Feedback Crafting 2.0 – Official Statement & Feedback needed

Discussion in 'Discussions on Current Topics' started by Allogeneous, Mar 22, 2016.

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  1. Armando

    Armando Forum Connoisseur

    I replied to you once more to illustrate our different viewpoints.
    As it would have been offtopic here, I created a new thread.
    Feel welcome to reply there, but you don't have to - I have accepted the fact that we have different expectations and viewpoints...
  2. Javah

    Javah Forum Veteran

    That's another great truth. Probably I like what I do only when I am able to do it in a pretty efficent way (a rule for life). That means work hard to get some improvement, not work hard just to work hard. To better express the concept, it's like if in your job at the end of month your boss do not pay you the salary but just congratulates having you done the things good.

    I feel frustrated when I play countless months without seeing any chance to improve further (except for the few points that I could still add to my gear farming dozens of million of glyphs). Lot of people here are happy when they are able to win a hard battle. Lot of others are happy when they become strong enough to make that battle easier to be won. Two rather different expectations, but both totally respectable. Unfortunately Drakesang is become the heaven for the first ones... while others just was waiting for crafting 2.0.

    EDIT: sorry I've just seen your new thread after I posted this one... but I hope we're still borderline because, broadly agreeing that the new crafting is widely distant from what we all expected, we are now debating whether it could be useful and appreciated by someone :)
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  3. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    I have made these 2 items yesterday in very short time ... it took me one hour maybe.
    So what you say Armando?
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    What do you think ... how much time will I need to get them together in one item? My goal is that 78.3% get transferred in the first item instead of the crit. damage.
    Another 1 hour or maybe longer?
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
    mokranje likes this.
  4. Armando

    Armando Forum Connoisseur

    We both know this is a rhetorical question. I will give you a short reply anyway:
    You would want 3 out of 3 and one out of two input lines in your output item - assuming that you don't mind whether it's 113 or 112 damage.
    Your odds would be (roughly) 3/16 * 2/15 * 1/14 * 2/13 * (4 choose 1) = 1: 910.

    Up to you to know how long you will need for an expected value of 910 attempts (and the 1820 legendary 3rd and 4th slot inputs).
    Good luck and have fun!

    Edit: Just as another example: Should you be willing to accept the 94 damage line as well, instead of 113/112, OR put ONE legendary with ONE damage line above let's say 102 in the 3rd or 4th slot, your odds would increase by 1.5:
    3/16 * 2/15 * 1/14 * 3/13 * (4 choose 1) = 1 : 607.
    If instead you were able to add ONE additional acceptable %weapon damage line in the 3rd or 4th slot, your odds would increase to
    4/16 * 3/15 * 2/14 * 2/13 * (4 choose 1), that is, 4-fold, to 1 : 228!
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
    -Skygazer- likes this.
  5. Dark~Knight

    Dark~Knight Forum Apprentice

    • 1:Do you appreciate the new possibility to combine four orange (legendary) items into a new one?
    • Yes, but should have a point like 5% increase stats or guarentee 4 gem slots for taking 4 legendaries that are good and combining them
    • Do you like the idea that the gem slot amount on the created item depends on the gem slots of the ingredient items or would you rather like a random gem slot amount on the created item?
    • minimal 1 slot green, blue
    • minimal 2 slots purple, legendary then random after minimal
    • Are you very much happy/unhappy with the fact of being able to just use items of the same item type?
    • dont care
    • Do you think the Revert functionality should cost something or should it be for free?
    • free and all 4 items returned but have to pay the combine gold
    • Having the upcoming changes in mind what do you think it would be a fair Gold/Andermant price for combining four extraordinary level 50 items into a legendary level 50 item? 50 gold
  6. cogix

    cogix Regular

    I combined 4 green seals with "life" stats (2 with HP and 2 with HP %) ... result: HP + Critical hit.
    Why Critical hit?
    Same thing with shield: 4 green shields with block rate % and result was: 1 block rate % and 1 armor value.
    I thought that it would take the stats of the objects, not just add random stat :((((((
  7. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    Read the notes again. 4 greens of a type gives 1 inherited line and 1 random line.
    Armando likes this.
  8. cogix

    cogix Regular

    my bad. I thought it would inherite 2 from green
  9. Reinier

    Reinier Someday Author

    Just my 2 cent. I tried only wirh greens, but there is no indicator on any source item to really be sure that the line was taken from that piece of gear.
  10. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    Try writing down your inputs and then see what the output is and see if the inherited line matches one of the originals. The output item doesn't indicate which input item the lines came from, but it does track from what i see. But i was trying to combine blues, not greens.

    Also, the 4 items do need to be the same type.

    General feedback: destroying two items is incredibly disappointing. This game is on the verge of being a waste of my time. Given the amount of runs and gold needed to statistically achieve a decent 4/4 item (and i was only crafting with blues and extraordinaries), this crafting system seems to just make this game a pointless grind.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
    EhtovK likes this.
  11. Dewesh

    Dewesh Someday Author

    i hardly craft items now. crafting is boring, it was fun before when it was free. i love to play jester rather then craft items with gold. and why the hell unique boss loots like rings, unique untouchable cant be combined normally ? why the hell is combining untouchable, rings in PW so expensive xD 35000 metari frags. noone combine it with that cost, rather use portal with that frags. bigpoint dont want us to combine that items, if they do they should make less expensive. BTW the crafting 2.0 sucks, crafting sucks it its not free or less expensive
  12. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Wow... Read the notes before your complain that crafting doesn't work! I'll answer some of these in greater depth when I get to a computer, but in short, there is nothing unexpected about the crafting system they released today. We are getting exactly what we were told when they updated the notes for Crafting 2.0.3.
    Armando likes this.
  13. Reinier

    Reinier Someday Author

    Sorry if I sounded too rash to both of you. I have read the forum extensively in the last few days, and I think I am aware of the current crafting mechanism, but I did not see any interface description/image of Crafting 2.0.3 so the interface appeared very simple to me.
    I have a picture on my pc but for now I will just describe you what I did.
    I have a young toon in Kingshill doing the crypt quests and I tried a simple experiment with 4 rings just found. The rings had all one gem slot each and they were mainly health with one resistance. I had a blue with one gem slot and two health lines, however none of them seemed directly inherited.
    Maybe it was related to the fact that the items had different levels, so maybe the stat was taken from a level 15 ring upgraded to level 16. The fact is that I was expecting a straight reference in the ingredients and I did not found any.
    To me this add more complexity in the decision and further prevent crafting at low levels (in my humble opinion)
  14. Javah

    Javah Forum Veteran

    I just have one character at lev 50 and I have tried some crafting today using the quite good items that I had accumulated in the latest days (about 10 crafts using specials and legendaries), in order to dispelling my last glimmer of hope :(

    For what I have seen, I can confirm that the bonuses are correctly inherited from the source items and their exact values are assigned to the crafted one. Also, the bonuses seemed to be chosen in an really random way, with a similar probability for all the four items, rather than having a clear focus on the 3rd and the 4th items, as feared until now.

    Anyway this doesn't change the epilogue of the story: there are so many possible combinations that, considering the destruction of 2 items after every attempt, it becomes almost impossible to obtain what you are looking for, even supposing to settle for a different result than the "perfect" one.

    Coming to what you report, I think that the difference of level in your items could explain the anomalous result (maybe the bonuses were the result of the average between items of different levels, I can not tell). You just have to try farming 4 identical items with the identical level, then try again ;)
    Rhysingstar likes this.
  15. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    The rants are even worse in game. I guess most people were expecting something different than what we got.

    Let me make this simple for you.

    If you're using green items. Each green has 1 enchantment. If all 4 have HP, the result will be a blue with 1 line of HP and 1 random.

    If you wish to get a desired result, all 4 items must have the same enchantment. If 1 has HP, 1 has damage, 1 has crit, 1 resist, you could end up with any of the above, plus the 1 random line.

    Sometimes you get lucky. I crafted 4 green rings with only dmg and my random line also gave me a nice dmg.


    Sadly this was the single best crafting experience I've had today. :mad:
    Javah likes this.
  16. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    From the notes:
    Yes there is:
    And here is a picture from in game.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    You are correct about the stat possibly being scaled up if it came from the LVL 15 item.
    This was not in the notes, but it was tested extensively by me and Trakilaki. To prove this, you could calculate what the output level of the item will be and then check what a lower level item would scale up to with the upgrade window. If you want to know what it would downgrade to if the line is on a higher level item and the result would be lower, it would take some math and the table you find here. For example, if you had a LVL 50 item with 300 HP and the resulting item would be 49 because of your other inputs, and that 300 line is inherited, it would scale to 288=(300/1.04345).
    Javah, Armando and trakilaki like this.
  17. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Meaning .... when you upgrade the item at level 50 you will still have 300HP.
    This is equal to "twink paradise". All they have to do is to get few good low level items and upgrade them during the crafting process with junk high(er) level items. :)
    Javah and _Baragain_ like this.
  18. Red_Jaeger

    Red_Jaeger Junior Expert

    Here's my feedback for Crafting 2.0 in the live servers.

    Terrible. Not only it does not help most people - it actively hinders casual users.

    Let me explain. I lost about 40 items in a matter of minutes without a single final legendary item to my liking. And that was for just two specific item types. And how could that happen? Even assuming that you already have four legendary items with not one but two very good stats in each, the chance of getting a final piece with four out of these eight enchantments is less than 4%! In a more realistic scenario, four legendaries with one yellow/good line in each, the chance drops down to 0.055%!! And you only get one shot each time, as two of your items get destroyed.

    The new system is not helpful - it is punitive and forces users into an endless grinding process. It will also immeasurably broaden the gap between casual users, who can spend just an hour or two of their time each day in the game, and people playing for many hours (and are masochistic enough to lose their time over such a stupidly repetitive process). It may not be perceptible now but this gap will become titanic in a couple of months.

    As I do not have the time to endlessly grid for hours on the off chance of making one single good item, and I strongly disagree with the amounts of gambling that were introduced into the game, I came to the decision to stop supporting the game after several years of being an active supporter (including financially). It goes without saying that I will definitely not be recommending the game to others in the future too - although, truth be told, I would not do that since last Christmas anyway.
    cogix, taketh and Troneck86 like this.
  19. Armando

    Armando Forum Connoisseur

    No. It punishes people who get seduced to gamble by throwing in legendaries with some exceptional high stats with other crappy lines.
    It rewards casual players (like me!) who will have the patience to start building good (not godlike) items from the scratch, in a somewhat planned and sustainable way.
    I am very grateful for the transparency of the system. It IS rather complex and needs some thought, but it provides all the necessary feedback about the crafting process if you know what you're doing.
  20. Javah

    Javah Forum Veteran

    Well we knew from the start. The new crafting (in the case of four legendary) is just like mix the usual soup. Hence, the need to start from 4 items above-the-average... and the anger to see 2 of them regularly burnt after each attempt.

    It is the philosophy of the game. As in the case of the jackpots, there is always someone who wins the lottery. And everything here is like a lottery (almost always driven by algorithms that are not random at all), and almost nothing is the player's ability.

    Lol. You still miss the point. So I want try again, for the last time.

    You still don't understand that, even being satisfied with the "good result" that you are saying, you will have many more chance to get it farming some boss than waiting to be kissed by "luck" in front of the workbench. And this is true unless your need is just to receive almost "any" kind of mixing among the items that you put on it.

    Unfortunately, there are players that just need a precise result, a few more that might be okay getting one between 2-3 combinations, many more that could find something useful with a relatively greater ease. For all them, the probability is beyond the human's lenght of life. And so, for all them, this workbench is TOTALLY USELESS in the practice.

    Just try to think, in terms of probability, what it means starting from 4 items having only one high bonus each one, and obtain a crafted item with two of them on it (that actually is the only not-impossible scenario while using the workbench). This is maybe what you call as a "good result"... and you will see for yourself how long time it will take. In the meanwhile, probably, you will be able to achieve a similar item while farming bosses or maps... ;)

    Ok, let's now think to all the other players - the majority as you are going to say - that can be quite happy with almost every result: well, they are the ones that DO NOT NEED of any workbench :D simply because they still have a so big range of improvement that even a few runs from Heredur mode 2 could give them something useful, in a more fun way too.

    I hope that now something could be more clear than before :p Otherwise, there are no chances that it could ever be clearer for you (more or less, the same chances that you get while using the crapbench :) )
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016