2H DPS Builds: Post R208

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by _Baragain_, Apr 26, 2018.

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  1. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I'll work on those potions after I've taken care of other "standard" builds. My first thought is that the % Crit potions won't be as useful as the %Damage potions. This goes back to the principal that Damage is uncapped, where as every other offensive stat is capped. We'll just have to wait and see.
     
  2. gbit

    gbit Forum Commissioner

    sorry Baragain, there is a thing that I don't understand and I ask you for some explanations.
    first of all I have a weak DK, no PW unique item, so I'm not experienced in end game stats and mechanics, in particular with set bonuses...I tried to make a spreadsheet from your build crit one (a sort of reverse engineering), using your formulas founded in the forum, and match all your value except the last line (smashDPS /w herald buff).
    what I found is that I can match exactly (also decimals) your value, only if the smash damage multiplier is 1, and not 2,4...now in the formula i use the attack speed value buffed (2.6667) for the smash, so i must consider the mult 2,4 and not 1, but in this way the calculation don't return your value: short story my formula used the AS for smash without the damage multiplier of smash and in this way the value match exactly.
    this incongruence is driving me mad, would you gently explain me the right proceedings for this calculation? what I'm missing? :oops:
    thanks in advice for your answer and sorry for my english.
     
  3. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're saying, but let me try to rephrase it and answer that question and you can tell me if I'm right.

    You are trying to apply a multiplier to the DPS line to get the DPS w/Herald Buff. I'm not sure where you are getting 1 and 2.4, but this is how it works.

    The set gives 150% damage when the bonus is triggered. That 150% is the same type of % damage as essence, "Attack" from wisdom, or the % damage you get from torsos, belts, and helmets. That means that it is calculated in the same step as all other % damage and isn't actually a 1.5x multiplier. The way I set up my sheet, it is easy to see how much damage you get per 100% of extra damage. Every 100% gives you the D_min and D_max values in the Global Subtotals Line, so adding 150% damage adds that amount to your damage with essence. You then use those values in the DPS calculation along with the modified attack speed line based on the 50% speed buff. I am not applying a multiplier to the DPS line to get the DPS w/Herald's set. I am recalculating the damage and using the buffed attack speed to totally recalculate the DPS for that line.
     
  4. gbit

    gbit Forum Commissioner

    yes, I calculate the +150% damage in this way, as you pointed out...so this is right. :)

    this is the point: you used the buffed attack speed (and now please tell me if I'm wrong), but the buff on AS applies only to the smash; so I must use smash; where is the 200% damage due to the using of smash? or 240% damage with 5 points talent (so we have the 2,4 multiplier)?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  5. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Ah, now I see what you were thinking. I did not apply the skill damage (x2.4) because I want this number to be able to be compared to other builds more easily. It is the same reason I don't factor in armor breaks or other skill damages into the DPH/DPS metric. Perhaps, instead of calling it DPS, it might be more accurate to use the other name that is sometimes used, "Damage Performance Index" or DPI.
     
    gbit likes this.
  6. gbit

    gbit Forum Commissioner

    your answer reassures me...now I'm more confident on my understanding formulas and reasonement, so I can test other builds.
    thank you very much for the explanation...:)

    P.S. I'm waiting for Q4, i want to see if my values match yours (that obviously will be the right one)...:D
     
  7. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I'll be doing that one sometime this weekend. I'll be comparing the "actual" damage output and the DPI for the builds.
     
    gbit and Rhysingstar like this.
  8. ROOK

    ROOK Someday Author

    Hi Baragain, i can't understand where do you find 48.00%CD on adornment, it seems Magotina one, can you explain?
     
  9. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Crit Damage runes. They come in 4%, 8%, 12%, and 16% and are obtained from the Dark Dwarf Heist. For the build I was imagining, I'm imagining the best of everything for a "final" goal, so I used 3x 16% CD runes.
    Derp.
    Someone pointed out to me that the crit damage runes go on 1H, 2H, and off-hands. Oops. I'll review the math on the earlier posts. I don't think it will change the over all rankings much, but in the interest of being accurate, my OCD will not let me leave it as is. I'll make a post commenting when I've updated everything.

    Also, let me clarify. I'm including 14% speed gems in these builds too. These builds I'm "designing" are looking for the absolute best DPH/DPS/DPI and I'm assuming this fictitious toon has what is needed to reach the absolute best. I am fully aware that newer players and even some older players don't have large sapphires, and all I can say in those cases is, sorry BigPoint cheated you out of those beauties. But I will say, if you converted any sapphire of flawless or above, that is your own fault. Trakilaki and I were practically yelling on the forums not to do it and it is times like these that those sorts of mistakes really come back to bite. If a "Best Build" requires sapphires and you don't have them, you can try to make up the speed elsewhere, but it is doubtful that the build will be quite as good.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  10. ROOK

    ROOK Someday Author

    This is actually the best built i can do with rel_208, as you can see without CRTdmg runes and, unfortunately, old zaphir.

    [​IMG]
     
    gbit likes this.
  11. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Royal Blues rules! :D
    [​IMG]
     
  12. ROOK

    ROOK Someday Author

    So you loose around 12/13.000 Crit hit from onyx, where do you get it back?
     
  13. Conqueror21

    Conqueror21 Forum Apprentice


    I suppose from his quiver,helmet (and perhaps bloodtooth rings).Anyway I wonder what his attack speed is.
     
  14. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Look no further than here.
     
  15. ROOK

    ROOK Someday Author

    I suppose we are speaking about "2h dps built" so we can't calculate critical hit from quiver...
     
  16. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    I don't lose anything ... i have crit hit and attack speed available for export .
    With the new R208/9 I will have even higher attack speed and crit (only attack speed for PvP).
    By taking offensive runes and gems out I can increase my defensive capabilities.
    Oh ... and I am not connecting it with 2H builds ... i am just saying Royal Blues rules. :)
    I am quite sure Baragain is using few of them with his 2H build too.

    On topic ... i would have to disagree with Baragain when calculating and including HP enchantments and runes in boots.
    Travel speed is very important both for PvE and PvP ... especially with the new R when you would have no travel speed boosts from wisdom especially in PvP.
    I was watching his videos ... and i must note that he is way to slow.
     
  17. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I'd agree 100% with that assessment of PvP, but in PvE, it is different depending on what you are doing. If you are speed running lower difficulties, then yes, run speed is useful because it helps speed things up. If you are a ranged character, outrunning the bad guys is important and speed allows you to position yourself well. After all, the best defense is not getting hit to begin with. But for a DK in higher difficulties, an unfortunate amount of time is spent sitting still and exchanging blows with the enemies. At those times, the HP is going to be much more useful. This is also consistent with my build philosophy:
    Once I have my "perfect" boots of Infernal III, then I can shift resources into crafting 4/4 speed boots to be used in the lower difficulties and in PvP (on the rare occasions I do PvP).

    Not bad. It took me some time to figure out all your equations and it looks like you went about it in a really round about fashion. My one critique is that it looks like you are using the wrong attack speed for your Q7 DPI unless you are purposely ignoring the 50% speed buff for Smash (which should be the whole point of looking at the buffed skill). Your speed would give you a 3.0769 break point for Herald. My other critique is that you don't have DPH, except with the Q7 bonus. DPH is important metric for comparing builds, especially when we are talking about high speed builds, but I'll cover that in a second.

    This is what my sheet looks like for your build.
    [​IMG]
    There are slight differences that I think are due to rounding errors, but most of it is the same. As said before, I'll need to relook at the other builds, but my first thoughts are that this one is even more of an essence hog than the normal Q7 build. By pushing your attack speed up over the 2.667 speed break for your normal attacks while sacrificing crit damage to do it means that you are lowering your DPH to maintain a given DPS. Low DPH with a high DPS means way more essence use. This trade off is why most of the builds I'm examining are going to max out crit damage, crit, and damage with the lowest priority being attack speed. I've not done the analysis yet since all the builds I've measured so far are essentially the same speed, but you can construct a ratio that should allow you to estimate how much more essence you will use to do the same damage output. Without doing the in depth proof, I think that this build will use about 13-15% more essence when compared to a hypothetical build that has the same DPS, but a lower speed/higher DPH. So if a boss would usually take 200 essence, with this build, it would take about 225-230. While that may not seem significant, it adds up. For example, if you are doing the Bloodmage, and you started with 5000 shining silver, this difference would reduce the number of runs you could get from 25 down to 22. Or if you are doing Dragan runs for hours and hours, you will burn through your reds faster... the examples go on, but you get the idea. It's an opinion I've shared before:
    But then, this is where we get into the "art" of a build as opposed to just the "science." The table is the science, but taking things like cool-down reductions, DPH/DPS, DoT, Breaks, etc into account is the art.

    P.S. The recalculations are still coming. Sleep is precious to me and it is getting late.
     
  18. ROOK

    ROOK Someday Author

    I forget to tell that my sheet is calculated on "rangers q7 bonus", 2.667 speed is a must to have 1 more explosive arrow.

    2.36 speed build:
    [​IMG]

    2.67 speed build:
    [​IMG]

    ...as you can see 400% crit has a better output on a single hit but 2.67 speed (1 more explosive) has a better output during both 2 sec net bonus than 10 sec net recharge circle (and even better if 40% net chance is triggered, but is too aleatory calcute it...)
     
  19. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    That makes a difference. (It also explains the %DotI runes on the helmet, I couldn't imagine a DK using them.) I can analyze the science of any build for any class, but I can only thoroughly speak to the art behind DK builds. I will take your word for it. One other minor comment. Because you are playing a RA, after R209, your base damage will increase slightly. I don't remember the exact amount and don't have time to check before I have to go, but it will increase your overall damage a little.
     
  20. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    There are no %DotI runes for helmet :p

    EDIT
    ////
    ah sorry amulet and helmet :D

    I can't imagine anyone using them in helmet or amulet
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018

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