Red Wolves FTW

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by BigPapa, Dec 10, 2014.

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  1. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    When pets are summoned, their damage is based on your toon's damage and does not change even if you make a change in gear.

    As a result you can put essence on when you cast them, then take it back off, burning only the 6 essence required to summon them. They will go to work on the mobs and all their damage is multiplied by the Red ess even though you don't have it equipped any more. This is a great way to tack on extra damage against boss mobs like Khally, Gorga, Mortis and Destructor.

    For me; the damage for a 10 second summon of wolves with red ess adds up to 36K damage. Not bad for 6 reds and 10 seconds.
    jthames likes this.
  2. Duriastriker

    Duriastriker Forum Inhabitant

    Would you say the same goes for guardian?


    Just tested it, it does.xD
    Last edited by moderator: Dec 11, 2014
  3. Piipero

    Piipero Junior Expert

    Well well well.. ain't you two a pair of Holmes and Watson.... ;)
  4. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador

    I think the point of using essence is to improve the attack power. Since some abilities that use essence can last for a set time i.e. turrets for steam mech, then this is expected. You can test this but if it says I uses 3 essance and you have 1 left then I wonder if you still get the full effect. I honestly don't know if I am talented enough to put in essence do an ability remove it fast enough that I do any good.
  5. yeomanry

    yeomanry Advanced

    This has been confirmed a couple of years ago. Daytora i presume?
  6. spiro_spula

    spiro_spula Forum Connoisseur

    SWs can equip red, use mind control for 0 essence and then cast 3 or more frost novas, also for 0 essence each. Does nice damage for 0 red 8)
  7. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador

    Does red essence increase mind control's victim's damage?
  8. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    1. It is bad. You are still spending red essences. I am playing with hunting traps ... I do over 100K damage per trap ... without spending essences. So I guess 100K damage without spending essences is better than "up to 36K" and using 6 essences. Furthermore ... I can use 2 traps in 12-14 seconds. That is 200K damage and not a single essence spent.

    2. You seem to forgot that wolves are instantly dying if the boss hits them ... or even mightier mob. So ... you spend 6 essences in vain. :D
  9. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    You're doing 200k damage against a single target, with hunting trap? The 36k is against a single target. The wolves health and resist are based on your own. My wolves take 2 hits from a mortis swipe and fall on the third. A breath weapon will kill them, so timing is of course important. Against Khally you cast them on the back away from the tank. They time out before dying. I can't think of a mightier mob that takes them out. They stay up against Gorga and Sigri's ice blast. They even stand full time against Bear paws' sweep. Destructor does take them out pretty quick.

    Thats awesome!! Time for a nerf SW thread hahahaha.:p
  10. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    I didn't said single target ... I said per trap. and cool down for HT is 8 seconds.
    Actually I have done Sargon events without using essences on first forms... only on last Sargon form.
    Yes you cant put HT on Khalys and Gorga because they are static bosses ... but you can on every other endgame and event boss.
    BTW I don't use wolves ... but Wood Wraith ... it is more reliable, heals you better and doesn't die like wolves. Even essences spent on Wood Wraith have more worth than spent on wolves.
  11. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    Yes, my point was, why are you comparing HT and its AOE damage against a horde to 36k against a single target. Not a valid or accurate comparison.

    Just curious why you think essence spent on Wraith would be more useful? As mentioned my wolves hold up just fine. Wraith does have more health than the wolves, but it's damage is only 1/3 of the wolf pack. Which means its heal (if you use that talent) is only 1/3. The only utility i've seen for Wraith is it's mini-stun ability for pvp which doesn't work on bosses. And it's a nice wall, like wolves:eek:.

    Good discussion now.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  12. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Damage dealt both by wolves and wood wraith depends on your base damage. Wolves are dealing x3 damage in the best scenario (but most likely they will not) ... wood wraith is hitting multiple targets with one blow (5,7,10 ... depending how many mobs are around). Thus your remark is incorrect ... wood wraith is healing a lot more than wolves. I release wood wraith only when my health is almost 0 ... and watching how it is filling 50% or more ... with one blow. This enables me to tank any boss even with quiver ... at least until the wood wraith is active. :D
    Even on single target wood wraith is hitting harder... I have tested this on single miniboss anywhere on parallel worlds. Just notice how much health monsters are losing with a single blow. Just look on their health bar.
    Not just that ... wood wraith is stunning and marking opponents. No other class can stun a boss like Destructor or Mortis but ranger with wood wraith. And because monsters are stunned ... wood wraith doesn't have to chase them like wolves are doing ... just stun and hit nice and slowly. :D

    Therefore ... essences spent on wood wraith are much more useful. ;)
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  13. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    I hate long posts (go to the Conclusions part if you don't care about the how/why stuff)
    I wanted to get the exact numbers so I could compare the damage on equal footing. Of note; this thread never recommended you add essence to throw wolves into a horde. It was a suggestion when fighting bosses for quick additional damage. Of course Wraith has an advantage against multiple mobs and as you will see below by the damage as long as it can hit 3 mobs or more with every swing it would do much more overall damage.

    As a control and to get more accurate numbers, I removed my helmet, shoulders, and chest piece and ran without them for all fights. I use the Witch Chaser Gear and it widened the min/max damage to far to assess the damage% the wolves and Wraith were doing without running a chit ton of samples. I also cast the Wolves/Wraith directly next to the boss. Wraith moves slower than wolves and I did not want speed getting to the boss to be a factory in determining the damage. No essence was used as it would be the same result for both. I didn't get overly creative with the bosses, since each fight would be the same regardless of who was fought. I picked these cause it was easy to test and repeat. I fought each miniboss listed below 15 times. I actually recorded this mess so I could replay the numbers and be accurate. I rounded slightly for Christoff.

    Without the gear mentioned earlier my base damage was 1210-1347 for all tests.

    Miniboss: Christoff Stalgard
    Wolves attack 24 times each in the 15 second spawn period. Each attack averaged 250 dmg per strike.
    Resulting damage 24 x 3 x 250 = 18000 damage. The average equals ~58% of base damage.

    Wraith attacks 12 times each 15 second spawn period. Each attack averaged 720 dmg.
    Resulting damage 12 x 720 = 8640 damage. The average = ~56% of base. Of note Wraith did not stun Christoff.

    Miniboss: Golden Dragon Stalgard
    Wolves: Each attack averaged 248
    Resulting damage 17856. ~57% of base

    Wraith: Each attack averaged 703
    Resulting damage 8436 ~55% of base. Of note Wraith did not stun dragon.

    Miniboss: Witch (whatever her name is) Grotto PW
    Results were very close to Golden Dragon and Wraith did not stun Witch.

    I did not see a need to continue with more bosses after I killed the first three as I didn't want to shoestring a group with a sub par capability.

    CONCLUSIONS: Wolves damage was about 110% higher overall. They would have the advantage against any single mob. If Red Ess was used on the Christoff fight above(pointless btw) the damage difference would be 72K and 34.56k. This means that even if one of the wolves died before it got a hit off, the two remaining Wolves would still out damage the Wraith.
    Wood Wraith does hit harder, but fewer times and for less overall damage.

    For hordes or multiple mobs, Wraith would do more damage if swipes hit at least three mobs per swing. The more mobs available the higher the damage increase would be. The Wraith did not stun any of the mobs I fought, and dont remember ever seeing it lock up Khally or mortis. Not sure how when that mechanic works on bosses. Maybe someone can elaborate. One interesting thing for % of base damage. The Wraith was consistently a couple of % points lower than the wolves. I think they are both around 70% base damage, with armor reduction and rounding the multiple lower hits by the wolves is reduced a bit less so overall it scored a tad higher. IDK just spitballin that one.

    I assumed the damage for wolves would be 3 times higher, this was inaccurate. The quick math I did to come up with the original 36k statement in the original post was inaccurate and way undervalued. With my normal base damage this would be closer to 100k if the wolves were on the target at cast.

    If anyone would like to test and verify or challenge, especially on bosses:p, please add to the conversation. I learned a ton from doing this, although I still stand behind my OP. Red Wolves FTW

    BTW: this is what this forum should be. A discussion of ideas and shared experience. Thanks to all that contribute.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2014
  14. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Well you don't have to make long posts. :D
    Descriptions of the skills and talents are pretty accurate. Now ... when you are testing something you have to do it naked (no equipment at all) this way you get more accurate results because you are avoiding random crits and min/max damage gap. However it is not necessary.
    You are right about wolves on single target dealing more damage than wraith. But ... there are other things to have into the consideration ... you and me might have strong characters ... and our minions can strike harder and can be more resistant. But for an average player wolves are dying very quickly ... for an example Khalys can kill all wolves with single swipe.
    Wood Wraith can't be killed that easily.
    Most of the bosses summon minions ... and there is the advantage of he wraith. Imagine Mortis with souls and Knights around ... marvelous situation for healing. Don't forget that both wolves and wraith have healing purpose ... not attacking. Combined with Wolve's Tribute skill (which I use ... i don't use Direct Blow) you are almost in god mode.
    About that stun. I guess you can't recognize it because you are not experienced enough with wraith. There is no boss that wraith can't hold. Stun maybe is not appropriate expression ... description says it correctly : "Activating the Wild Pack summons a powerful wood wraith that can mark and hold all enemies close by".
    That means that is not a typical stun ... target can strike but can't move. You can recognize it by roots animation on target. Here is my screenshot:


    Kristoff has a ranged attack so he don't move too much ... best way to spot the difference is to use it on Heredur.
    Even in PVP you can't revert this effect with level 35 pvp skill. Same goes for New Moon map ... you can't revert the slowdown from the woods.

    But now we are off topic :D

    On topic ... I stand on my saying about using traps for 0 essences. It is not just tested but used by me countless times.
    For an example I will take the Winter Solstice Festival. I can kill the bear without spending a single snow essence.

    Of course we are sharing our experience on forum ... new players can learn something after all. :D
  15. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    Bauhahahaha, I am so gonna try that!!

    Thanks for the exchange my friend.
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