Feedback Release 169

Discussion in 'Discussions on Current Topics' started by teddy.bear, Jul 13, 2016.

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  1. ElveElve

    ElveElve Someday Author

    This. This. This. This. This.

    This is exactly why the ranger class is useless in PVE now. there is no sustainability factor. I use the explosive arrow twice, then run around like chicken for 10 sec because i have no concentration left. Any other class can sustain the class resource (mana/steam/rage) easily, regain it etc. but as a ranger you have absolutely no way of doing that after your 'burst' of base concentration + adrenaline.

    How do you expect to achieve balance when you have dwarf doing 400% dps while ranger spams with 60% dps with green arrow ? (speed factor ignored)

    This is the main problem. My main war can clear q3 3boss in less than one minute, as a ranger i must wait for the resource to replenish.

    Listen to this guy, he has made a valid point. For instance, remove the flat target damage on explosive arrow, instead make it 400% area damage, why the 'main target' damage anyway? 220% is what tesla does in 1 second, why u want to keep it at 250% for rangers is beyond my comprehension.

    Make the class more 'sustainable' over time, this will help PvE, and remove the stupid one-shot mechanics in PvP. The 'burst' idea was once cool, but given the current game mechanics is just way way way too obsolete.

    Cheers.
     
    Gevilson likes this.
  2. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Oh, I see, make it so that no one would go to a boss without a ranger.

    As I've said before, RAs are already plenty powerful in PVP. In fact, a long bow/shield RA was the only one in 30 duels that gave me any serious trouble last night and he and I had about a 50/50 win rate against each other.

    And in PVE, the only imbalance is essence use due to relatively low damage (low damage... NOT low DPS) when using their higher damage weapon. I see a whole lot of people who are pissed that they can't play a RA like a SW and just sit back and do nothing but ranged attacks because they run out of resources. Thing is, a smart and talented ranger fights at least half if the time at melee range. Then they use their deadly bow to keep their concentration up. Also, smart rangers don't do two EAs back to back because it is a waste of concentration.

    Long story short, the biggest reason RAs are "weak" is due to poor play style. If you want to play like a SW, make a SW, same goes for DKs and SMs, but if you are going to play a ranger, learn to do it right and quit complaining because you don't know what you're doing.
     
    EhtovK, MikeyMetro and trakilaki like this.
  3. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Sorry to say this ... but you are not playing as it should.
    I am almost never running out of concentration. You need to learn to use the skills properly.
    I.e. you never fire 2 consecutive EA ... you mark the monsters fire one EA and use PS to kill them ... then use DB on some crippled monster just to replenish your concentration.
    If you can't do that because your set up is only damage oriented ... you will have to make changes and add some more HP, armor and resistance.
    You must be able to take some hits while killing the monsters.
     
    MikeyMetro and _Baragain_ like this.
  4. SUPERDOUPER

    SUPERDOUPER Junior Expert

    i agree with Theusen, dwarfs are simply op that they wont notice too much that so called nerf,, rangers will stay the most non wanted class for pve, but now all sm w
    i dont know what game have you've been playing but mages arent strongest class in pvp., oh yeah we have a hp skill but we need to kill something for it, very useful in pvp, dks and rangers are strongest in pvp, rangers with their op explosive arrow and berach bow are dealling crazy amount of dmg and still have shield, yea rangers are the weakest class in pve but in pvp one of the streongest, and this r169 havent done much to change the balance, sm will not even gonna notice it, this game is dying , slowly but steady,
     
    Theusen likes this.
  5. wangwang

    wangwang Active Author

    Did not say a word about PVP,read before whine.

    I don't mind if ranger gets a buff to boss,it helps the group.If he can take advantage of it(solo),don't mind it either.
    I am sure most of the old ranger players know how to play right,but there is no doubt ranger is not as good as mage in PVE.The biggest problem is marking and regen.
    Marking is much more difficult when there are too many mobs.The unmarked run before the marked,blocking Precision shot and wasting marking duration.when mobs move,they need to be marked again but AOE marking skills have cd or consume concentration.It is safe to say that ranger needs much more strict environment to do some massive dmg output where all of the other classes don't need and do equal or more dmg.
    The other problem is regen.Regen requires to kill a mob with deadly strike that means you need to have high enough dmg to kill the mob faster than your group and enough defense to get into close combat.I don't see new rangers get any of those.And the biggest problem is boss fight.No mob to kill and there are many situations that even thought a ranger has run out of concentration,he dare not get into melee combat.Many rangers choose to stand still and shot hunting arrow and waste everybody's life.
    I am not saying to buff ranger in every aspects,it is fesible to lower the difficulty of marking in PVE and enhance boss fight(not always have a wall) without affecting PVP.Ranger needs skill to play and has no support,i think they deserve a little buff in group play.

    When i tank for a q3 random group,i only expect that everybody does their basic job mage spamming frozen sphere/singularity,dwarf use tesla corectly,but i cant think of anything that a ranger should do except keeping alive and saving stones.It is sad.It is also sad to see what many new rangers say when grouping "don't kick,good ranger".And it is too sad that some good rangers get kicked immediately without even saying a word.
    Strong ranger might not care about the buff i suggested,but i think new rangers gonna need it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  6. ekant1992

    ekant1992 Padavan

    Well to be a good DK you need same stuff; A well balanced build and still people spam DK is OP, it requires hard work to build any character right, you can't expect to have a full on end game build as soon as you reach 50 and get access to PW.

    You won't mind but there will be a big backlash from community saying that rangers are now OP in PVE if that ever get implemented.

    For this i would just quote what baragain said.

     
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  7. Theusen

    Theusen Padavan

    First of; let me congratulate the BPteam for actually fixing a releasebug before the weekend! I havent seen that done before, except when a releasebug benefits the players... I still find it strange, that releasebugs like this exists, when U consider that BP has a testserver and massive feedback from stableplayers and moderators... But maybe thats just me?

    Could not agree more!
    They need something allright! And Ur suggestion is not half bad IMHO! (I personally still think mine is better;))

    DKs are OP in PvE! -Thats just a fact! Saying things like: "it requires hard work to build any character right" does not make them un-OP! Thats like the worst argument ever! When a class can solo all the Q-bosses, with a minimum of effort, and the other classes cant, then that class is OP! -Its not rocketscience! ;)

    -But the bottomline is this: Last twitch Greg told us all about how difficult it is to tweak classes and still keep them balanced... But the BPteam agrees that Rangers and Dwarfs need tweaking!
    OK let me leave U guys with this to ponder: Did U really think, that the tweaks U implemented was good or even a leap in the right direction??? -And could U guys have done a better job if U listened to the feedback, or even better started playing the Rangerchar and the Dwarfchar like we (the players) do, so U could see how severe the problem really is?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  8. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    You lack creativity. The good ones are right behind Heredur filling in the gaps with deadly blow. If you have a smart tank, they hold the boss by the wall for double damage off of HA and PS. They are throwing out a tree or wolves if the tank loses control which is a move that can keep the team alive instead of getting wiped out. Done right, with a low speed, high crit/crit damage build, they are just as valuable as a SM, sometimes even more valuable. Personally, I actually have a harder time finding SMs for my team, but I always know that I can count on picking up a good RA because they do have a harder time getting a group, and the best RAs make it worth my time.
    The good ones do. If you play glass cannon, you shatter easily. That is why I'm one of the biggest advocates of balance. Even my 2H build is balanced. Outstanding offence, but a very strong defense to go with it. The best rangers make use of the tank holding agro (doesn't mater if it is with the agro skill or with damage) and the duck in and out of the combat to pick off the weak ones to keep their concentration up. Factor in the HP regen from killing a mob with Deadly Blow and you have a winning combination on your hands. Going back to the idea of "well rounded," RAs have the unique advantage to use a shield while also using their higher damage weapon. If you can't achieve balance without, you can sacrifice the crit for increasing your survivability by a factor of 1.5-2.5 with a shield. You lose 15%-25% crit chance, but you have significantly more flexibility.

    I know you are talking about "new rangers" but the changes that you are suggesting will take very good to expert rangers and make them godlike. You are talking about balance, but you really mean "I want to be the best so that everyone invites me to the party." Yes, RAs need some love, but not like you are talking about. I'm still all for giving RAs a cross bow or some crap like that that takes both main hand and off hand and leaves the RA without a quiver or shield, but the I think we'd find that many RAs would end up reverting back to long bow and quiver as natural selection (the best builds are the ones that people would use) does it's work.
    And that is why I'm fine with what I said above about a true 2H weapon for a RA... then they can't complain about essence use and they have to chose between essence use or more versatility.

    Buuuuuttttt, none of this matters since everything I say gets ignored by BP even though it is clear that I apparently think things out in much greater depth than they do... How about tomorrow I analyze an attack combo that maximized damage output for a RA against a point target, like a boss (since none of you want to think creatively beyond "Spam EA/PS and use HA while concentration regens"). Consider it my gift to RAs everywhere.

    The only reason that DKs can pull it off while the other classes can't is because of HP regen. We can stand toe to toe with the boss and take more than one hit. But, without that ability, tanking would be impossible for all the other classes. So, to make the DK non OP in that regard would require a nerf that would then kill everyone's ability to do boss runs.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------​
    Side story... Do you remember Santa in the Nightmare map? I'm talking about the one from shortly after LVL 45 was released. Doing it in a group was out of the question because he had so much HP and he regened HP with a spin even if he missed (loved that bug BTW) and the heal gave him back about 40% of his HP. He was in the map with Big Paws. Now Big Paws was relatively easy for everyone to solo. He was slow, had a very predictable pattern of attack, and all you needed to do was not get hit. On the other hand, Santa was next to impossible since if he ever got within range, he did one spin and had most of his HP back.

    Here is how RAs and SWs handled it:
    Kite him and Big Paws around for a bit while killing off Big Paws. Once Big Paws was dead, all of the turrets around the edge stopped and you were able to kill Santa by kiting and occasionally letting loose a couple fireballs or arrows. It was time consuming, but easy since he never got within range to use his spin and heal (which healed him even if it missed). As said... easy.

    Here is how the DK did it:
    Not many DKs wasted the time. They simply killed Big Paws, got their drops, and left. But if you did that, it was impossible to kill Santa because the turrets around the edge played a crucial part of killing Santa. Basicly, you would take a hit from a couple of turrets to generate rage. Then you would drop a Dragon Frenzy and keep running. Eventually, after about 20-30 min, you killed him, but if you made one mistake and he got close enough to use a spin, you lost 10 min or more.

    It was the same tactic that needed to be used against Dragan in the Sargon events... RAs and SWs had an easy time kiting him up the stairs, jumping across the barrier, and then taking pop shots before jumping back across and repeating the process, but DKs were lucky to survive a couple of hits and overcome his healing abilities.


    Now, assuming you've stuck with me this long, here is the point. Sure, bosses these days may not have the game breaking damage/healing abilities of those two, but if DKs were nerfed to the point where they couldn't heal enough to solo the bosses these days by going toe to toe, they also wouldn't be able to heal enough to tank. Then the game will go back to the point where the ranged classes were the only ones who could do anything to the moving bosses and that would be with kiting and pop shots and DKs could only do anything with kiting and Dragon Frenzy. That was no fun for anyone back then. It would be even less fun now as the game would lose any semblance of cooperation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
    bLoodZ, ekant1992 and Theusen like this.
  9. wangwang

    wangwang Active Author

    I am not saying build a tank is easy,it is not easy building any class,it is just new ranger are having a hard time than other classes.They don't have support which requires them to deal dmg i suppose,but new ranger actually do more dmg than new mage or dwarf?.

    i am done here.Since i don't play ranger,it is suspicus to advocate for them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  10. ekant1992

    ekant1992 Padavan

    You have hit the spot, we can either have game without tanks or we can have a game with DK's having solo ability.

    One way(and a stupid one at that; yes i am calling my own idea stupid) to balance this would be to reduce the regen for dk's based on whether they are 2h or not.(note this would possibly kill all their solo capabilities as it would destroy 2h builds for them completely). BP please don't read this XD



    And as for the review on the release, this one is one step in the right direction if we ignore that PW bug, but its a long way to go.
     
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  11. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Note to mods... please don't delete the conversation. It isn't off topic. When a release focuses heavily on balancing, you can't be shocked when much of the feedback discussion turns to balance debate.
     
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  12. Theusen

    Theusen Padavan

    -And heres the good way to fix that: Make DKs regen depend on how many players are on the map AND in team with the DK!
    1 player -> 0% of current regen!
    2 players -> 25% of current regen!
    3 players -> 50% of current regen!
    4 players -> 75% of current regen!
    5 players -> 100% of current regen!

    -As U can clearly see, it is VERY easy to fix with a minimum of imagination!

    Cheers!
     
  13. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    And how does that effect PvP since we know that the devs don't seperate skills there? Considering a DK has to chase a target down, without HP regen, there is a good chance they'd never survive more than one chase. Also, a funny thing is, I can actually kill mobs fast enough to farm enough HP that I don't even need heal. It is mostly out of convenience, but what about the lone DK trying to work his way through Lor'Tac? There aren't exactly a lot of groups there anymore.

    If something like that did happen, then I do one of two things. Either quit because it is the last straw, or not help anyone but my closest friends out of spite. Also, if you are looking to so seriously nerf DKs, then what survivability do you take away from the other classes? Maybe a little less run speed to make it harder to stay away from mobs unless you are in a full group? Or maybe we should take damage away from everyone while not in a full group so that the DPS classes feels it where it hurts too.

    It's like the old saying goes "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." Your "minimum of imagination" is indeed very minimum. With creativity like that, pretty soon DSO will shut down for good, and I don't think even DSO's developers are that short sighted.
     
    ekant1992 likes this.
  14. wangwang

    wangwang Active Author

    I think that is basic.Every ranger should know that.But new ranger don't know the double dmg thing.I think old player is part of responsible for this,some might not be willing to tell everybody this hidden dmg in case of nerfing but i think this is simply a super small blast dmg from precision shot and hunting arrow.When the rear mob gets hit,the blast hit the front one that stand close.This is my understanding.

    Back in the old days, ranger was forced to use deadly strike because the hunting arrow cost 4 conc.But now HA cost nothing and all the blast of fire or frost in PW keep ranger in distance,and they don't have enough regen,hence relatively low dmg,if there is no wall in boss room, i doubt any team would deliberately invite ranger even a old ranger.Something supportive should be given to ranger.


    So the anger comes from the teammates.

    I am cheered:D
     
  15. Theusen

    Theusen Padavan

    Dude, relax! -As I said, that was just done with a minimum of imagination! Im sure there are better solutions out there! ;)
    But the problem persists! As I have stated earlier, this is a MMO-game! When a class doesnt have use for groups in a bossfight intended for groups, then that class is so OP that it either needs some kind of nerf, or the devs needs to change their description of DSO from MMO to MSO (Massive Singleplayer Online)

    ATM the good DKs simply have no need for other players in order to farm the good stuff fast! (Cept maybe the OP-dwarfs!)
    This is why it is so hard to find DKs (and Dwarfs) for groups ATM!

    What this game needs right now is the following 3 things:
    • Rangers needs a buff!
    • Dwarfs needs a nerf!
    • DKs needs a reason to play in groups instead of solo!
    -Its not excactly rocketscience! I know that DKs and Dwarfs will whine at first, they allways do, but DSO needs some PvE-balance and it needs it fast, or we loose the both the players AND the diversity in the game...

    Cheers!

    P.S. Regarding Ur side story:
    Yep I remember! Actually I am actually the creator of the "brigdebug" in the Sargonevent, we later used the same bug in a modified way to kill Herald when his gemdrops was sooooo sweet! And Im the whole reason why BP had to rework their entire aggrosystem! ;)

    And as I have stated above, the DKs needs encouragement to play in groups!
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
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  16. wenny0119

    wenny0119 Junior Expert

    I totally agree with this. My already weak ranger just got even weaker...what the hell. I can't even solo the Lor'Tac maps anymore, it was definitely easier to before. And now I'm sure I won't be accepted into any PW run group...

    My biggest question is, why does the hunting arrow deal only 60% of base damage whereas all the other classes' basic attacks deal 100% of base damage??
     
  17. ekant1992

    ekant1992 Padavan

    nope, not all other classes always deal 100%,

    SM do 60% aswell which can be made about 70% and fire damage same as your hunting arrowwhich can be turned to poision damage but you also get a 30% slow as well as penetration.

    As for SW they can get 100% with skill tree but without any elemental buff
     
    wenny0119 likes this.
  18. wenny0119

    wenny0119 Junior Expert

    Thanks, that makes me feel a little better...
     
  19. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    A "better solution"? ... like RA's marking also buffing other character's damage? Not double like it does for Rangers, but maybe all classes do 10% more damage to marked mobs.

    I try not to make bad suggestions because it seems like the developers only read those and think that it is what the community wants.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
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  20. taketh

    taketh Regular

    How does nerfing the dwarf affect you guys so much? You want the dwarf nerfed so you can feel better about how much you guys suck in pw runs? Maybe after the dwarf gets nerfed so that it is equal in damage to the ranger, you think that slots will be open for you? It is possible, but i dont see players willing to be downgraded. A tank that is used to killing a boss in 5 mins isnt going to start playing with noob rangers taking 20 mins to kill it because he cant find a strong player. That tank will either quit or solo. Meanwhile players resent you for nerfing them, and wont play even if it is to their benefit.

    Nerfing the dwarf in PVE helps you how much, while destroying the game for many players.

    I'm thinking about all those random rangers i helped in PW runs. Killing 5 runs of q2 etc for them because i know how difficult it is for a noob. Maybe that is my downfall, showing these noobs that dwarf is OP so they can beg for nerfs in forums after recieving help. I doubt anyone i actually helped is complaining because of probability but still annoys me thinking about it.

    If my dwarf was nerfed so that it was equal to the ranger, my stats would still be stronger than a lot of you could hope for after months of grinding, and yet im not willing to play the game. Im taking a break / quitting; i find it funny what you players are willing to accept as long as some other player you hardly know is also struggling.

    If i wanted to be as weak as a ranger in PVE, i would have made a ranger, and would have had fun pvping at least.

    Noobs struggling to kill lortac maps get an equal say. Sigh.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
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