Why do Rangers have the best of everything?

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by extinckDK, Dec 19, 2013.

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  1. fourtwenty68

    fourtwenty68 Board Analyst

    i agree about the pots n buffs,keep it simple in pvp,the fame tree already has crazy advantages,and buffs are overkill.
     
  2. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    certain f2p characters, such as high HP dk's (like Baragain's dk), have no use for pots except in pvp.
     
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  3. Mario_Boss

    Mario_Boss Regular

    Well i agree i have over 800 potions and didn't use one in arena. Why? Cuz i dont like it. Everyone are using but not me. If i wanna spend them i'll go on destructor and spend them over 10 per fight... no potions no buff for arena in my opinion
     
  4. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    On the topic of the potions... I use potions strategically the same way I use my skills. In my opinion, they are just a part of the game and a resource like any other. However, I have a compromise (and it has been discussed in other threads). I feel that the universal potions should not be allowed in PvP as they are % based, just like the Blue/Purple/Red ess that has already been removed from PvP. If this were done, it would actually benefit players with lower HP because the LVL 40 potion would equate to a higher percentage of their total HP. This would also handicap all those players who spend tens of thousands at the jesters and have thousands of universal pots but few normal HP Pots due to those having to be farmed (or bought for an outrageous amount of andermant).

    So, in summery, % based items like Universal Health Potions and Blue/Purple/Red ess should be restricted to PvE, and flat amount items like normal HP pots and green ess should be usable in all aspects of this game.

    Now, on topic so that I don't incur the wrath of the mods. Rangers are unique when compared to every other class. Same with SWs, DKs, and SMs. Anyone who thinks that one class is more OP than the others either has no experience playing those characters, has only fought the super OP cash version of those classes, or just needs to improve their own character. Personally, I can fight and kill most players in duels unless they are the super toon uber cash versions but I don't judge the entire class based on those experiences. That being said, I usually have the most personal trouble fighting RAs because they are the masters of hit and run and never sit still long enough for me to land a good hit, but I wouldn't say that just because I have trouble fighting RAs that they are OP.
     
  5. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Not sure if archers are better in 1v1 vs tanks, and I can't judge that, but I'm sure they are stronger than mages. I'm pretty strong endgame mage and I have zero issues with other classes, only archers. And I don't play archer myself as I find this class boring in PVE as they have no armor break. I would personally give them an armor break but take double damage as a price :)

    However, I'm still experimenting with the build and strategy. my latest conclusions are that I only have issues with archers in dragan set, and I may need to wear one myself fighting them, as well as trade some dmg and resist for armor.

    Don't do that now as that setup would be useless for PVE, and it's lots of gold to play with it everyday. So for now I decided to stick to a high dmg PVE/5v5 setup.

    P.S. Some good archers that I know in person agree they ate stronger than mages.
    But they will never tell that here on the forum.
     
  6. DesertKoala

    DesertKoala Forum Pro

    Like weeds, the OP Class discussion is impossible to end. Here is what you need to do if you are truly convinced there is an imbalance. It will take a bit of your time so I doubt you would bother to let objective facts get in the way of personal bias.

    1. Login to your server
    2. Bring up the PVP leaderboard
    3. Type the names of the top 50 players and their Fame Points into your spreadsheet of choice
    4. Lookup those 50 players and put their Class in the third column
    5. Build a pie chart and look to see which Class is dominate

    End of discussion.
     
  7. Master0fpuppets

    Master0fpuppets Forum Baron

    On server that I play on is Ranger class, no joke. :D

    Edit: Don't get me wrong, I did try all classes and everyone has something bad or good about it eg:

    Ranger & Mage > PvP easy but solo PvE not so much, especialy with Ranger.
    Dwarf & DK > PvP so-so not to easy but not to hard thoug you need some skills with it but PvE Dwarf is a power-house, soloing any map is a peace of cake, even better then a DK.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2015
  8. TheHood

    TheHood Forum Apprentice

    That's right, the war is over!
     
  9. Heaven

    Heaven Junior Expert

    Way to bump such an old topic... but reading back on those comments, 1600 max damage as a mage in early 2014? Man I must have missed something lol.

    Looking at leaderboard classes is completely irrelevant to OPness... for a while, in Heredur the #1 player was Valordragon, a dragonknight whose stats were really bad compared to other characters. This just shows that being up there is a matter of having time to spend, also there have been many changes to each class over the years which makes leaderboard even more inaccurate.

    IMO, all the classes are balanced, they all have their cons and pros.
     
  10. ScientiaPotestasEst

    ScientiaPotestasEst Someday Author

    I find this topic quite interesting and I would like to give some of my inputs after discussing it with some of my ingame friends (heavy pvp & cash players, players who played the game for many years). Of course, take everything with a grain of salt as it is mostly opinions and all's welcome to dispute it.

    Let me first define the term of p2p and f2p based on my/our interpretation in this game (not applicable to other games) because you can earn ingame currency with prolonged grinding of andermant to purchase from ingame shops. It is important that you understand this before continuing. F2p players are players who spend no or very little money with reasonable amount of time spent on grinding (ie. casual players). P2p players are those who spent a vast amount of money (ideally mostly sacred or royal gems) and/or spent massive/excessive time grinding (ie. players who did not donate but dedicated vast majority of time to grinding over the past multiple years) or both. After all, time is money.


    I will now list the balance from the weakest class to the strongest class with the F2p/p2p terms defined above. I will exclude dwarves from the list because we all know they are only good for 5v5 flag running :D, with their defense similar to ranger, lowest burst dps and arguably the worst and unreliable stuns in the game. Two assumptions made here are that the each classes are played by a competent player of the same skill level and each class possesses equal level of gear and gems for their respective category as F2p and P2p. Although this is not the case in reality, it is needed here for discussion.


    1. F2p DK is the weakest, simply because as a melee class, they must first reach their opponent to attack. Due to the lack of defense (ie. good defense gems), they will be gunned down before they can reach their opponent. With the level 35 fame skill of stun break on all classes, it is a difficult task to do, especially if F2p DK is killed within 2-3 shots. Combined with their natural low burst damage, of both burst damage from skills and from character stats gained from experience leveling as a tank class, it is not surprising they are the weakest in F2P with low defense and offense capabilities.

    2.F2p Mage is the second weakest; because while they have minimal defenses and dies in 1-2 hits, in the hands of a player with reasonable competence, they can last much longer. F2p mage who specialize in pure damage can kill a lot of their opponents because most F2P players lack resistance and thus are weak to fireballs and burns. With good navigation of hit and run/dodge when firing fireballs, they can partially negate some of their massive disadvantage of being 1 (or 2) hit wonders. So in the end, while they do die a lot, they will at least get some kills and some points from damage dealt in battles.

    3.F2P Ranger is the strongest of all F2P classes. This is because they possess a balanced defensive (those that rival a F2P DK) AND possess the highest burst DPS of all classes with their 300% precision arrow with mark and proper talent selection and also high damage dealing deadly blow melee attacks AND also scatter shots for killing low health opponents on the run AND constant 30-40% movement slows. They possess the most evasion skills of low cooldown jump, 3-4x bladedances, adrenaline for its run speed and concentration refill and another 3-4x bladedances with a jump soon after. Against most F2P Dk and mages, they will kill them first in hit per hit trades if needed. Combined with reasonable skills in evasion, they are truly a beast, at least for F2Ps.

    4.P2P Ranger is the next on the list. Reason for this is that against P2P players, they invest in good defensive gems. Now their precision shots and deadly blow can not kill their opponents with ease. Their main weakness is the lack of armor break, which is very much needed against a P2P/ heavily gemmed player with a good shield. Against a P2P DK, they will have trouble penetrating their defenses to deal enough damage while at the same time evade all the P2P DK's not so weak attacks. Against a mage, they will have trouble with marking first then shotting precision shot, when the P2P mage's fireball are extremely deadly and can be fired with ease in comparision. Now with P2P players, most will have move speed bonuses from jester gems, which means all those fantastic evasion skills against F2P players are now much less effective, and their need to mark first puts them at a significant disadvantage against the much "mobile" hit and run mages and their aoe stuns. It is tough to land 2 consecutive shots against a high movement speed target that attacks back.

    5.P2P Mage comes very closely tied with P2P DK. In fact, if not for the need to order them, I would almost put them as equals. P2P Mage possesses high mobility with high damage, from ice bolts and fireballs respectively. They have many area denial skills such as singularity and meteor, and also armor break (which is crucial in heavy P2P battles). They also possess ice nova, which is in my opinion the single best counter move in the game, by removing stuns and freezing opponent while dealing damage. P2P DK often face trouble catching a good P2P Mage. P2P rangers are no match against a P2P mage because of the trouble of marking and hitting. With run speed gems, rangers will have great difficulty of landing two consecutive shots and ranger's stuns are lackluster in comparision to mage's stuns.

    6.Finally, we have P2P DK. They take forever to kill and usually require either armor break from DK's headnut or from Mage's singularity to deal enough damage. Even then, they have multiple heals and can survive exhaustion that other classes have trouble with. They have a panic button of 8 second immunity against everything to run and heal up. A P2P DK who plays smart knowing time is on their side is tough to kill in duels; and in other matches can put great pressures on their opponent's more fragile classes. Not surpringly, they also possesses the lowest cooldown timer on their armor break skill, which as mentioned numerous time earlier, is the key to defeating very heavily gemmed P2P players.


    Of course, everything above is based on opinions. What One can take away from reading is that choose your pvp class based on the amount of time and money you're willing to put into the game. For example, if you plan to play a few hours a week and not put in any money, don't pick DK; whereas if you play 10 hours a day and put in thousands of usd/euros, pick either DK or mage.

    So yes, as one can see above, the classes are balanced. Know your limits and pick the right class :p (for pvp).

    Thanks for reading, I look forward to the discussions/disputes that follows, if any.
     
    Darwarren, Morinphen, Heaven and 2 others like this.
  11. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    I like your way of thinking, the form and the content. I would, however, disagree in one thing - P2P mage is no issue for P2P archer. Good archer marks and hits again easily and there is no good way to move out of precise shot unless teleport. It will take archer few hits to kill mage, while your style mage with fireballs will need 10-20 of them to take archer down. Singularity is zero effectiveness against archer, it only takes time and allows for double shot. Frost nova is useless as well. The only way to fight archer on fire would be to hit and run. But archer deals more dmg with hit&run, and has much better defence.
    Additionally, pvp archers usually wear warlord set, what mages rarely do, which makes them almost immortal.

    The only true benefit I see for playing pvp against archer with mage, and against tank too, is ability to replace resistance items (stats and gems) by equel armor items. Other classession will need both against mage.

    And Armor break, it really makes archer class boring in PVE, I agree, but it has nothing to do with a fight against mage. Singu does not make difference against archer either. I would happily give archers an armor break but take their double dmg as a price.

    PS. I play end game mage and DK.
     
    ScientiaPotestasEst likes this.
  12. Morinphen

    Morinphen Forum Overlooker

    A well reasoned and well written post in a "class wars" thread? I must be dreaming ;). One thing, though: I would not strictly tie heavy grinding to P2P. Since they can buy, they rarely have to farm (I mean those heavy-payers). I'd say that F2Ps are more likely to grind intensively, while P2Ps are more inclined to reasonable farming at best.
     
    ScientiaPotestasEst likes this.
  13. ScientiaPotestasEst

    ScientiaPotestasEst Someday Author

    Thanks, I like your inputs too. It certainly takes a lot of fireballs to kill a well geared archer, but archer is at a significant disadvantage when all things are considered equal (especially in a duel where every shot hit matters). Mark + precision shot is equivalent to mage's 2 fireballs. I would classify 2 fireballs as more damage dealt (given resistance vs armor). Mages with high movement speed gems are very tough to hit and that is what makes that class extremely formidable (combined with ice bolts). I also agree singularity and frost nova are best used against DK, but they can be useful offensively vs archers as well. Area denial is a powerful tool and not to be underestimated. Also, I'm a fan of mage's stuns :) Mages in general have more opening moves against archers (which also forces archers to use their debuff jump/adrenaline) and can better utilize movement speed than archers in dodging. While it is tough to catch archers in singularity, it is entirely possible to use it as a part of a set of combos to force archer into a less favorable position or risk taking large amounts of damage within singularity (even if they got out of singularity, you still got at least 1 free fireball on them + 1 stunbreak or 1/3 of concentration from bladedance). Although, in a hit per hit trade between fireballs vs precision shot, mages will lose; the beauty is that mages do not need to so as they would land more number of hits than receive in return.

    Above does not apply to F2P battles, F2p Mages dies in 1 precision shot and are easy to hit without movement speed gems after being marked. (Not referring to you or any specific person, just in general)

    Thank you for your kind comments. I placed players who farm excessively as "P2P" because time is money. Time spent farming for ander is same as ander bought. Ander is ander, just a much slower way of obtaining :).
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015
  14. Morinphen

    Morinphen Forum Overlooker

    Hehe, then that's the only thing I'm ever paying to this game. Time :D. Oh, and attention... yeah, that matters too xD.
     
  15. Darwarren

    Darwarren Count Count

    All in all, it's quite an in-depth theoretical analysis, but there are a number of unproven assumptions and massive generalizations about each classification, and where are the Steam Mechanics in all this?
    The relative strengths of the different categories should be demonstrated in PvP Duels, basic one-on-one competition between 2 players. Yet there is massive divergence to the trends suggested. Even allowing for variances in style, skill, & total time in the game, the results are all over the place, and hardly significant. No clear hierarchy exists, except perhaps in the local circle of each player.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
  16. Morinphen

    Morinphen Forum Overlooker

    Well, he/she did say that he/she...
     
  17. ScientiaPotestasEst

    ScientiaPotestasEst Someday Author

    Everything has to be theoretical because one can not account for the variances in skill.

    Assuming equal player skills and gear/gems, it is nothing more than a matter of shots exchanged and probability of hitting your opponent due to run speed (and class specific skills). If player A can take 100 hits while player B can only take 1 hit, and player A and B both got the same chance of scoring hits, it is hardly unproven assumption given all things equal that player A will win.

    Can a cripple beat a healthy athlete in a 100 meter race? Sure, but is it likely? No.
     
    Morinphen likes this.
  18. Darwarren

    Darwarren Count Count

    Everything has to be theoretical? Rhetorical rubbish. Any valid theory in science deals with observable, measurable, repeatable events. Most people prefer truth to fallacy. If a statement cannot be proven, it falls either to religion and belief, or nonsense and fantasy.

    As to the issue of player strength, any statement not supported by facts is, at best, just hot air.
    How do so many weaker rangers beat so many stronger mages in pvp, regardless of cash?
    Why aren't the top 100 players in Duels all P2P DKs, with a few P2P Mages maybe at the bottom?
    There are strong SM that can ruin the day of many DKs, and mages. How does that square with your assumption that they are only good for flag running?
    Or how about the inherent assumption that time is money. Is there some magical point where a casual F2P player crosses the line into P2P because he has xp or gear? Or is it just another grand, circular argument, that proves itself? "He's good, then he must be P2P. And if he's P2P, he must be good." Or "he's F2P, he must play like a noob. And then "He's plays like a noob, he must be free to play."

    You don't have to use multi-variant statistical analysis to invalidate your theory. Experienced players at the top actually know these things first-hand.
    You can use your "theory" as a working model for your own benefit, but don't be surprised if it blows up in your face.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
  19. ScientiaPotestasEst

    ScientiaPotestasEst Someday Author

    You should reread my original post. You missed the two important assumptions I made when comparing classes.

    Leaderboards ranking is based on honor points and is inaccurate in determining the hierarchy.

    Facts that support my claims are based on character skills (as in damage %, likelihood to hit), gears stats, etc. If you prefer to call them rubbish and compare them to religion, that is fine. It is in your right to disagree. I also addressed the P2P and F2P issue in my original post, ideally full sacred gems+.

    Player skills in PvP plays a role in determining who wins, but as I said in my earlier reply, a cripple might win against a healthy athlete in a race, but the chance of it happening is unlikely. Your counter-argument is based entirely on better player skills = win; which while it is true, it is going against the two assumptions of equal player skills and gear level. Player skill is just one additional factor in determining the likelihood of winning and is difficult to quantify, hence the assumption of equal player skill was used.

    One last thing I want to add is that you missed the purpose of the original post. The purpose was to let others know what would be the best pvp class to play as depending on the amount of time and money one is willing to put into the game. I already stated in my original post that all classes are balanced, it is just some classes are better than others with varying money & time investment.

    Of course, if all this sounds like religion to you, it is fine and you can just ignore everything I wrote.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
  20. Darwarren

    Darwarren Count Count

    Sounds like religion? You flatter yourself. It sounds like nonsense to me.
    I have already read you stuff several times, enough to judge its worth. You have the right to stand up in the forums and make a fool of yourself (after all, some of us are Americans), but it still carries an opportunity cost to anyone who reads it.

    Factor analysis without substantive proof is still just speculation, or in simpler terms, just fiction. Unfortunately for your position, statistics do not support your assumptions or your conclusions. Have you heard the old adage, " GIGO, Garbage In, Garbage Out"? Lucky for me, playing the game is all the entertainment I need.

    Hope you should straighten up your dissertation skills, long before you put them on the line for something really important.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
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