Suggestion Remove Randomness from Crafting

Discussion in 'Creative Corner' started by KingKrazy1, Aug 7, 2018.

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Do you like the current crafting system?

  1. No, and I think taking randomness out would help

    12 vote(s)
  2. No, but I don't agree with taking randomness out. I would rather . . .

    6 vote(s)
  3. Yes

    4 vote(s)
  4. It is ok

    1 vote(s)
  5. I got lost and I don't know what you are talking about

    2 vote(s)
  1. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I voted in the other poll before the mods combined the two like threads. In this thread, I went with: "No, but I don't agree with taking randomness out. I would rather..."

    That is a ridiculous example. You are trying to equate people's rights to a company making money. Try again.
    Not completely, but money is one of the biggest considerations. It is all well and good to have a "great" idea, but if it has no chance of being implemented, then what's the point? I could make a forum thread saying "BP Should give all players 10k andermant free per month of continuous logins" and plenty of players would think that it is a great idea, but, because it has exactly a 0% chance of seeing implementation, then what is the point of making the thread? It is important to manage your expectations when requesting new features or changes or you will just end up bitter, jaded, and disappointed that all these "great" are being "ignored by the developers," when in reality, it never had a chance.

    I could debate on the effect that this sort of change would have on balance, but it would be a pointless argument since it is debating over an impossibility. That isn't to say that a system like this may not come some day. Metas change. When GoPs were first introduced, you could not remove them from the item you used them on without melting the item. That made people think long and hard about how they wanted to invest their GoPs. Times changed, and with the announced changes to crafting, the meta shifted and GoP removal made sense (GoP removal came a couple months before Crafting 2.0).

    I can do that with one simple quote: "Life isn't fair."

    That aside, it is related to my comment to Akageshi above. You want something that makes things more fair, but unless you can find a way to do that that earns BP more money, don't expect them to do it. In fact, the idea, as presented, would likely lose money. The biggest spenders in this game are the top couple percent of players and one of the things that keeps them spending is their push to always get better. With the ideas described, they would cap out within a couple weeks after the change and would have little to no incentive to spend. I like the Materi Frag system of buying uniques because now, if you farm long enough, you will get what you want, as opposed to one person getting lucky on their first run while another player can try and fail for months at a time. However, because the stats are randomized, there is still plenty of incentive for the top players to keep farming. Come up with another system that can address randomness while still keeping the business of the top players and you will have my attention.

    There isn't one. One way or another, it won't be fair. There are players out there with over 200k gold. How do I know? Because they recently had to raise the gold cap because people reached it. For them, just about any price you could think of, they could pay. But any price that was high enough to be "fair" to them would be wildly unfair to newer players. Conversly, any price low enough to be "fair" to them would be laughably low for those at the top. I know we talked about the end of leaderboards, but getting gold is not limited to once every two months. I easily farm 2k+ in a day, and if I have a day off from work, I can farm over 4k. Sure, because I'm a crafting nut, I spend most of that the same day, but farming gold would not be what limits the creation of these items.
    I've never shared this before, but what the hell. I wrote support back around crafting 2.0.2/2.0.3 with detailed feedback, and I got some response from the team. One of the things I said was that the ander cost felt too low. According to them, they considered this and it is set where they set it because of some of the underlying mechanisms controlling drop rates and gambling odds. They didn't give me the details, but they did say that it was deliberate and not going to change.

    I'm glad you like it, and while there can be less randomness, it actually increases costs if you elect to remove the randomness if my mathematical instincts are correct. I haven't done a full fledged analysis, and likely wouldn't unless they actually implemented the suggestion, but of all the "fix crafting" ideas I've ever heard of, I think it has the greatest chance of seeing the light of day.
    KingKrazy1 likes this.
  2. KingKrazy1

    KingKrazy1 Active Author

    I am not saying everyone should have an IDENTICAL game experience; I just want two players who farm together to mostly stay in the same power level to keep things fun.
    Thank you for this explanation. This is why many players want you to have more access to information on the devs thinking. I think now my naivete has been considerably reduced. Let me say again I like your suggestion (mode 2), and that even if something like my suggestion could work, crafting leg to leg must remain random.
  3. Akageshi

    Akageshi Forum Duke

    It's perfectly valid because the principle is the same :]

    Whenever I suggested something on this forum, I always tried to suggest a compromise already in the first post, so the idea would give something good (good at least in my opinion) to the players as well as to BP.
    You can imagine how everyone hated the ideas because they hurt the players. Obviously, everyone is always concerned with what's benefiting or hurting them in the first place, so if the suggestion contains a benefit for BP, people act as if they ignored the benefit for them and focus on how the benefit for BP makes their game so much worse.

    So yeah.
    Also, why not suggesting utterly ridiculous stuff? The idea can be really good and if the forum mods did their job well and forwarded the ideas to BP, which I doubt they really do, BP can easily take the crazy anti-BP's-profit idea and tweak it so the core of the idea remains, but also contains some compromise.
    As I mentioned in the first paragraph, people will mostly not vote yes on ideas that already contain compromised solutions. Crazy ideas that only benefit the players, on the other hand, might make it through the trial by voting and eventually to the devs' table.
    Buuut maybe I'm just wrong. Let's try it.

    I'm sorry but should I think we are supposed to respect or even promote stuff that is not fair just because life is not fair?
    Life is not fair because individual elements that make up life are made unfair by man or, which can't be helped, by nature. It's not the other way around with life being unfair apriori as a law that we are obliged to respect, let alone serve.
  4. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Yea I did ... it is useless.

    Now ... you wonder why the sarcasm.
    Isn't it obvious?
    You will never get this kind of feature in the game.
    If they change the crafting ... there is already existing model. That is Crafting 2.0. Search the forum ... Baragain and I were testing it before it was completely changed to the current system (Crap 2.1) ... mind you though ... you will probably not see all our comments because someone didn't like them and they were deleted.
    What was the difference?
    The difference was there were 4 slots and you could use 4 crafted legendary items in the process of crafting (no junk items used in the process). You would never lose a single item ... you would only have to roll and roll and roll until you get what you like.
    Example: you have 4x leg items ... each one has 3x gold lines. you place them on workbench and you roll the dice until you get leg with 4x gold lines ... and not a single item gets destroyed in the process ... unless you wish to proceed and craft the item.

    Not slightly but heavily confused.
    Here is why your suggestions are not likely to happen in the game.
    Because you are not familiar enough with the game and you are not aware of the consequences.
    Remember the Knowledge drop thread?
    People were asking for x2, x5, x10 drops on books because "it is frustrating to collect so much books for so long".
    I did oppose the idea and no one even seem to understood why. I knew exactly what will happen ... and tadaaa ... there it is ... you have drops of x2,x5,x20 ... but you also have a system of 200 levels with insane amount of wisdom to collect.
    All these "suggestions" are somehow pure miracle ... all of them are being suggested by new forum users who never posted before nor did they continue posting in the forum after "their idea" got implemented in the game ... even if the players didn't like it.
    Too much coincidence in few coincidental events isn't looking like coincidence to me.

    Here is what will happen with the proposed change in the crafting system. (something you are not able to foresee)

    The proposed crafting system gets implemented.
    Then the drops go down the drain.
    Suddenly you don't have enough resources to craft a single item ... even magic item ... after one month.
    The suggestion of making the prices go up high so you can have "better crafting system" will land down to your head.
    You will need 5000 gold to craft one item ... but you will not be able to collect more than 5 gold (10 gold for gangbangers) per day.
    It will simply need 1000 days to collect the gold.

    Is that what you looking for?

    Who will benefit the system?
    Of course the biggest benefit would have already OP players (old and new) and cheaters.
    The rich are getting richer ... the poor are getting poorer.
    What is the benefit for the regular and the new player?
    There isn't any.

    You didn't suggested that ... but that is what you will get.
    You wanted the best ... well ... it couldn't make it.
    So here ^ is what you get.
    wolfie54, KingKrazy1 and _Baragain_ like this.
  5. KingKrazy1

    KingKrazy1 Active Author

    I don't understand what is useless about wanting a group of players to play the game from level 1 to 55 to endgame together and at relatively the same power level all the way through.

    That aside,
    I actually like the new wisdom because it is steady progress. I go a couple levels every week, and slowly progress. I do see how this system favors the casual players, not the "hard core" players, and I am definitely a casual player.

    Yes, I am a new forum poster, but I have been playing the game (albeit casually) for more than 5 years, so I do feel like its ok for me to post suggestions even if I don't understand by experience the maxed out endgame grind.

    No, not really. And here we really see the difference between a casual player like me and a forum/game god like you. I am an idealist and made the suggestion for what would be ideal for me. I then gave my reasons for why I thought it could be beneficial for other groups as well. To be fair to myself, I did say
    But then, you and Baragain, pointed out what would really happen, curb stomping my dreams into powder.

    This is why I came to the forum. I desperately want this game to be as fun and enjoyable for all players as I believe it could be, and am unwilling to give up on it without doing everything I can to make that known to BP. It seems however, that the time for BP's repentance was about two years ago when BigPapa left, and my squeaks are way to late and not very relevant.
    Regardless, thank you trakilaki for the wisdom.
  6. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Ambassador

    Well, you're both right and wrong there, Traki.

    While it's true that when eg. improving drops, they make eg. more of the drops needed... But taking the example of the new (3rd tbh) knowledge tree... of course, they did increase the drops as suggested and give 200 levels. However, how long did it take to max the previous (2nd) tree? Over 200 days doing 6 challanges every day. 220 days doing the knowledge challange every day in the previous dailies system. That's with mentor bonus flip-flopping, without it it's double the time. While now maxing the tree takes more time, having level 50-55 gives the similar profit as prior to r209. Hence it's faster to reach what was cap before for similar (or possibly better) rewards, and you can grow beyond that. Is it that bad?

    All in all, I don't think they would be that generous regarding to crafting though. It's the main tool of character progress and even if they wouldn't put such a great grindwall (or paywall) on it, some... thoughtless people (so that mods won't edit it out)... would come to forums and support, and whine themselves out how bad it will be and that it'll be too easy and so on (yes, I do remember what was happening with crafting 2.0... the same was happening regarding r208/209, that's the reason we still have bosses completly immune to negative non-stunning effects and with cooldown of 30 seconds on stuns, which are, it seems, all set to 1s duration).

    And once again, a second major thing you are right there about: Crafting 2.0 (the very first version) is the solution to all the crafting problems. Not some strange enchantment-choosing mechanics, nor the "items of enchantments", nor any other crap.

    --- MERGED ---

    True... But if they do their work the right way, they earn the people's respect. If you are going to be a romantic (see Romantism - epoch) who has ideals and suffers to Weltschmerz 'cause he can't change the world... well, that's not the way, if you complain that your life is tough - well, it will be if your ideals aren't realised in at least a part! But don't mix up ideals and ideas: ideals are general conceptions of what is the aim, and you stick to them. If you think that your ideas for reaching your ideals are always flawless... We had an example of how great ideals realized with use of bad ideas made a lot of mess in the world... a few countries in the world still have those ideas in "work". Ideal - fairness: idea - equality on everything. Sorry, it will never work. I think you know very well why.
    Also true... But that's not the case in this game.
    Once again regarding the out-of-game world... Those are simply fools, resistant to every wise argument and unable to provide any for their opinions, but going for them anyways... for various reasons. But you're kind of too eager to put on anyone a badge of "enemy", "narrow-minded" or "evil". That is not right, either.
    For example, when Baragain pointed out your damage calculator misses an enchantment type (in fact it had it, but not named properly and not in the right place), you, instead of fixing the thing, so that it's all clear, simply gave in. I have seen multiple suggestions by you that were not received very well and you instantly blanked the original post and gave in... That's not the way you fight for your ideals. At least not the way I do it.
    Luck based mechanics are nothing wrong if they are not stacked beyond reason, like in the case of crafting in this game and the game as a whole. Crafting 2.0 in its initial state would be the simpliest and best solution.
    See the spoiler with a reply straight to you. You give up very often where you could very well fight on, by both advancing and retreating whenever it's needed. Start applying your advice to yourself, you'll see great results. Trust me.
    The Hell is paved with good intentions. That being said, intentions don't matter. What matters is the outcome.

    [ Quote removed ]
    Peace down dude... I sort of cannot believe it was you who posted that... Was it the organisation that is connected to the Path of the Musketeer in this game?
    Last edited by moderator: Aug 11, 2018
  7. bezryl

    bezryl Active Author

    something needs to change with this crap crafting, i am tired of farming hours and hours every day for weeks and it failing AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. give me a gold price ill pay it, 5k? np 10k? np reason is because i know eventually i will get what im after not *chance*

    this luck based crafting is pure garbage, i am at a point where i am stuck in tier 3 content and cant progress because i am unlucky with crafting, yes i get glpyhs/gems/ander exc but the progression i get from them is minor

    this luck based pile of steaming crap that is the current crafting is gating players from progressing their characters and if they are not lucky they will make next to no progress, what is the point of playing when you cant progress?

    i really like dso and have for quite some years but if i cant progress my character im really close to quiting
  8. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    My man then you havent understood anything. I tried tryhard when the wisdom started now im 125 lv and the runes are almost max guess what those who play casually are slowly progressing while im already having a portable shop with maxed out defences so i can tank and sell at the same time
    Tryharding is still a thing and for it better stays this way if i want to get smt by focusing rly hard on it why should i be rewarded less than a casual 1 -2 hour player seems unlogical right? Like working 10 hours a day every week but at the end the guy with 5 hours work a day get more money wrong right ?

    @bezryl progress from gems is minor ok....... this is some next level stupidness that im hearing

    @Traki ye i have also seen seen that some new forum members just make 1 kilometer long post and the idea is immediately implemented or ppl who are new as speak from the name of Bp or make official announcements in different threads so ye something is fishy you know what i mean
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  9. KingKrazy1

    KingKrazy1 Active Author

    Well it seems the wisdom is actually working well for both of us. The reason why I said it favored casual players was not in isolation, but relative to the crafting. In order for crafting to improve one's uniques, they must get 3/4 leg which will take a lot of gold and grinding. However, with the wisdom system, they can play casually and constantly be progressing. Obviously, a try hard player will gain much more progress, but what I believe Trakilaki was saying in reference to the wisdom is that it takes a very long time to max out. As a casual player, I do not want to max out, I want to slowly progress ad nauseam and constantly be engaged in new content. I was assuming earlier that a try hard player would want to get to the top of the mountain as quickly as possible and stomp all the noobs in the valley.

    I know I spoke highly of this method above, but I actually have a question about it after further engaging my mind. If the cost of Blue to blue is the same as blue to pink, and the chances are the same( I.e. 1/1/0/0 to 2/2 blue or 2/3 pink), why would I ever do same rarity crafting? Somewhere in my previous thinking I reasoned 1/1/0/0 from blue to blue would be easier than 1/1/0/0 from blue to pink, but I no longer see how this is possible. Some further explanation I require.

    After thinking some more about my suggestion and Baragain's explanation that maxed out players have all the gold (literally all the gold), let me respond to the never implemented crafting system. I am totally fine with it. While it does not remove randomness, on average it would have the same effect as my system. That is, if we implemented 2.0, and did not change gold prices, my calculations above would accurately give all the costs and probabilities, so the only difference between that system and mine is that a player would actually have to click to revert a bunch of times. However, because it is very similar to my suggestion, the problem of maxed out players having all the gold is still a problem. It is a slightly reduced problem because maxed out players are not looking for gold lines, they are looking for the top 1% of the enchantment or what I would call gold-gold lines. However, once they could find six of these they could instantly craft a 4/4 leg (this instantaneousness applies both to my method and also 2.0) Thus, I think the best balanced approach to fixing crafting is to implement either my suggestion or 2.0, both work similarly, for increased rarity crafting. That is, if you go from blue to pink or pink to gold you can either revert all items or select which enchantments you want and pay the extra gold. But, when you want to do leg to leg, you will be forced to have a random craft and lose the two junk slot items if you revert. This would mean a low level 55 toon has a reasonable way to get a 3/4 leg, which would improve the toon greatly. Once the player gets most of their gear 3/4 crafted, they move up into fatal-infernal 1 (maybe 2, idk), and here they start farming junk legendaries to try to get that 4/4. That is, 3/4 to 4/4 leg crafting stays the same as it currently is, no changes.
  10. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Because that is Utopia ... there will always be someone who lags behind and someone who is in advance.
    This game used to be all about making friends and group playing even if there were no bonuses and buffs.
    People didn't care much about who kills what and how fast.
    We used to play in groups and while playing we were not focused on the drop ... we were talking and joking and hanging around. We were having a great time and the loot was not #1 priority ... it was something you get while having a great time.
    Yes we were playing solo too ... but it was different than now it is.
    Me personally, i have never depending on anyone ... everything I have done i have done on my own without anyone's help. i am not the only one ... many old players have done the same in same way.
    If I were stronger than the other group members ... i never really cared about it. You are weak ... it is OK ... we will make those runs anyway ... who cares if it is 10 minutes or 5 minutes.
    Today the game is heavily anti-social.
    Players are only interested in loot and how fast they are doing it. That is not OK ... this was introduced by BP ... not by the players.
    There are no conversations and talking and laughing while playing ... everyone is focused on getting more in less time. If a player is feeling the other members in the group are not at his level they are being kicked out.
    That is not a group play and it is not making the game playable and enjoyable in group.
    Steady progress my butt :D
    You first start getting few levels in a day ... at some point you start getting a level in day ... then at some point you start getting one level in few days ... and then one level in one week and then a month ... and so on.
    People always forget that I am playing new characters at weekly basis ... I am not like the rest of the players who are playing their main toon and nothing else so they can get stronger. I am playing new characters from scratch frequently. In the past month I have leveled a SW to level 55 for and deleted it ... then I started 2 DKs ... one is level now and the other one is level 50.
    I also play on TS a lot.
    What i am trying to say is, I am not having a perspective on the game only from one angle. I am having a view from many many angles under various situations and circumstances.
    That is what gives me real picture of everything I am sharing both in forums and Wiki.
    You are all forgetting I am the one who is updating Wiki ... wiki is not meant for strong players ... it is meant to give a hand to new and casual players. You can't help anyone if you don't play the game on different levels with different approaches.
    So far ... in free estimate ... i have played over 200 characters.
    So you can't sell me that "steady progress" thing.
    One day.
    You are talking form your point of view ... and you are not a new or casual player.
    New and casual players can't farm the wisdom fast ... they don't farm Circus ... they don't have wisdom Runes ... and they can't make use of the mentor bonus.
    BTW it used to be x3 so it is tripple not double the time.
    Mentor bonus can be only effectively used by old players who are playing new toons on their account. It is not of any significance to new players.
    There are 1644097 points needed to max out the wisdom tree.
    New and casual players can make in average ... lets say 2000 a day. but those 2000 are average because they will speed up the progress a little bit as the time passes. At first they will be getting a lot less.
    So 1644097/2000 = ~ 822 days.
    If you referring only to level 55 it will need them almost the same time as before ... but their toon would be a lot weaker than it would be under the old system.
    BTW ... because of the aforementioned reasons ... and the lack of interest in the game lately ... i am only level 105 in Wisdom ... and i have +13 bonus from runes (3+3+3+2+2) ... and even if I am not playing much ... new players can't even come close to this progression.

    The problem is new players want to fast reach the old players.
    That is not possible under any scenario and it should stay that way. They will have to earn their way to the top.
    In same time the old and powerful players are constantly advancing in this never ending cycle ... that is wrong too.
    When powerful players are constantly advancing up ... they are doing it at much faster rate than the new and weak players are advancing to catch up with them.
    That is why they will never get there and the gap is widening more and more.
    There should be a limit ... how much one can advance. When you reach the limit you can only stay there and do things like trying new sets or playing events and playing pvp or anything. That way the new and weak players are actually having a real chance to catch up with the rest ... if they stay motivated.
    Introducing BS and broken items and making them uniform is not a healthy way to engage all the players and maintain a game alive.

    Cost in terms of enchantments.
    I don't quite understand what you mean by "same rarity" crafting ... same rarity crafting is only possible when crafting leg to leg. You can't craft blue to blue or exo to exo.
    If you have 4 magic items with 10.00% attack speed line and other X crap line you can use them
    10% / crap line |10% / crap line |10% / crap line |10% / crap line |
    and get a singe exo item with
    10% /10% / 1x random line.
    But as Baragain says you can use it as
    10% / crap line |10% / crap line |crap line / crap line |crap line / crap line |
    and get two
    10% /10% / 1x random line.
    exo items.
    same goes with exo to leg ... you don't have to use
    |10% /10% / 1x random line |10% /10% / 1x random line |10% /10% / 1x random line |10% /10% / 1x random line |
    but you can use only two exo items and keep the other two for another leg item
    |10% /10% / 1x random line | 10% /10% / 1x random line |1x random line/ 1x random line/1x random line |1x random line/ 1x random line/1x random line |
    and one more separate crafting of
    |10% /10% / 1x random line | 10% /10% / 1x random line |1x random line/ 1x random line/1x random line |1x random line/ 1x random line/1x random line |
    that way instead of losing 4 good exo items to get 1 leg item ... you can use 2 exo items in one craft and another 2 in second craft ... this way you will get 2 leg items with same outcome.
    Or you can even use only 3 items ... or you can even use 3 items with a single golden enchantment ... but it will reduce your chances.

    In the end ... when I would be doing leg to leg crafting ... I wouldn't have to use 4x leg items with 3 golden enchantments. I could even use 2x3 and 2 junk items like it is the case now ... however ... i won't have to farm more leg items because those two items would never be destroyed unless you accept the crafted item.
    This way you are saving a lot of gold (in terms of lost items during crafting).
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  11. sargon234

    sargon234 Commander of the Forum

    As someone suggested, crafting 2.0 is the solution, which the devs didn't implement because some heavy pyaing crybaby

    You could craft 4 3/4 leggendaries and not lose anything by reversing the craft
    That would make the grind much more bearable
  12. KingKrazy1

    KingKrazy1 Active Author

    Yes, it has only been steady progress for me for a short window of time and you are right to point out it will change for me. However, after some level (I haven't gotten there yet, and I havent calculated), you don't really make your toon thaaat much stronger. The health is maxed, the damage is maxed, the crit is maxed, then you get some armor/resistance, but after that, your toon can't really get op from the wisdom alone. At that point, you can spend on the bonanza and stuff, but it won't really affect your regular gameplay.

    I don't, and my suggestion to improve crafting is not intended to help the new players who want this. I want a reasonable way to get new players to solo fatal or inf 1, but then have a hard time getting 4/4 legs and solo the highest infernal.

    I completely agree with this, and albeit without the whole picture in my mind, I am trying to think of ways this could happen. This is why I would want either my suggestion or the crafting 2.0 system. Also, I think there should be something for maxed out players to do. I think making it more enjoyable to get 3/4 legs would lead people to mess around with more sets. Also, I think there should be a side grade system of enchantments for infernal levels. That is, maybe weapons should do elemental damage and there should be a whole other enchantment slot that made the weapon do x% more elemental damage of a certain type. This would be balanced in a certain way to do more damage against some enemies and less damage against others.
    Same rarity crafting was the "method 2" of Baragain's suggestion. I would say I completely understand the current crafting system.
    yah, but then maxed out players with oceans of gold would instantaneously craft all gear 4/4 leg with top level gold lines like 4x 9.90-9.99 increased damage belts. Maybe they all already have this, idk, but there would be nothing left for maxed out players.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  13. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    Sorry to say it but thats the whole part of crafting. Once you get to fatal and inf 1 soloing them you can pretty much skyfast to the endgame. That is the whole problem.
    What i did is even with 14k dmg and 300% crit i still didnt touch fatal once i farmed like a mad man and got myself good 20k dmg i started going fatal and inf 1 and that was january btw now im an endgamer see the whole point is to get to be able to solo fatal inf 1 then you can get anything whenever your want with a little of resource farming.
  14. KingKrazy1

    KingKrazy1 Active Author

    But you would not say there is a problem with crafting 3/4 to 4/4 as it is currently, right? The problem you are saying, if I understand you correctly, is once a player can farm fatal/inf 1, there is not much game left. I also agree with this and that is why I said:
    I am still trying to think through the technical side of this suggestion before I post it in full. The short story is that there should be a lot more endgame sets of armor/weapons, with a much more deep and robust crafting system for maxed out players that does not involve turning 3/4 legs into 4/4. There should be something else. I think that something else involves elemental resistance and damage, but there is lots of space for creative ideas.
  15. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    You are right. It is the same odds to craft a 2/2 as it would be to craft a 2/3, and if the cost is the same, that would be a more than a little of a ripoff. Perhaps, we can use the crafting prices as they exist right now to make it more reasonable and based on the current framework.

    Improved -> Magic is x3.57 less expensive than Magic -> Exo
    Magic -> Exo is x8.0 less expensive than Exo -> Leg
    Exo -> Leg is x1.875 less expensive than Leg -> Leg

    Since there is no Legendary to "Devine" (or whatever the next tier could be called) to compare this to, maybe we should use the factor of 1.875 as a guide for how much same tier crafting should be.
    In this case:
    2.576x1.875=4.83 gold to craft magic to magic (as opposed to 9.2 for magic to exo)
    9.2x1.875=17.25 gold to craft exo to exo (as opposed to 73.6 for exo to legendary)

    The cost seems a little high for crafting magic to magic, but since the costs would be close and the odds aren't bad, maybe you'd just be better off crafting exos via 1/1/0/0. But, with this proposed price for exo to exo, you'd be looking at a significantly lower price, so maybe it would make sense here to craft 3/3s before moving on to 3/4s.

    This seems like a decent compromise, and the only better method I can think of is averaging out the cost for crafting a 2/3 from 1/1/0/0 and then normalizing that for the odds you'd see in same tier crafting... but given the developer's adeptness at math, I'm not sure I'd trust them to do that sort of intricate and in depth math.
    Yep... that is how we get threads like this, or this, or this.

    Well, I'd love to keep typing, but the mini just started on Agathon. If you'll excuse me...
  16. KingKrazy1

    KingKrazy1 Active Author

    I worked through the calculations to see how much gold one would save by doing 2/3 exo to 3/3 exo at 17.25 gold and then 3/3 exo to 3/4 leg. I obtained an average reduced gold price of 2175 vs 5041 (2 2 0 0 to 3/4). The only downside would be farming the extra 22 junk exos, which seems quite easy in comparison. So, it seems to me that the effect of this crafting system would be to reduce the amount of gold needed to craft 3/4 legs, but it would not reduce the randomness. Although I think this crafting method would make it easier for lower level 55 toons to get 3/4 crafted legs, I also think that this method is too complicated for casual players to get into. I think it would confuse all players who aren't mathematically inclined, which, in my experience of knowing other humans, is mostly everyone.
  17. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I had another thought a while ago that I forgot to include in my original lists of alternatives, and it is the idea of a single line reroll.

    The idea is simple. You can chose to reroll one line in a craft, but only one time per craft. Basically, if you got a 3 gold line legendary when you were trying to craft a 4 gold line legendary, you select the non gold line, pay a price in gold, and the line is randomly traded with one of the other available lines. In the case of a 3/3/0/0 craft, you would have a 25% chance to fix a 3/4 into a 4/4. This would improve your chance of success from 0.82% up to 3.57%, over all. And if you ran a 3/3/3/3 craft (already a 27.2% chance of success), you'd have a 2/3 chance of fixing a 3/4 craft for over all odds of 63.46%. Of course, that is still a 36.54% chance of losing 2x3/4 legendary items, but you can see how this would help. Here are just a couple common scenarios and what the odds would look like:

    Improved to Magic:
    Why would you even do this? The improve from 25% to 50%, but, depending on the cost, the only benefit is that you'd get two attempts from the same junk items

    Magic to Exo:
    1/1/0/0: Currently 3.57% chance to get a 2/3 exo. Would improve to 10.71%

    Exo to Legendary:
    2/2/0/0: Currently 1.82% chance to get a 3/4 Legendary. Would improve to 6.67%.
    2/2/1/1: Currently 9.09% chance to get a 3/4 Legendary. Would improve to 27.27%
    2/2/2/2: Currently 25.45% chance to get a 3/4 Legendary. Would improve to 59.39%

    Legendary to Legendary:
    3/3/0/0: Currently a 0.82% chance to get a 3/4 Legendary. Would improve to 3.57%
    3/3/1/1: Currently a 3.85% chance to get a 3/4 Legendary. Would improve to 14.11%
    3/3/2/2: Currently a 11.54% chance to get a 3/4 Legendary. Would improve to 34.62%
    3/3/3/3: Currently a 27.20% chance to get a 3/4 Legendary. Would improve to 63.46%

    These are way better odds, so the reroll would have to be expensive enough to justify the improved odds. That said, here is yet another system that can help manage the randomness without removing it entirely while also built in such a way that it can provide a measureable benefit to BP. In fact, if BP really wanted to monetize this, they could make this type of reroll crafting an "Ander only" option.
    KingKrazy1 likes this.
  18. Paavelson

    Paavelson Junior Expert

    maybe devs revork totaly crafting system. randomness is getting my nerves and probably everyones. only random thing is acceptable is drop wich is. q6 knight drops 5 runs straight blue items and 6th run pinks and then 5 runs again blue drops. and yes i can confirm they removed mortis ring from knight drop aswell with shield and weapon.

    every line we want to transfer to ...
    from green to blue gold or platinum line transfer cost 20 tellurian cores
    blue to pink gold or platinum line transfer cost 50 per each line
    from pink to legend gold or platinum lines transfer cost 100 tellurian cores per line
    crafting ofc take gold coins aswell. but with current system on ts is tooo expensive.

    make green blue pink leg cloacks with all enchaments available to craft. meaning 18% crit damage, 10% attack or run speed, 13% armor or resistance 11% crit. not them all. that we are able to craft just 4x like any other item.