Long-term motivation in DSO

These are some thoughts about what makes an MMORPG interesting from my personal p.o.v.
I put them here in a separate thread because they would have been off-topic in the official crafting 2.0 feedback thread in which the discussion arose.

Challenges and the fun of mastering them in a team:

"Farming" for me implies a rather easy, repetitive task that only yields some resources but is of no great fun.
What I want in the game are some challenges that are really hard to do, but give you a great feeling of achievement if you can master them.
Ok, Balor and Mortis (at least on fatal) are still quite challenging for most players, but the main reason why they are rarely done is that you can get basically the same drop rewards at other bosses more easily.
I think the game was better back in those days when you were glad to find a tank and good group for Mortis (or even Herold - at a time my chars were not "born" yet...), a time where you would agree on an appointment in the forum up to one week in advance and wait eagerly for the day to come... a time where it was really something special to have killed one of those bosses.
Nowadays, we basically only have events as special experiences in the game, and even those are quite boring for most players.
I would like it better if not everyone was able to do everything, even if it meant that I myself couldn't do everything.

Continuous improvement of your stats:

I know that continuous improvement of your stats is seen as a major if not the main objective and fun in most RPGs. However, that automatically means that always new challenges have to be introduced to keep the game interesting, and it also means the game becomes harder for those who cannot keep pace. It means that every year (or so), we have to re-start building our characters "from the scratch", like after the R155 level expansion. I have seen people complaining about this, and personally I would actually prefer if that "spiral" of improved stats and ever more difficult monsters would stop once you reached the end level.
I would prefer improvement by (human keyboard operator) skills gained only, rather than this ongoing stat inflation.

The nerf doesn't affect targeted crafting, at all. It only affects reverting and "unlimited" re-rolls. Crafting 2.0 isn't meant to give you an "immediate" benefit, but to make it possible to pursue a long-term goal (if you have any left, that is).

In the same way I could say: I am not going to spend a year farming for the glyphs necessary to upgrade my items to level 55, just for an additional 1-2% of damage.

If playing this game is "hard work" for you, then it is probably not the best way to spend your leisure time...

Competing with other players:

I don't have that ambition of competing with the top players. They are way ahead of me and will always be; there will always be players investing LOTS more money and/or time than i can afford. Those who have full lvl 55 gear now would also have had fully "perfect" items with crafting 2.0.2 in half the time than we "normal" players.

I want to compete in PvP with players that have about the same stats as I do. I would be more ambitious if there was a "white" arena where everyone has the same gear and stats (or initial points to distribute on offense and defense) and only skill decides.

PvP is fun even if you are done with the PvE content, as it always offers new challenges. But for me it is NOT a motivation for endless PvE farming, just to be able to compete with OTHER players than I do now.

 

While I do not agree with you on 2.0, I do like the fact that you present a different point view.

Maybe you can explain how nerfing 2.0 doesn't affect targeted crafting.

Considering that we now lose 2, will you be putting in four of your best or will you now do 2 and 2?

Before DSO, I played the big popular game for almost a decade. While even today that game leaves a bit to be desired, it is still around for a reason. DSO does a few things incredibly well, but the longevity in terms of attracting and keeping players doesn't come close.

 

I will shift from that thread to this one ... so my post won't be deleted again as off topic.

That is the devs' goal ... they don't want you to improve ... they want you to spend a lot of money.
Now ... about the drops and those better enchantments. Your and Aramndo's play style are completely wrong ... the real farmer and experienced player can notice that very fast during their playtime ... that is why I (as one of them) have lot of items with killer gold enchantments. And i will make good use of them whether it is the initial or this latest Crafting version. Of course I would like to give you directions ... but not here. Hit me on Wiki I will explain you where is your mistake.

Armando
No offense ... but I am tired of you poisoning all the forums with "your" p.o.v. which is not even gamer's p.o.v. but rather devs p.o.v.
It is obvious you are either trolling or you are simply ignorant. The most significant remark I can get from all your statements is that you are not a thinking like a player but rather like a DSO dev. They are "playing" this game just the same way you are. Coincidence maybe. That is why this game has lost its appeal long time ago.

Your methods of farming and playing this game are your own choice and I cannot interfere ... but they are certainly wrong.
Since you said you have a ranger at Grimmag you may contact me so I can give you some insights and teach you the game basics.
Mentioning how good Tayaz gear and The Untouchables set is ... made me laugh so hard that I have pissed my pants.
Those sets are as useful as rubber lips on a woodpecker.

Those "maybe 10" are the real ambassadors of this game! Not even 200 advertisements per day that BP can pay for, are efficient way to bring new players in this game ... AS the word of those 10. Or simply said ... they are bringing more players in the game not the ads and certainly not all those marketing money that BP have spent so far. One football club is getting exceptional income not because the president and the management ... but because of the players.
So it is the case in this game too. New players will keep coming ONLY if "those 10" (not just those 10 but metaphorically expressing representatives of the vets and hard core player's community) keep playing and contributing as they always did. New players are not coming to play because the devs and management but because they want to compete with "those 10".
As for your argument on how easy to obtain perfect gear or not ... with the latest modified Crap 2.0 ... well ... i will not write my thoughts as we all know 1 picture can say a thousand words : here is the picture

One word: baloney!
The weaker will get weaker ... and the stronger will get stronger.
First you have to determine what is a weak and what is a strong player.
- weak player is a player who is playing the game casually ... they neither invest money nor time and effort. They are doomed to failure from the start ... but they know that that is why they are playing the game 30-60 minutes per week.
- strong players can be divided into 2 groups

a) P2W players are always pumping big money and investing big in their characters. The investment itself is not enough so they must play and farm hard. In lack of time they are usually "hiring" other players to play instead of them (which breaks the T&C) in order to get strong.
b) P2P and hardcore P2P players are farming their way to glory. There is nothing more to add because it is self-explanatory .​

Well dude ... you should have stopped playing the game 2 years ago.
I ... in eg. have over 100M GoPs only in my bow.

I don't see why are you discouraging the players? I can see him trying hard while you are acting like BP employee and spreading demagogy and false claims.

Nope ... PVP is fun only when it is working.
I can't see that since R155.

At last but not least ...
Your p.o.v. is totally O.O.C. and B.S. ... because Y.G.E. is not on pair with F.T.D.
A.A.S.B. ... you should really try to I.Y.G.E. in order to get the real picture. A.F.A.I.K your L. is V.E. and taken O.O.C.
I might be wrong ... but you S.T.B. one of T.D.T.
Mr. A. I am really L.F. to see Y.O. ... and i would like to add O.A. ... please U.F.L. for all gamers should U.Y.T

B.R.
t.r.a.k.i.l.a.k.i.

P.S. - U.Y.I. 1&2

 

Well, what I meant is that it literally doesn't affect the CRAFTING, as long as you accept the crafting result.
Only the all new REVERT function has been nerfed.
The lower your satisfaction level is (and the better inputs you use), the higher is the probability that you won't have to revert the process.
And the "targeting" comes from the inheritance from the inputs, this is also not (primarily) affected.
Personally, I will probably try to use inputs with 1 "pursued" stat in the 3rd and 4th item slot, on any rarity level - unless I put more value on gem slots.
I know this is rather nit-picking, but you should take into account that I, personally, never expected any revert function at all.
All _I_ was ever asking for is the influence of the input items on the end result.

I am not going to reply in every detail, sorry. For one reason, I'm not really up for guessing what all your acronyms in the last paragraph might mean.
Maybe we can have a clarifying talk at some point, either on Grimmag or on Wikia (Armando76). My Grimmag chars are called Badija and Cottia.

I do admit that I am a rather casual player, if you want you can even call me a noob, I don't mind.
What I don't like is that you see my posts as "poisoning", because I think I do speak for quite some percentage of those several hundred thousands of players registered at DSO, while you seem to speak for the top... 500? 2000? 5000? on each server.

I may be wrong on that, but then I would like Haruki to tell me so, based on their usage stats.
I may be ignorant, and I know I have been at times, if not here, then elsewhere.
I am NOT trolling, at least not on purpose; I only have a clear opinion and I'm trying to make it heard against what I think to be a few hardcore players who are over-represented in the forums.
I think this much (i.e. voicing their (legal, even if not generally accepted) opinion) should be allowed to everyone in a liberal society.

I will say it again, I respect your experience and also your commitment for the community, but that should not make you believe that your way of playing is the only one with which one can have fun here.

I was just giving examples on different notions of a "minimum acceptable gear to play the game".
And, obviously, "playing the game" and "having fun" also leave quite a lot of room for interpretation.

This makes me feel YOU are trying to discourage ME. You won't drive me from the game, but possibly from the English forum... at least I'm not having fun in talking to you here, and if MY leisure time activities are not fun any more, I stop them.
Have a nice evening.

EDIT:

At last, I understood that one. No, you're wrong. I have no connection to BP at all.

 

The long-term motivation is playing to improve, day after day rather month after month. It's not a question of time (it can't be, having to farm indefinitely while you're waiting to have some luck) but it's question to know that this is possible within a reasonable amount of time, that is not the bunch of years that they intend to be. I really need to receive some improvement back, otherwise I lose the meaning of things. And, with it, the interest in the game.

Ok it's not a problem. Personally, the moment to stop is arrived. I will wait the introduction of lev 55, or a smarter crafting, or whatever could give me some stimulation, to come back and play again. They do not care about what I do. I do not care about what they do. Both of us have different things to care of. So no matter.

The fact that here we're facing each other is useful and constructive. But, having so different targets about what we need to keep up a such repetitive playing, the discussion is likely to expire in the personal controversy, with this sickly line-by-line reply. I agree that in this way just ends the fun, and with it the utility to have a comparison.

Every opinion is lawful and highly welcome, whatever it'd be, but, to continue to be useful and constructive, it should add something to what we see every day in the game. Otherwise it is just a plebiscite in favor of the developers. And it is never a great incentive let them to know that we are fine whether things change (for the better if possible) as well as they just stay in the same way forever.

Allow me to say that I think it is more productive try to bring a different point of view than the one according to which "I will play whatever happens or does not happen". It may not be the one of the devs, but certainly looks like that, because it is what makes them more comfortable: work to innovate when the Earth lines up with the center of the Milky Way, and vegetating or simply doing brainless things the rest of the time.

Opinions of 5% of veterans are often highly demanding but at least they give the proof that things could always be done in a "good way" that would appeal to everyone (including the average, casual, and so-called noob players) instead just to the majority (average, casual, newbies AND all the others that are willing to take whatever devs give, being even happy for that).

 

I would say that the general objective in MMOs, after completing the story line (PvE), would be to get better gear for PvP... but we have a sick baby here so... (?)

 

Sorry for replying line-by-line again, it's my discussion style to directly refer to others' arguments...

This is actually the main question of this thread: what happens if you "infinitely" improve? Doesn't it mean that either the game gets boring at some point because there is no challenge any more, or else new challenges need to be introduced that again devaluate your previous work and improvement?
E.g.

I can understand that "the way is the goal", but improvement just for the improvement, just to see your stats continually growing, is that a long-term motivation for you?
Also, it is kind of logical that it gets harder and harder to improve any further the closer you are to the maximum, as long as there is a maximum. Which means that if improvement is your only goal, your marginal utility of playing this game will always be diminishing.
So, this is why I'm asking if we should not rather be looking for a different motivation.
Just as an example, one might be to stop at times and admire the beautiful graphics, the attention to detail etc... something DSO is really good at, from my p.o.v.

Maybe, if there were any creative suggestions from the community, other and completely new motivational mechanisms could be introduced as well.

BTW, some people I know are really working hard on the achievements, killing minibosses in Lor'Tac etc. For me, just some more or less stupid titles are not enough reason to put in any effort there. If we could get at least something like draken, costumes, mounts, pets (e.g. the parrots) or maybe even some uniques (such als Kaylin's cloak) for the achievements, that might be a different matter.

Well, I already said, as for me, e.g. a "white" arena (as well as solving some of the most annoying PvP problems and maybe introducing some new modes) could increase the fun and motivation again.

BTW, I have been "fighting" (I think in a rather constructive way) for about 1.5 years now for the introduction of a crafting system that gives us some influence by picking the right inputs. We finally get it now, you can't blame me that I'm happy for that. Indeed this does increase MY long-term playing motivation a lot. I'm just sad that it fails to do so for many others.
Trakilaki already delivered proof that it is still quite possible to receive astounding results very quickly.

You will want to kill me for that right now, but actually quite a few people protested (or at least dropped their jaws in disbelief, as well-known video tester @Spieletrend) when crafting 2.0.2 was presented, and that is (at least officially) why it was nerfed.
So, again, we (me and other protesters) got what we ASKED for!

I do, admittedly, often take a developer's point of view , because my professional background is to moderate between user requests and developer realities. So I am often considering what could be implemented easily or realistically. But that doesn't mean I'm happy with EVERYTHING we get here. Instead, I am usually trying to put my finger on details that could be improved - such as the D/C problem with crafting 2.0, or how the ALT key would only be really useful if we could assign one of the two command mode (CTRL) functions to it.

 

No problem with me. I also do it sometimes a little (like now). But sometimes instead is better to overfly, because it just becomes a way to fall into bickering.

Uhm. That post was not so clear to me. I presume that even the last sample that he submitted yesterday was made using the tons of items and gold that some user (not me) received as a gift on TS. If you start from nothing there is no chance to get a such "astounding" result in a hour during normal playing, not even if the god of luck kisses you on the *** lol. Just think what could mean to have 1 chance on about 1k of attempts, in terms of time, items and gold.

I think you killed by yourself This just demonstrates how different the expectations could be, not that your p.o.v. is "better" than mine just because it is pushed from the masses: usually - but it is not your personal case - the masses just push/ignore what they do not know/understand. They take it “as-is” and use it in the way they can. So I really do not think it'd be a good argument to raising now in favor of those who define themselves "happy"

Sure. Because your expectations are to get something better, ours are (were) to get the best or a slightly below. So having now a mechanism on which you can exert a faint influence is a success for you, and a huge disappointment for us.

Is the progression of the stats a long-term goal? Lol, what a question. It’s like when you play to a shoot 'em up game: do you care if you are able to progress a step further than before, or do you want to beat the highscore??
If you do not care about numbers, you might be happy for the beautiful graphic or because you survived a bit longer than ever before. If you like to see the numbers get bigger and bigger, probably you have (again) a well different expectation.

Ooooooh finally, this IS the point

What happens if you infinitely improve? Ahah. What happens if you do not??

Ok, taking note of the fact that won't exist the concrete chance to get – even in a considerable amount of time - the “god-like gear”, I need another way to satisfy that Request Of Enhancement who is much more desired than what you believe to be, just because you think to see a few people complaining now.

If the players – even the most easy-to-be-satisfied – wouldn’t like to see a “continuous” improvement, be sure that the devs would not care to introduce new maps and new levels. Some year ago the lev cap was 40, then 45, now it is 50, and hopefully it won’t be the last. Each level up means you meet stronger mobs to beat, and so you need a stronger gear (= higher stats) to use. Is it not a continuous improvement in your opinion? (even if, right now, it has been implemented and managed in the "longevity-killer mode").

So the discussion is open to any proposal that could extend the playability of Drakensang and give some further motivation to all the people that do not feel to have it anymore. And it sounds cool for itself. But it is too bad that, despite having ideas, I am convinced that it is useless to expose them, because devs will still follow what takes them the lowest effort and time, and maybe throws more cash into BP wallet. So, being always so reluctant in doing something for nothing, I prefer to see if someone wanna start, and eventually I stepping stone

 

I totally agree that this is the current "main" idea also in DSO, as in many RPGs.
There are 2 problems with it:
a) It takes quite a lot of effort to deliver new maps, mobs, quests, gear, events, archetypes etc, compared to the time players get entertained by it. After some 1.5 to 2 years until Lor'Tac finally came out, most players had gone to level 50 within 3-10 playing days.
b) While many people embrace the additional room for improvement (I do), others get frustrated by being set back and having to start all over collecting new gear again, as illustrated by the above example of Dragenstein.

This is also the main reason why I "voted" for a nerf of the revert function: I was afraid that BP would not be able to keep pace in delivering new challenges, for the speed of improvement of character stats. So people would get bored soon and the game would die!
See @_Baragain_'s post here... of course it is BP's job to keep the game interesting by providing new content, but we all know how fast/slow they are at that...

******
Now for some alternative suggestions for entertaining game mechanisms:

- What about if there was a way to provide user-created maps, from the community? This could accelerate the provision of new, entertaining content and stories. If you look at the latest community competitions, the creativity is certainly there. We would "only" need some map editor...
This could also be very nice for new PvP modes/maps. Of course, this would also imply a change of the business model...

- What about trying not to get better and better stats, but instead improving your player skills in order to face certain existing challenges with as little/bad gear as possible? E.g. highscore/"lowscore" lists for who has managed to kill Mortis (on any specific difficulty level) with the lowest CV value (which would need to be "fixed" once you started a run, of course...)?

- Something like the proposed alchemy system might also be nice... A system where you can find and develop more or less complex recipes by trial and error, as in the well known alchemy/evolution mobile games.

 

@Armando

Crafting 2.0 from the beginning was meant to allow players to target their gears. I was expecting to be able to craft gears with 4 lines of whatever i wanted, say lines of damage. I wasnt expecting the values to be inherited, such that god like items would be created. So perhaps even in its current form, 2.0 is is still better than what i was expecting. BP felt such gears are too strong and instead of starting over or creating two simulatenous versions of crafting 2.0, they hacked what they had nerfing it, in such a way that it doesn't fit the brief. After all this waiting, I was expecting an immediate improvement, given that I have farmed ingredients already, but nope.

I find it ironic that this nerf is meant to encourage people to play the game longer when my motivation for the game has completely gone. I don't even have the will to farm realm frags anymore, and it reminds me again of how you said the game is not meant to be a grind. The events are a grind, taking a ridiculous amount of time to complete some of them, and it isnt limited to just event time. You have to grind before hand to be ready for them. Levelling up to 50 is also a grind. I will now play the game with no ambition, i wont even farm for realm frags anymore, i will be skipping new moon and full moon events. I will play for the social aspect only if ever my friends want to play.

2.0 is a fail for me. I will look forward to dragan where i will help people get their dragan sets, or maybe i shouldnt so they can be waiting 6 months for the next time it comes around to increase their long term play. I look forward to the day when 1 fatal teleport allows for 2 boss kills.

The following things should be done to improve the game from my perspective:

• Fix the monster health in groups such so a group of 5 people means that monsters health are 400% and not 500%.
• Give an added incentive for larger groups such as a loot bonus.
• Increase group parties to a maximum of 10 people.
• Decrease fatal level requirements allowing level 45 players to enter; there is a 400% exp bonus after all.
• Allow for a way to be power levelled. Removing the 5 level exp block so that a lvl 50 player can party with a lvl 1 player could work, but then that would mess up twinking; a big money maker for DSO. On a side note, twinks annoy me. Did you get marshall from killing level 20 noobs? Can you be proud of that achievement if you did?
• Increase realm frag drop rates.
• Decrease the time it takes to complete certain events.
• Guild improvements such as the last logged in date; my guild is dead. Would be better if there was a friends chat; would almost be like having a massive guild.

Thanks for the chat. I doubt i will reply further.

 

@taketh , I agree with you on most of your demands.

I think you are directly asking me here, so I will reply. I am playing official arena matches only, no open arena, no open PvP.
I wouldn't be marshal if it wasn't for the mentor bonus, and I am not particularly proud of that as it is nothing special.
The only thing I can prove with it (and my "victory crown" and bloodhound mount) is that i did a certain amount of PvP.

For my two twinks (a lvl 25 ardent knight of the order and a lvl 17 seasoned centurion), both are no- or low-pay, low-farm, PvP-only chars.
They have gear of +-5 their own level, and mostly simple to normal gems; but they have wisdom lvl 50/48.
While I have no chance against heavy payers or farmers, it's possible to have fun like this in lowlevel PvP. And "fun" means having a tight, intense match against a worthy opponent, not slaughtering poor noobs.
If I meet a "freshmeat" player in duel, I will usually let them win 1 round for a kill and some points.
I will never understand what fun it is to slaughter 95 percent of your opponents without any challenge, be it at lvl 20 (with lvl 45 gear) or at lvl 50...

I wouldn't mind if people could choose to level up even more quickly, or were even forced to do it, by gaining way more EXP from PvP.
The one thing I would wish for in twinking and low-level PvP is that upgrading your gear should be limited to 5 levels above your exp level.

 

The single biggest problem with DSO is that the entire thought process completely breaks down after design elements.

They spent months and months creating Lor'Tac and for what? Most players spent a week at most blowing through it and then it was back to the parallel worlds.

Why? Because no one working at BP seems to be able to think beyond creating beautiful maps.

Some of the new monsters and their skills were slightly interesting, but because there is no purpose whatsoever to run these maps beyond leveling, no one does.

The ability to level so fast does nothing to add to the game. The fact that they purposely make the gear drops pitiful on regular maps further demonstrates their complete lack of understanding on what makes players happy and interested.

Day 1 any player can level up to the mid 20's before they even put some thought into the game. DSO in their infinite wisdom decided to handicap players by making it darn near impossible to gather wisdom points in relation to leveling up.

Since there are limited quests, people get sucked into leveling up and moving on. Add to that fact that DSO encouraged twinking, newer players are also forced out of trying pvp.

It isn't until you hit the mid 30's that a player has to even slow down. Of course at this point they are lucky if they have 2 wisdom points, so they realize that by pure lack of thinking on dev's part, their character is getting weaker as they level.

Then the pure grind hits.

Players have no other choice than to grind the same old maps over and over and over until they finally get a new quest.

Their entire hope is to get to lvl 50 where they can finally open up a map with decent drops.

Then the worst eye opening fact hits them. Their characters are so weak that they can't run these good maps. So they are forced once again back to the absolute waste of regular maps.

99 percent of this could have been avoided if the dev's had put some actual thought into this game instead of simply stealing the bad ideas from more popular games.

Add more quests for each level. Add quests that provide gear, gems, glyphs as you progress in the game. It isn't a matter of constantly adding more and more maps, but keeping the existing maps interesting.

Even with their so called "improved" parallel worlds, we still have basically 1 map to run.

It used to be HOD, why? because it guaranteed good drops and gops.

Now we have Stone's Keep. Why? because it is fast and easy to get gear/gops.

We have 5 other maps that for the most part are completely ignored once you finish the quests. There is not a single reason a player has to run them. They are long and boring.

Then you come to events and the brain trust that is DSO strikes again. They make the drop rate as lousy as possible, then after they finally realize that most people avoid the stupid event, they decide to regurgitate it and call it hard. But alas, because there is no thought at all, they make it darn near impossible to get the passes to play the hard maps.

If all of these things were not bad enough on their own, then comes the ultimate slap in the face.

First, they ask for our opinions, which for the most part get ignored.

Second, if by some mistake they actually create something useful, they tend to take at least part of it away or change it until it is no longer wanted.

Third, because they have no concept of how to "create" a game, they introduce 100% completely worthless content or elements that benefit no one.

DSO is for the most part monkey see, monkey do. They troll the truly popular games and badly copy what seems like a good thing without understanding the how and why of what makes those things work.

Outside of the graphics, there is not a single thing about DSO that stands out as superior. Not because it couldn't be, but because they choose to make it that way.

Allowing players to progress does not have to be an ending to a game. Just look at the popular games that DSO currently rips off that are still going strong. They keep the interest in the game beyond simply leveling up.


Edit to add:

Here are some easy solutions.

1. Wisdom points gained 1 to 1 with levels (side benefit of limiting twinks).

2. Add more content to each level of progress. Increasing the number of quests with smaller exp points would keep players on a map instead of rushing through it. Currently, we have no reason other than to go from point A to point B and move on.

3. Get rid of every white gear drop. They serve no purpose whatsoever. Players can use greens, blues, exo, leg or uniques for storing things in the gem slots.

4. Increase the drop rate and quality of drop per level. This would encourage players by allowing them to improve their character while leveling up. Most of the "dropped" uniques are never ever seen and therefor entirely useless to the game.

5. Encourage group / guild activity instead of punishing us by increasing monster strength/hp. Create interesting challenges for groups only on a per level or per map basis.

6. Limit gear to 5 levels above the character level (also slows down twinking).

7. Create some level / rank specific pvp balancing, then offer pvp only rewards that would encourage players to play. There is no way to balance while allowing the twinks.

8. Actually listen to the players who give feedback concerning events. Take the best ideas and find a way to implement them on a timely basis. By the way, years is not a timely basis.

9. If DSO is going to create a "hard version" of events, allow the players to play that instead of making them rely on the beyond stupid random drop.

10. Rework the parallel worlds so that each map is equal and fun. If DSO cannot figure out how to do this, then make the longer boring maps have better rewards to encourage players to run these maps.

11. Most importantly, reward = effort. We all want a challenge, but that completely defeats the purpose when our time and effort are not rewarded. All end bosses on every map and level should drop something that makes us want to do it. Crappy greens and blues are not worth it.

12. Every event boss should be like Dragan. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out why most players like that event. Every kill = a nice drop. Maybe not the one you want, but nice nonetheless. No boss should ever have a white drop included.

13. For the love of all things holy, stop treating NPC's like a slot machine. We already have the jesters if we wish to gamble. I realize that this also requires some thought and effort, but just regurgitating another slot machine under a new name is not wanted or needed and doesn't make the dev's look very smart.

None of these things are complicated, they simply require some thought and effort.

The first couple dozen maps are pointless and sadly it doesn't get much better until you hit the parallel worlds.

Slow down the exp and add more interesting quests and challenges. Add gear drops that steadily increase the character strength in a minor way. This way everyone feels like they are accomplishing something. Even small incremental improvements go a long way.

Players want to improve. It doesn't have to be major, just improve steadily on a timely basis.

Give us a reason to run the regular maps slowly while having fun and somewhat challenging at the same time. No, they should not be as good as the parallel worlds, but they shouldn't be complete crap either.

Add interesting side challenges that offer small gems or gear or gops to further enhance the playing experience.

It should not be a mad dash to level 50 simply because every regular map sucks.

If the current dev's cannot understand why it is important for players to be engaged in the game instead of just rushing to the top, then fire them and hire some people who have played a game or two in their life, they'll understand.

 

I wish I could like this post 100x. The problem with your post is that the business side sits there and reads that and thinks it won't generate any money. Making the game fun and rewarding will bring in money, they just don't believe that.

 

Hahaha, the only motivation that keeps me logging in is to collect my daily chest and keep my 600+ day login streak going. Then I might stick around to farm something for a while if someone drops me an invite before I log off, otherwise I'm just not there.

 

Perfect. Any of them would boost a bit the game.

Totally agree with the fact that all the maps, not just Lor'Tac, get useless after having completed the quests. That the drop is so bad that they are not worth to be played anymore. And, beside all that, that is too fast to reach the lev cap.

So from the new expansion I just suggest:

better drop in maps + longer achievement of xp + reusability of all the maps

About the reusability, just give us a hard/fatal mode for ALL the maps, where mobs scale consequently. In this way the XP could be obtained playing in any map, not just in the newly created or in parallel worlds. And add random quests that pop up on a daily basis in random maps, also in order to help players to gain extra XP through simple quests that do not require any involvement in the narrative context of the next expansion.

Best would be to see implemented a system like Paragon Levels of a famous competitor, that is simple to develop (it would just require some mechanism to keep it balanced for PVP). In this way the game is forced to give always better items in term of stats and quality, not just for quantity as always was intended from developers, in order to make possible to face always stronger mobs, giving some satisfaction to whom like me wants to see the stats get higher and higher

The longer achievement of xp would need a separate discussion, in order to find a way for making it equitable and sustainable over months instead of a few days. But I do not have any time and volition to start it now.

Nice proposal, in addition to the others.

 

This is another area where the brain trust at DSO missed the point of the games that they were copying.

Most of those other games are subscription based. This means that they need to keep players engaged in the process. If the players were not able to advance in some timely manner or got bored with their character progress, they stop playing. Subscription games cannot sit back and simply hope that players like their game.

Now if someone at DSO were to look back and see the retention rate for players they would see the disconnect between this game and some others.

Some of the other games thought long term and therefor have been incredibly successful. Yes there is always room for improvement, but it is easy to see the thought process behind their decisions.

At DSO that seems to be very different. This is why nerfing happens, this is why features get constantly postponed, this is why so many players have finally given up and moved on.

 

No no no no no no no no no if you farm and cant get your items 5+ levels up then that just sucks completely, just because a lot of people are lazy and cant be bothered to farm or just spend money instead because they cant be bothered to farm doesn't mean us farmers have to suffer >.>

 

The point is that lowlevel PvP glyphs farming means EP blocking.
And this either means "annoying" higher level players to drag you along, or "spoiling" weak newcomers because you do all the work for them, even if they are 6+ levels ahead, or, worst, forbidden pushing with a second account of your own.

The idea of farming with EP-block is absurd.
If you get drops and glyphs and better equipment, you should also get experience points.
I guess most twink-haters will agree, and even I as a twink player do.

 

Think about this from a new player’s point of view. You’ve done some mmo games so you have the basic idea down. You’ve heard about DSO, so you give it a try.

First map, you land in the “instruction” zone. 100% worthless, but it is visually appealing so you continue on. First thing you notice is that you level up really fast and move to new maps quickly.

After a few minutes you finally hit Grimmagstone and start taking on quests.

Once again you level up quickly and start seeing the occasional green and blue gear drops. Since you are not completely aware of the stupid CV system, you may or may not fall into that particular trap.

You do a few quests and realize that this map while visually appealing also, pretty much is boring, so you jump into the first dungeon.

No real challenge, barely any gear drops, just more random boredom.

You ask yourself why anyone bothers to play this game.

However, you choose to continue onward.

Finally you hit Kings Hill.

On top of all the new quests, you see this nice thing that all good rpgmmo games have pvp. So you decide to jump on it.

Before you realize what happened, you’re dead.

You go back to Kings Hill and ask, what the ?

Laughter erupts and someone may be nice enough to explain that you need good gear and gems before trying to pvp.

So off you run off to do the next 7 maps to find some challenge and maybe some good gear.

It doesn’t take long to realize that if you want something other than green and blue gear, you’ll need to craft.

We all know how well that works, so the new player learns yet another valuable lesson and goes back to farming these worthless maps, while leveling up quickly.

Finally this new player hits level 18 or so and can whip the mighty Heredur using nothing but green ess and once again jumps into the arena.

Bam! One hit and they’re dead again.

So they jump back into Kings Hill and asks, what am I doing wrong?

Laughter erupts until someone is nice enough to explain, you need good gear and gems to pvp.

This player says, “well I have mostly blue with some exo, isn’t that good enough?”

More laughter erupts.

Nah, what you need is event gear and legendary items. Maybe some of the extra nice items that you can only get with draken.

After hearing about the need for realm frags, this new player realizes it will take days and days of heavy farming just to get enough to do 1 event.

Hopefully that nice experienced player will share the fact that it can take upwards of a year to get a nice set from most events.

Isn’t that fun for the new player?

Let’s say that this isn’t enough to discourage them from playing DSO altogether and they continue on.

After another day of playing, they finally hit level 28 and start on the maps that offer some possibility of dying on.

They are still using most blue and exo gear, and finally see their first unique. That big yellow marker is like a beacon calling the inexperienced.

They open up that nice item to find it is lower in stats than the exo they are already using.

They begin searching the internet to find what you need to do to get strong and stumble across the wiki page.

They see the 18 possible unique items that they could have found and wonder, do these things ever drop? So they ask.

Once again laughter erupts.

They now ask themselves what is the point of offering unique items if they never drop?

However, they carry on.

They get to the mid-level 30’s and find that they have no quests to continue to level up.

At this point, they usually find the forum and all the secrets to DSO appear in front of them.

Most unique items even if found are a pure joke. The drop rate on regular maps will get you nowhere.

Even when you do finally manage to get to the “good” maps in the parallel worlds, you’ll be too weak to do them.

If you want to pvp, you must first get 1 character to level 50 to open the parallel worlds, and then create another so that you can twink.

Maybe in a year or two, you’ll be able to finally get a low level character that can fight in pvp.

Isn’t that fun for the new player?

You may notice that I did not mention money or paying. Whipping out the credit card does not improve drop rates. It does not get you better gear drops.

Those things have to be farmed for, and as we all know, the only good gear is in the parallel worlds and a couple of events. Even then, you are still relying on the random number generating god to be kind to you.

Isn't that fun for the new player?

Now if they stick around long enough to finally be able to do the somewhat harder maps level 36 and higher (without dying every few minutes) all while still getting the same crappy gear that doesn't help them, they'll probably get rewarded by the most all time special feature called the nerf.

All those days of farming, any money spent, the entire plan they crafted, basically tossed out the window, and why? Because some group of players somewhere in the game got all butt hurt because they lost in pvp.

Isn't that fun for the new player?

Finally they come here to the forum and ask, "Why does anyone bother to play this game?"

 

Nice description of some game realities.... though some are not 100% accurate:

I helped a friend today who started creating a testserver character.
He was a DK, about 30 minutes old, Level 11 (!). He was using a 2-hand hammer to fight Heredur solo, and didn't do so bad... it was quite possible to win. And he immediately got some Duria set drops. While these are not very impressive, they are quite ok to advance further in PvE.

Back when I started my very first char (a mage), I got beaten up badly once I entered the catacombs at lvl 14. I was happy if I had enough gold to pay repair costs and buy green essence! I think nowadays it's possible to go to Level 45 without dying once ;-).

If you really want to pvp, it's enough to create a new character and start doing nothing but PvP from lvl 4 the latest.
If you level up by PvP only, you can buy new extraordinary gear for your fame points every 3 levels or so.
Of course you will lose against payers and EP block farmers, but there will always be enough poor newbies against whom you can win and have some fun. I know it for sure because I did it twice... ^^. It's possible to create a PvP twink without farming at all.
My lvl 25 ardent knight of the order (a dwarf) is still not using ANY uniques, no event items, not even the Vargulf shield, let alone Dragan set or anything. And he is not really farming the PW because he usually doesn't have an EP blocker.