Suggestion Shared stash of your DK

Discussion in 'Creative Corner' started by Balorien, Jan 29, 2020.

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  1. janooooo12

    janooooo12 Forum Greenhorn

    very few people play dk, the character received a large nerf in r222, is the weakest class in dso
     
  2. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Count Count

    You all guys are claiming that DK is weak without any math backup, and are giving some propositions on how to improve it... without actually counting what would it change and whether wouldn't it break the balance the other way (supposing the imbalance exists in the first place).

    So, anyone cares to give some math proof or you're going to repeat the the whining of the "stupid elfs" that led to ultimately breaking the ranger class by the addition of hoaxbows and making the Q7 OP?
     
    .RakshaRanja. and trakilaki like this.
  3. Gligana

    Gligana Someday Author

    Are you sure you are playing DSO? If you are in need of maths, do it yourself to make your point! Not all of the propositions are connected to values (I don't like such changes as well), most of them are connected to game mechanics (reworking some R209 incompetent skill changes).
    Even if I am sure this is just a troll opinion (I have read your last post, which has been moderated because of offensive language), decided to feed once. :)
     
    DBS-Flamelurker likes this.
  4. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    I agree. Math not always can show the reality ... especially when not everyone can understand math.
    The answer is really simple and I am about to show you that with a very simple test.
    I am not going to use my DK for the testing ... because it would be very biased approach, but instead I would like you to ask all of you in this thread ... just screenshot your DKs with the everyday farming gear and skills or just list them here in the thread.
     
    dwarfmageOP likes this.
  5. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Forum Pro

    Sorry but not in a DK thread or rather boards in general.
    People here are math resistant especially one of the loudest DKs on the boards - Phyrix.

    Half of the DKs dont even realize they deal similar damage to SWs.
    SW base DPS: 4.2 x 410 = 1722%
    SW vulnerable DPS: 913%
    SW neutral DPS: 689%
    SW resistant DPS: 431%

    DK rotation: 10 rage attacks + ground breaker + 18 smashes (with q7 buff)

    assuming that theoretical DK has 3.334 attack speed 10 rage attacks are executed in 2 seconds
    then ground breaker
    and 3 seconds for 18 q7 smashes
    for a total of 5 seconds

    DK base DPS: [(10 x 100) + 190 + (18 x 240 x 1.3)] / 5 = 1000 + 190 + 5 616 = 6 806 / 5 = 1361%
    DK neutral DPS: 545%
    --------------------------------------
    The fact that many DKs (including Phyrix) use Arachna as a staple comparison is just as manipulative as it can get.
    Arachna, as we all should know, is VULNERABLE to ice giving SW an advantage over DK and you can clearly see this in the numbers:

    DK neutral DPS: 545%
    SW vulnerable DPS: 913%

    913 / 545 = 1.675 times more damage dealt by SW on Arachna.

    Now on any neutral boss (lets say Grimmag) the difference is much lower:

    DK neutral DPS: 545%
    SW neutral DPS: 689%

    689 / 545 = 1.264 times more damage dealt by SW on Grimmag.

    The difference between neutral and vulnerable is colossal (41,1% DK DPS).
    --------------------------------------
    Now lets get RA and SM DPS as well

    RA is very simple: Q7 uptime is about 50%, more or less.
    RA DPS: 2.1 x 500 + 2.1 x 500 x 1.3 = 2415%
    RA neutral DPS: 966%

    SM DPS: (2 x 3 x 1.5 x 110% + 2.7 x 94% + 5.13 x 306) x 1.3 = (990 + 254 + 1570) x 1.3 = 2814 x 1.3 = 3658%
    With two more turrets its 4 342 but since keeping 5 turrets is kind of hard in a solo scenario lets ignore that.
    SM neutral DPS: 1463%
    --------------------------------------
    DK neutral DPS: 545%
    SW neutral DPS: 689% (x 1.265 DK)
    RA neutral DPS: 966% (x 1.77 DK)
    SM neutral DPS: 1463% (x 2.68 DK) (dont forget there's room for improvement here: x 3.18 DK max)

    And for the past (more than) half a year I never saw anybody mention that Ranger or Steam Mechanicus are OP and deserve nerfs. The only class that is a victim of constant witch-hunting is SW - class that's barely any better than DK when it comes to DPS.

    Yes, DK is THE WEAKEST class DPS-wise atm.
    Yes, DK deserve a SLIGHT DPS buff.
    RA deserve a SLIGHT DPS nerf.
    SM deserve a BIG DPS (single target) nerf and a SLIGHT DPS (aoe) buff.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  6. dwarfmageOP

    dwarfmageOP Forum Apprentice

    [​IMG]
    i hope it helps

    [QUOTE="689 / 545 = 1.264 times more damage dealt by SW on Grimmag.

    The difference between neutral and vulnerable is colossal (41,1% DK DPS).
    --------------------------------------
    Now lets get RA and SM DPS as well

    RA is very simple: Q7 uptime is about 50%, more or less.
    RA DPS: 2.1 x 500 + 2.1 x 500 x 1.3 = 2415%
    RA neutral DPS: 966%

    SM DPS: (2 x 3 x 1.5 x 110% + 2.7 x 94% + 5.13 x 306) x 1.3 = (990 + 254 + 1570) x 1.3 = 2814 x 1.3 = 3658%
    With two more turrets its 4 342 but since keeping 5 turrets is kind of hard in a solo scenario lets ignore that.
    SM neutral DPS: 1463%
    --------------------------------------
    DK neutral DPS: 545%
    SW neutral DPS: 689% (x 1.265 DK)
    RA neutral DPS: 966% (x 1.77 DK)
    SM neutral DPS: 1463% (x 2.68 DK) (dont forget there's room for improvement here: x 3.18 DK max)

    And for the past (more than) half a year I never saw anybody mention that Ranger or Steam Mechanicus are OP and deserve nerfs. The only class that is a victim of constant witch-hunting is SW - class that's barely any better than DK when it comes to DPS.

    Yes, DK is THE WEAKEST class DPS-wise atm.
    Yes, DK deserve as SLIGHT DPS buff.
    RA deserve SLIGHT DPS nerf.
    SM deserve BIG DPS (single target) nerf and SLIGHT DPS (aoe) buff.[/QUOTE]

    In your calculations, did you add the fact that SW can use karabossa pet and reach max attack speed WAY more easily then DK? for DK its pretty much impossible without attack speed pet or 4x gold lines attack speed cloack.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  7. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Forum Pro

    You need 2.8X as DK to deall max dps on Q7 and your q7 reset time being slightly slower (8.4 RA / 2s not 10).

    Whats even your argument here?
     
  8. dwarfmageOP

    dwarfmageOP Forum Apprentice

    No? you need at least 3.23 speed.....
    How convenient of you to not mention karabossa pet in your calculations xd
     
  9. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Forum Pro

    XD? Do you even play this game or just complain about other classes being OP?
    [​IMG]

    On top of that:
    DK Ground Breaker base cooldown is 10s
    With easily obtainable runes its 8s
    -3s from q7 (since the time still flows when you are DPSing during q7, cooldown doesnt stop)

    So you need 5s of cooldown reduction which is 5 crits with rage attack.

    Using my rotation numbers (5.13 rage attacks / s on 3.334) you need approx 1s to reset your Q7 (1.25 - 1.5 on 2.86 which is what I used) since on top of attacking 1 second is subtracted as well (so there's 4 rage attack crits necessary).

    Karabossa pet is equal to Asar in effectiveness - there's no point in mentioning stuff that's universal for everybody.
     
  10. dwarfmageOP

    dwarfmageOP Forum Apprentice

    Now you are just embarrasing yourself dude, that table is either fake or outdated, my attack speed in game shows 3.23 whenever i reach the max speed breakpoint, whenever its lower then that im not on the max breakpoint.
    And no, karabossa is definitely not equal to asar in effectiveness, it's a good 10% difference.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  11. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Forum Pro

    Great. Tell that to all DKs that use 2.86 and how they are wrong.

    Also, I will record a video just to prove you wrong but it will take a while :)

    You either deliberately missundersand or you just dont know what are you talking about.

    EFFECTIVENESS NOT BONUS VALUE.

    And even if they arent equal they are very close (the difference being few% DPS)
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  12. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Forum Master

    Thanks to OP healing potions with 1cd the only DK advantage is gone.

    Now DK has the "advantage" of 30% more life, but no range and less damage. Range is a defensive advantage better than 30% life, right?
    Worst armor break, no slowing effect, worst AoE, slow on the map and bosses.

    Ranger has better damage than Mage, true, but it doesn't have Singo and Golem, which make a lot of difference. Dwarf is another world...

    Anyway, I remember you already supported DK buff. I think you have a good knowledge of the game. But I don't agree with Ranger, I think Mage is better in pve.
     
    Gligana and dwarfmageOP like this.
  13. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Forum Pro

    You dont have to agree or disagree - numbers speak for themselves.

    Ranger has permanent 966% DPS while Mage has 413 / 689 / 913 (Mage's highest [only poison bosses] still being lower than Ranger's DPS)

    Conclusion comes from the numbers themselves not my subjective opinion.

    That's not a valid argument - Ranger doesnt have Guardian or Singularity but has other skills in their place.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  14. Gligana

    Gligana Someday Author

    Wrong. If you are beating the dummies in kingshill arena, may be. Dodging possibilities, armor break efficacy, tanking skills duration and variety, cdr should also be part of the equation. I wrote it a few times above - more "Kingshill damage" or more skill damage is not always more efficacy.
     
  15. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Count Count

    You're clearly misunderstanding the way the Q7 buff works for DK.
    Breakpoints of smash on the Q7 buff change, because it doesn't affect your speed - it affects the skill execution time regardless of the speed. That table is 100% correct. The "15" column is Rage Attack and the "10" column is smash on Q7 buff.

    Now take a look at a ranger without the Q7 set... it's the Q7 set that deserves a nerf, not the ranger class. Ranger deserves a buff as a class, without that Q7.

    It's not my fault that instead of fixing the class properly they started fixing bugs that weren't even bugs (astral phenomenon and then synchonicity), which brought mage from an underdog (practically) to a (not very strong normally) damage class with however great supportive tank-like ability (in group) and made killing bosses solo perhaps boring, perhaps not very fast, but quite safe and easy.

    All the classes deserve heavy changes and revamps, because they broke almost everything, everywhere. If they start working on a new skilltree with cooperation with community (like sharing the progress every stream and then looking through feedback here on forums), we can play on until they release it. Remember that the problems started with the "skills 2.0" update, aka the lvl50 skilltree. FS, EA, Outburst and Tesla are all problematic skills, even if they all could do with some changes to them and to other stuff.

    I'll repeat the two biggest problems with the current system:
    1. Each class is supposed to be played in at least a few different ways... the ways that are too different interfere with each other, because if a class gets a buff or nerf in possibilities in one field, suddenly it turns out that a different way (field) has been affected too and became somehow too OP... because the class can, eg., reach both high dmg and hp now. A subclass system would be a solution to this, because we could balance at least the general playstyle groups separately.
    2. The skilltree is not really a skilltree. You don't need to improve (put talent points on) frost wave to improve the frozen sphere for example, and maxing out the talents of mechanical turrent doesn't stop you from maxing out the automated turret too. There are no paths nor dependencies. A more complex skilltree would solve this issue, especially combined with #1 (subclasses). Of course, if some skills were limited, we would need some new skills, but we need them anyways - there's another expansion looming and we still haven't got the skills from levels 50-55.

    Trak, Raksha, Baragain (rip), me, and many other people have offered numerous solution to those and other issues (like 1h v 2h imbalance)... so far we don't see them being implemented (unless you count the gwen's jewels and sargon's offensive set as a start).
     
  16. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Forum Pro

    Even while sitting in singularity you have to constantly dodge.
    Armor break is BUILT IN into damage spell of Rangers - its much more convenient for Ranger than it is for Mage.
    Guardian is not a tank - it dies after 1 or 2 hits most of the time.
    Cdr is meaningless for anybody but DK (since they profit from banner and dragon hide) and Ranger's abilities have laughable cooldowns (8-12s) even without any kind of cooldown reduction.
    That is indeed correct - thought abbreviation on my side.
    Though not every Q7 is problematic (eg. Mage Q7).

    But yeah we're on the same page.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  17. Gligana

    Gligana Someday Author

    Armor break built in, armor break 8 sec + slow + cdr ... and armor break 4 sec in the middle of attack series needed for at least a descend damage - see any difference?

    Guardian IS one of the best tanking skills in the game.

    CDR is meaningless?!? My oh my ...

    Let me guess, you are playing a mage as main character?
     
  18. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Forum Pro

    @dwarfmageOP


    Yeah, the difference is very simple - mage has to spend time on casting singularity and then sitting inside of it while ranger just pew pews the boss with armor break attached to the main damage source skill.

    Ranger: Damage (EA) + Armor break (EA) + Q7 (EA)
    Mage: Damage (FS) + Armor break (Singularity) + Q7 (Meteor & Fireball)

    See any difference?

    When it is combined with magma shield. Without it it dies as fast as any other summoned unit in the game - sorry but 30% damage reduction from armor/resistances is laughable and that's how much guardian has on normal (idk if its affected by infernal debuff).

    Yes. If it isnt then please prove me wrong and tell me which skills it affects actually impact Mages' or Rangers' DPS.

    Teleport or Adrenaline as resource regen? - use resource pot.
    Meteor, Destruction, Bird, Wolves/Tree? - Pointless (Meteor being used only by folks playing on Q7 to activate it).
    Anti stuns? Laughable cooldowns already (BASE 20 for adrenaline or frost nova, 10 for teleport, 8 for jump).
    Net to activate Q7? Laughable 10s cooldown (in comparison to Mages' 60s ) with a 40% chance to RESET.

    Singularity is used only to slow bosses and reduce their mitigation (and that literally exist since what 5 - 7 patches?) and nothing else (maybe reducing portal cooldown but that's borderline pointless as well since the reduction is approx 2s and 1s cd resource pots exist so there's barely any reason to use it over a pot that is instant).

    That's irrelevant. Even if I do you should NEVER steep to this kind of logic in a discussion.
    If you're trying to discredit me by saying "oh you're a mage" then you're just discrediting yourself by using that kind of logic in an argument-based exchange by bringing something both irrelevant AND personal.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  19. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Forum Master

    Singularity slows down a boss very much, what other skill of the Ranger is equally useful excluding EA?

    For the rest I stop here, I have nothing else to add since you agree on a buff for DK.

    In general I agree and yes, the game is broken, especially after 220. The idea of subclasses is good but I think it will remain pure imagination.

    Too many useless skills and talents, 1H is weak compared to 2H.
     
  20. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Forum Pro

    And how long is this a thing? Merely half a year.

    And it never shouldve been a thing in the first place (any slowing effect nor armor break).
     

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