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Discussion in 'Dragonknights' started by Spyke00, Dec 26, 2013.

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  1. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Wait... Ranger? That was a Ranger we were talking about all this time? I guessed I missed that detail while we were chatting! I had assumed you were comparing yourself to another DK.

    That explains everything! You are looking at your base attack and his base attack. His base attack is 60-66% of his base damage (depending on if he picked the 5 point skill). Your basic attack is 100% of your base damage. No wonder your basic attacks do more damage than his.

    If you want to do direct comparisons between your damages, compared an unmarked precision shot with no 5 point skill with rage jump. Both have 125% damage so you will be comparing apples to apples.
  2. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    With the dark set sale, I was finally able to get the last two items I wanted for my build (torso and shoulders)

    This gave me a nice boost.


    Once I am able to obtain all the necessary cores to transfer my crafted items (not quite perfect 4 line stuff, but all 3 great line and some 3 1/2 stuff) I should finally get within seeing OP status :p Won't quite make it to that level, but won't be terribly far from it.

    With my luck, DK's will get nerfed before I can gather all the cores, but I'm quite happy with the progress nonetheless.
    bLaind and Zoltan like this.
  3. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    You can definitely see where the cores would make a difference. The crit is likely waiting on a % CHRotI decoration and the Crit damage looks like it is waiting for an amulet and couple of rings. Otherwise, I'd say that this is some rather nice progress.
  4. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    If I'm close in my math, once I add my current crafted items into the uniques, I should end up with right about 22K in crit (using my current Battle Axe of the Desert Tomb), 300% in crit dmg, 60% resist and 2.0 speed.

    As I am not sure what to do with Bearach hammer yet, no guess on end dmg. My gut tells me to wait for four lines of IDOTI instead of using 3 dmg -1 crit, but it is tempting to get that extra crit.

    Luckily I need a ton of cores before I have to make any decision.

    Right now, I'm using the following:

    Dragan Helmet, gloves and boots.
    Dark Torso and shoulders
    Medusa amulet
    Bearach belt (have the hammer in my locker, but haven't switched to it yet)
    Agathon Lost ring
    Ring of death
    Black queen Adornment and cape

    If I can get lucky during one of the occasional "Freemiums" and the rng gods grant me the Agathon lost amulet, I may seriously consider swapping out the one from Medusa to get the extra crit dmg bonus.
  5. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Baron

    Well I also got the darkness set and am lucky I guess.
    Now for my Q7 killer going to craft all damage in helm belt and torso.
  6. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I finally crafted my place holder 2H last night with 298.3% IDotI. I'll post the weapon over in the Crafting 2.0 thread.

    So, finally prepared for transfer crafting with a good weapon, some friends and I ran Q7 Inf3 and I bought the weapon... 4 times. I was incredibly disappointed with the results. I got 712, 742, 760, and 767 max damage from a 708-834 range. As disappointing as it was, I know I can always soul core craft down the road, so I decided to craft anyway with the 767 (958 max damage at LVL 60). I also had a pair of T4 gloves that I likewise crafted with the intent of soul core crafting them down the road. The other item that will be replaced today is my Medusa boots with the Bellicose boots. Because the reduction in tier of the Herald gloves vs the Bellicose gloves I'm currently using and the fact that I transfer crafted the medusa boots with HPotI, I'll lose significant amounts of HP and some armor, but by damage will go through the roof.

    You'll also notice in the first pic that my crit is in overflow mode and I maxed out crit in Infernal III. I went so far over because I knew I'd eventually lose the crit from my axe when I decided to make the switch to a 2H without crit, so I started making my build prepared for that time.

    Now for the Before and After. I also included my damage with reds since that is one of the deciding factors in this weapon change.



    Sure, the damage gain is good, but it is the damage with essences that I really care about. Now that my essence isn't getting diluted by the 110% damage on my last weapon, I get way more damage from my essences and that makes me really happy.

    +5227-6573 Damage (Greens)
    +17929-22583 Damage (Reds)

    -0.09 Attack Speed
    -10823 HP
    -425 Armor
    -4739 Crit

    I was expecting those losses, but I have plans to fix all of them.
    First, I'll finish crafting my HP boots and transfer those onto the Bellicose boots. That will recover most of the HP I loss and actually leave me with more than I started with.
    Second, I'll be upgrading my gloves to T6 with soul core crafting which will improve my HP and armor.
    Third, I'll be upgrading some of my speed runes from the upcoming moon events and via clovers to recover much of my lost speed.
    Fourth, I still plan to use the Darkness torso to get the 10% crit 2/5 set bonus and the 899 crit unique value.
    Fifth, I'll augment or soul core craft my Spider adornment to T6 and earn back even more crit.
    bLaind and Sanguinius94 like this.
  7. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    I'm curious, what made you go with the Q7 over the Q4?
  8. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Short version, Performance with essence.

    They both preform comparably with red essence, but the Herald set easily outperforms the Bear set with lower essence (blues/purples). Plus, if using the Bear set, I'd have kept with the Medusa set (boots) and that effect is still buggy as hell, so buggy in fact that I can't really consider it a significant source of damage in the comparison Here is a list of the problems:

    1. Malicious Water does not crit, so my x4 crit damage does nothing for them.
    2. Malicious Water sometimes doesn't do damage. I haven't been able to nail down the trigger of this bug, but it means sometimes it doesn't do damage at all.
    3. Malicious Water doesn't stack with itself, so instead of getting 30 seconds worth of DoT and three explosions against bosses, you only get 20 seconds worth of DoT and three explosions
    4. Malicious Water sometimes gets targeted by meteors (like Herald or Grim) and gives you more things to dodge.
    5. Malicious Water doesn't take essence into account. It does the same damage with greens as it does with reds, and if a monster requires special essence, then the monster is immune to the effect

    The other choice was the New Moon boots, but I don't like Max Damage buffs or temporary buffs. Or, I could have used the Darkness boots, but I'm sure I'll have enough crit with my current plan (and the HP losses *shudders*), or I could use the Bellicose boots and replace the ring (most likely of these choices), but I'm not sure what ring I'd pick.
  9. DJBarman

    DJBarman Active Author

    Dont underestimate items with temp buffs belive me there will come a time when the only time you wont have the "temp bonus" will be when youre offline or selling :D
  10. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    When I say "temp bonus," I'm talking about the 10 second stackable buff from the Twin Queen set that is next to impossible to keep at full when running a map and is only useful against bosses (and sometimes not even then).
  11. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Baron

    Hi Doc, I just thought I should tell you that it is quite the opposite
    On the FB group Dso world they have quite often proven that Q4 uses much less essence
    I can attest to that fact due to me playing with it
    Firstly its a different playstyle so bleed is in motion all the time and the monsters bleed 50% more than usual
    Secondly rage swing does 25% more damage against bleeders so once again you hit less, much less
    This is on all essences.
    And vs bosses with reds Q4 is once again much more economic (You will use 50% less)
    The big difference between Q4 and Q7 is this
    Players who kill bosses on inf2 ( end game players ) can do it in 17 seconds Q4 players can do it in 35 seconds ( end game players once again )

    I would know these things because I am befriended with some of the end game players.
    Like I said before I wish to break the Q7 witch seeker set speeds, for this I need more speed than they can throw out
    That is going to be quite a mountain to topple
    It is like this one friend of mine said
    Even if you can reach the same or more damage as Q7 set it is the damn speed from smash that is nearly invincible.
    Luckily for me I have 3 darkness pieces, so for this setup I can craft helm with 4/0 damage and get 15% from the set bonus.
    Now I know it is not much but at least I will not sacrifice damage for crit anywhere.
    Just like I pointed out to a guy my predicted damage for all t6 everything with max damage I will look at 26768 - 33384
    Note that not using the witch seeker set my min damage is average anything from 2000 to 5000 more than players with similar max damage.
    In spite of this I will have an estimated 25000 critical hitrate
    Smash will give me 285% while an opponent bleeds so it is 33384 (max) + 285% + 350% (critical damage) = 449849 on greens.
    Nice huh?
    This still is 50% slower than smash with Q7 buff.
    I guess my end game character will be ok
    It will be nice however to see how the much higher minimum damage affects all this
  12. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I didn't say that the Q7 set used less essence. I said the Q7 set "performs" better with higher essence.

    You hit on the principals at play, but I'll expound a little.

    There are two metrics of Damage Performance. "Damage Per Second" and "Damage Per Hit". For example, Build 1 may have higher DPH, but lower DPS when compared to Build 2. If you care more about speed, you want Build 2, but if you care more about resource consumption, you would want Build 1. The Q4 set will use less essence than the Q7 set, but the Q7 will put out more damage in a given length of time. Given that greens are cheap/easy to farm and blues are abundant (at least for the kind of players who would be having this debate), the higer DPS build (Q7) makes sense. With Purples it is a little more murky. Because of how essence interacts with the two different set bonuses you are likely looking at similar essence use, but Q7 will be significantly faster. It isn't until you get to Reds that the Q4 set has any advantage. The time component could be similar, but the Q4 set will use less essence because it's effectiveness comes from increasing the Damage Per Hit.

    So, if you are planning to do a lot of T6 boss runs with reds, then you have an argument for the bear set. I'm more of a solo player and much of my game play is Infernal II with greens and blues and occasionally purples. With how I play, Q7 is the better fit. A more team oriented player would probably benefit more from the Q4 set.
  13. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Baron

    And with R208 coming Q4 will be much more valid.
    But you are right Q7 is unbeatable for now
  14. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Well, I farmed the Draken to try for another Darkness torso. It wasn't a gold line, but it was in the upper end (940 out of a max of 992). It is good enough that I decided to use it. I'll have to spend a good chuck to augment it in the future, but there is no denying what it's done for my crit:
    -31-33 Damage
    -476 HP
    -1023 Armor

    +2903 Crit

    The crit is the star of tonight's show. I'm up to over 75% in Infernal III and I maintain 80% in Painful through Fatal without my Crit helmet (meaning I can craft a damage helmet for lower difficulties and PvP). I'll be rather close to 80% (or higher) once I augment my adornment and from there, it will be all about squeaking out more damage and crit damage where ever I can.

    The losses... well, You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs, but don't worry, I still plan to put Humpty back together again.
    The damage loss is because I used a spare 3/4 torso I had lying around as a place holder so I can use my good ones to craft a proper 4/4 down the road. The HP and Armor loss are because I'm using a T0 torso vs the old T3 legendary, so this will be addressed as I'm able to tier up this new torso.

    At long last, I have all the items in place for my build and the only thing left to do is improve their quality. Rings with 60% crit damage will be improved to Rings with 73%. My weapon that has a mid range damage line that will be improved to a gold line. The Boots will get 120% HPotI. The torso will get 39.5+% Damage for a 6+% improvement... and so on.
    DocWhisky, Morinphen and Zoltan like this.
  15. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Some progress on my little tank, before the changes make it complete noobie again)

    xxsinerx and VoulaAek1 like this.
  16. CreeperS4

    CreeperS4 Someday Author

    So, after long time doing casual gameplay, I'm finally happy with how my war looks like


    My crafts are not perfect, but I'm already tired of the crafting bench and I don't want to see it for some time :p

    But there are still some things I will be getting by regular gameplay:
    • Get better gems (Still 0 royal gems :()
    • Farm remaining glyphs
    • Maybe get uniques with better base values
    Looking forward to how all of this will change with the new wisdom system, it will sure help my attack speed and my crit :D
    Morinphen, bLaind and Zoltan like this.
  17. Conqueror21

    Conqueror21 Forum Apprentice

    Baragain may I ask you something?Have you ever tried replacing your Dragan boots with the Frigid spider's silk boots (from new moon)?Well,you would lose dragan's damage bonus but there would be benefits too.
    1: You would get more critical damage (+ 7,5%).
    2: You 'd have one of the best DK sets combination= (q7 set+calamity of the two queens).This set is a perfect match for q7 set:"Every critical hit (you have 80%critical hit rate)with Rage attack,Smash and Ground breaker gives you +1,2% damage(stacked x 25=+30%), +0,6 movement speed (stacked x 25=+15%).
    It might be a better combination ,but then again it might not.However it seems to me that if you reach the maximum number of stacks its a slightly better choice.
  18. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Baron

    Actually no, that is 30% max damage which just crunches the amount of variables while 3 dragan pieces gives 22% weapon damage which is very important
    Conqueror21 likes this.
  19. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I used those before I made the switch to the 2/2 Medusa set and then I switched to the 2/2 Herald set. Ultimately, the damage I'd lose from the 28% Increased Weapon Damage is too much compared to the minimal offensive gains I'd get from the White Spider's Boots. You can see what happened when I made the shift from 3/4 Twin Queen's set to 2/4 and 2/2 Medusa. There is really no benefit to using the Spider boots in my current build style.
    Second, Phyrix is right, it is only 30% max damage.
    On top of that, max damage is calculated in the same place as all +%ID. If you have more %ID than you have %IWD (Which I do, and most DKs do), you'd lose a significant amount of minimum damage and your max damage with the full stack wouldn't be anywhere close to what it would be with the 3/3 Bellicose set bonus. And if all that wasn't bad enough, you'd also further dilute the effectiveness of the 150% Q7 set bonus because that 150% is calculated in the same step as the 30% max damage.

    The other issue I have with it is that I hate temporary stacking buffs because you have to take the time to build them up. In the case of the queen's set, it is even worse because the buff is only 10 seconds long and it is very easy to lose it during normal farming.

    Long story short, as a finalized build, the New Moon set is only useful for it's 2/4 set bonus between a cape and weapon decoration. There aren't many offensive weapon decorations that are better than the White/Black Spider adornments (depending if you need resources or more damage), and there are already limited options for a cape, but the white one one is the only one with the amount of offensive potential that it has. There are some that are "better" as single items, but not when used as the 2/4 set. If someday we get an amazing decoration that forces me to change out my Black Spider adornment, then the boots would have a use due to their ability to get the 2/4 set bonus, and then I'd be forced to re-examine my choice of 2H so that I could use the Bellicose gloves and maintain my 3/3 bonous there... but until something like that happens, this discussion is all academic in nature.
  20. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    @_Baragain_ it looks like with the re-adjustment coming your decision to go with the Q7 weapon over the Q4 is proving to be really smart.

    Have you considered the lost amulet over the Medusa to gain that little bit of bonus since you're using the ring?

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