri

    Shansurri Active Author

    I typed up a response, and stuff. Then I decided to distill it down to my initial thought.


    NOPE.
     
  20. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador


    Very rarely do I ask for help, not that I couldn't use it, but I need more resources for it to make sense. If I had a ton more materi frags, and a few thousand more cores, I might ask for help, but since I don't, I am running solo most of the time.

    Now when the strong players ask me to join, I happily do so and contribute the best I can.

    When weaker players ask me for help, I always say yes when I am able. I remember well when players like lingeringsnow, big momma, crazy momma, dreadnor, among others helped me, so I am paying that kindness forward as it were.


    If more players took some time to help others, everyone would get stronger and we would all have more fun.

    That doesn't mean everything should be done for you, but getting or giving help is a good thing in my opinion.
     
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