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  1. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Okay, not that I want them to take that weapon from you, and as a matter of fact, BP rarely admits and fixes and such mistakes, and low level legendaries is a good example. So guess you are good to keep it. But. You do NOT realize the issue that weapon creates and the number of issues (=zero) it solves?

    lets rewind a litle. You are saying, and perhaps there is a consensus here, that post r155 warriors were weak. Lets define that problem.

    Weak in PVP or PVE? If PVP - in what type of tournament. If all, comparing to what class? Is it every DK that is weak, so the class is overall, or the type of a DK (2h, 1h). Is it a flag runner or a dueler.

    • Lets assume DK is getting beaten by mage. Why? perhaps the answer will be the infinity singularity, stun with chain lighting with no immunity.
    • Lets assume DK is beated by ranger. Why? perhaps the new explosive arrow is way out of something normal. Now you cry about DK is weak against ranger. Imagine what that EA does to a mage. etc

    So break down the weakness into a specific issues. Did that weapon solve any of those in a root cause? - None.

    Now, if you say entire class is weak, is it right approach to fix it not with the skillset but with an item, which not everyone is able to purchase? What kind of fix is that that helps only those who own 6k drakens? What kind of fix is that that is helpful for only 1 DK sub-style called DragonChicken. And do you really enjoy that style? Do you really enjoy that PVP they created? I hate it.

    Why would they create any OP/must have items at all? Uniques should be good, but not a something crazy. The same goes to the Mage's 3K gold royal staff. At some point I realized I only do Khalys and Mortis with the mages who own it.

    You remember old times when DK had to get the fame lvl30 or 35 to get the immunity. That system was also silly. Why would one want for a class to be unplayable at all until some moment it time? now you are saying that this weapon is the only way to go with? so what about those who dont own it yet? skip.
    ...
    I do have a DK. even though my main char is a mage, DK was the first one 3 years or more ago. And now I focus on DK. I wouldn't say PVE is hard. It is much easier with DK comparing to mage. Much. just get some 2handed, and go fight and heal. I did the m1 quests in a single day with no issues and did few m2 knights only runs on blue. With a noob DK, half slots closed, no better than polished gems.
    So let go back to PVP. It must be something wrong here. Do you really think that the very specific item is the way to fix some class issues with PVP? That even sounds silly (and here I mean real stupid or dumb).

    If I were BP decision maker, I would apologize for such an item and the need to take it back reimbursing the value in draken, followed by the gnob visit with new items that adds some good flavor into PVE. Like some faster 2h weapon. I would also create some equally good items for other classes. Mage's weapon is a joke that no one will ever use. So is the ranger's one.
    And I would finally reintroduce the stun immunity, revisit the Ranger's armor break moving it to a bird, and make further adjustments to healing, rage generation, cooldowns, and DK skills overall if required. But I doubt they will go this make. they will try to reinvent something, workaround, do something 'smart'. but the real smart is to admit mistakes and fix them in a root cause and do so like a gent in a timely manner.
    I am with you here, with a minor disagreement - rangers needed a little pick-up to fight warriors. But that shouldn't have made them OP comparing to mages, they were better even before. Now it is much worse, as archer does have the armor break plus tons of dmg on it comparing to useless singularity.
    yeah, they are afraid of losing it. some good guys afraid that potential change will impact ranger's pve ability, which I also don't want. But the overall they want to one-shot every mage in pvp.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2015
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  2. sdknightno1

    sdknightno1 Advanced

    What is all this commotion about which class is OP?

    Ranger class was never OP in PVP. Not 3 years ago and not now. Yes, the class does have high burst damage and is designed to be so. But the ranger class has very clear weaknesses.

    The number 1 weakness is its lack of reliable crowd control/stun skills. Yes, damage does matter in PvP, but as bigpoint continues to raise the damage cap while leaving the HP pool and defense relatively intact, it no longer matters whether you have 5000 or 10,000 damage. Your opponent will die in 1 or 2 hits anyway. What matters is that you hit your opponents first before he/she hits you. With respect to this, I am afraid this is where ranger falls short and where Spellweaver really shines.

    What makes the spellweaver so good at PvP? I mean, none of skills really stands out to be able to deal great damage (except destruction)...right? Not entirely. Because SW's primary skills deal elemental damage, even if 50%/50%, they will inherently deal more damage than skills that deal 75% physical. Obviously it is much easier to increase armor than it is to increase resistence. Also, when the base damage of a SW becomes high enough (ie. 2500-3000), your opponents will most likely die in a few hits anyway. So PvP becomes more like who can land and dodge the most number of hits rather than who does more damage. There is really no better class than the SW to do this: Teleportation has almost no after-delay. Combined mind-control it really is the number 1 maneuver skill. Fireball has a large projectile size which makes it harder to dodge. Yes its damage may not appear to be great if you read its description, but in practice, the burn effect adds a significant portion to its damage. And the fact that SW regenerate 12 mana/s means that they can shoot 1 fireball per 3 sec as opposed to the ranger's precision shot, which requires 4 seconds.

    Now, as for the rangers, the skill descriptions look great. Double damage on marked targets! But in reality, the marking system is double-edged sword. Without the markings, most of the ranger skills would deal the lowest damage of all 4 classes. So consider this: every time you want to deal good damage, you need 1 extra action to mark your enemy first. This 1 extra action may not matter in PvE, but in PvP it makes a huge difference. Especially as I mentioned earlier than with damage as high as today, taking 1 extra hit would be life or death. In PvP, rangers seek to mark their targets first with hunting arrows. I am not saying it is hard, but it is not exactly as easy as you imagine because hunting arrows have small projectile size. Picture a SW shooting fireballs and a ranger shooting hunting arrows at each other, if the ranger can hit the SW with hunting arrow how many fireballs do you think the SW can hit the ranger? And if the SW then debuffs the marking the ranger would have to mark again. How many more fireballs do you think the rangers will take? Just to add, the "OP" armor break on explosive shot only applies if arrow hits marked target.


    It is just a matter of different play styles with different classes. SWs are the master of maneuver and CC; their skills are also more spammable and easier to hit. Rangers on the other hand are more like snipers, the skills are not as spammable with less concentration regen, and hitting your opponents with full damage is hader because it requires 2 consecutive hits. But when the arrows do hit, it makes a great impact.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  3. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Ranger was always better comparing to a mage. I know enough archers that were never or rarely beaten by mages, even the #1 pros on the server. They have had more HP, more armor, 5% faster weapons. They were champions of burst outfield play, so they are now. They can force a mage into that hit&run play while mage cannot force them into their comfort play, if there is one. Now things are worse, ranger has even more burst damage, and every noob ranger has 10k+ shot is his pocket. They still have 5% more speed, which is 6% more dmg, or 9% more hp. And they still do their hit&run thing waiting for concentration to restore. They run into an outfield and there is nothing, none, mage can do with that. And as you said, once he is back in a game, he is a champion of a burst play.
    Every skill you mentioned mages have are useful against warriors and dwarfs, not rangers. Crowd control? Really? Stuns? One mid-range frost wind which is also useless against an outfielder? The other one is completely useless. Teleport is the only way to get out so is used as a defensive measure. Singularity is completely useless. There is no reliable skill against rangers besides fireball which is much much less damage.

    Even if your numbers were right, to get 3K 1H damage is quite a lot of work, without sacrificing the armor and hp. You need to be a pro. But even that is far from the one hit. Is successful, ranger will run away with 50-80% hp and get ready for another burst round. And he will have three rounds to one shot mage, and he will.

    It is all so obvious, even mods on some languages forums accept ranger-mage is one way now. But you are free to say whatever you want. Tho I'm sure you kill all the mages that are equel in stats or not much higher. No? I know the answer so do not bother to reply.
     
  4. Shiladitya

    Shiladitya Padavan


    As I said: skill system, item system, is at the moment 'Broken' . If developers do not address it soon (with the help of experts if required, please, no more "bandages"), it could be a game breaking thing. Just taking feedback and more feedback will only support the system, not heal it. If you want to heal it permanently, i am sure there are professional pvp system designers out there. take help, be creative, if you have to, make separate skills for every category, but please don't take the 'one solution fits all' route. Please move away from extremes to balance.
     
    sebastian_fl likes this.
  5. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    I'm sure they are tracking fund raised due to PVP. I and lots of my friends will not step there until major redesign. Hopefully more players will follow.
     
  6. sdknightno1

    sdknightno1 Advanced

    Funny, I know enough mages that were never or rarely beaten by archers, even the #1 pros on the server. And frankly, all the mages that have equal my stats can kill me very quickly before I can land any shots on them (You have seen my stats?).

    Have you ever been hit with 5k fireballs?

    Also, minor point but SW wands have 5% less speed but higher base damage. SW also has true 2H weapon that rangers don't have. Give SW a decent 2H staff and he/she can burst like a ranger. And for SW 2H weapons are actually viable in PvP since they don't need to shoot and magic missile and then a fireball and hoping that both would hit.

    Have you ever, ever been hit with 5k fireballs?

    Let's be realistic here, in mid range as you said SWs have useful skills against every other classes except rangers (of course the SWs don't expect to dominate EVERY other classes in PVP, do they?). But I have to disagree that rangers completely dominate outfield battle. The sneaky "cowardly" play styles I have seen. But the outcomes of those play styles are not that great. Not if you're blindly firing shorts into the distance hoping that both your hunting arrow AND precision shot would hit. Sure, they may survive for a long time, but the accuracy of the burst damage is much less. Against, I stress that the rangers require 2 consecutive hits within a short amount time while SW requires just 1. And it's not like ranger skills have longer range than SW. Have you seen a ranger and SW trading long range shots? I promise you that the fireball comes at a much higher frequency than the precision/explosive shots. And do I even have to comment on the concentration requirement of explosive shot? At 66 concentration it requires at least 8 seconds to recharge, 8 SECONDS. So it's not like rangers can pull it out of their pockets like nothing. If it misses, that's 66 concentration wasted. And trust me, it is ever so easy to miss in PvP.

    If you still think ranger is the KING of outfield battle, then next time you enter a PvP match, I want you to observe how many rangers will do nothing but outfield battle for the entire match. Also tell me how hard was it to close the gap between you and the outfield ranger. Also take into consideration the type of match. Ie. how can you be in a outfield position against all 5 of your enemies in a 5v5?

    Last but not least, have you ever, ever ever been hit with 5k fireballs? And Tell me, is there a difference for someone who has 5k HP whether he/she is hit with a 5k fireball or a 10k arrow?
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  7. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    We are once again in a conversation about Who's OP and once again it's addressing the wrong things. All of this is symptoms of whats really broken and it doesn't help to perpetuate this. Lets stay focused on the real problems and not get drawn off by the same 4 year old conversations that point to specific skills and why does this class have x and i dont questions.

    Haruki, this is all the result of the broken defense system characters now have. A series of posts and threads addressing the symptom of too much damage compared to mitigation. All classes have super high damage potential with either new skills and/or newly awarded boosts in R155. It's super fun in PVE, not the case in PVP. Until you address the fact that toons of all classes can put out 20k damage in 3 seconds against other toons with very good defense you have not fixed the problems and will continue to get this kind of sidetracked discussion. What you did for the DK's with the mace was the right move if you give that sort of option to the other classes also. Where it totally misses the mark is its isolated application. You didn't geve DK's better defense, you gave them a way to overcome the lack of defense they needed in the first place. It excacerbates the problem because now you have to hit them fewer times with bigger numbers to overcome the healing. FIX THE DEFENSEIVE MITIGATION and all this will go away and we can back to the petty OP arguments.
     
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  8. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    5k vs 10K is no difference? 2h is a whole another topic. Those chose the first hits wins kind of play. 2h is also no armor, and ranger can burst with a shield. Mage has to work hard as hell to reach such burst values, rangers have them by default on a straightforward reliable skill. I have 5.5k+ dmg 2h at a 1.58 speed, so what? Even that is not one hit dead. I'm field marshal, believe me, I know exactly how the top players play. And the top archers on Grimmag play outfield hit&run against strong mages. All of them. Not that is wrong, BP designed them to do so. If they gave them 'that much' useful skils, what else should they do. If we assume mages and archers were on par pre r155, are you also saying both has been improved equally and got eqully useful skills against each other? Anyway, let's agree to disagree, hope they have the stats. Enjoy mageless arena without real fight. Hopefully you will get bored by the domination faster. Good luck.
    Damage mitigation is a separate, but I agree really important topic. The OP skill topic has its fair place on the table. Even if they limit points can be spent on attack, some specific skills can still deal massive damage from noob characters who didn't even farm that much to deserve such values.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  9. sdknightno1

    sdknightno1 Advanced

    "Deserve" is such a harsh word. Does every SW then deserve the 750% damage destruction bean? And the endless stuns from chain lightning that has 0 mana cost?

    But yeah, let's agree to disagree. You think rangers are "OP" with their armor break shot. I think SWs are "OP" with their newly gained 50% increased weapon damage talent which blew their damage out of proportion.

    I know you want your class to be the best. You already dominate the dwarfs (check), and the DKs (check), and now you want to dominate the rangers too (check pending...).
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  10. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Damage mitigation in PvP is a topic that I have given a lot of though on, particularly because of the nerfing of the DKI'll see what you all think about it.

    None of the changes pegged for R157 assist in helping DKs close the gap with ranged players in PvP before they get shredded. An average SW/Ranger can kill an average DK in a few hits. A good SW/Ranger can easily kill a good DK long before they can close in - often in just a single hit. This is because the big dmg boost that ranged players received while DKs got no significant defensive improvements, means that PvP has now become a case of the first player to hit, wins.

    Reducing by a flat percentage might work, but a better method would be to modify damage in PvP using a function/curve. The more damage the user has, the greater the damage reduction. The curve would have to be well crafted so that it is not unbalanced, but would effectively serve to normalize damage a bit and correct for the “extreme builds” without weakening the low damage tank DK builds so much that they would never be able to kill another player, even if they could catch them. For example, If a user has 6000 damage, they would have 50% reduction in PvP down to 3000, but a user with 5000 damage might only get reduced by 45% to 2750. On the low end, it may be as little as 10%-20% meaning a DK with 1000 damage might only go down to 800 or 900 damage which is nowhere near as bad as going down to 500 damage (based on the proposed 50% flat rate). If this curve also varied based on level, it could serve to normalize damages in low level PvP. In LVL 10 PVP, 600 damage is just about as bad as 6000 damage at LVL 50, so this method could benefit low level PvP as well. The catch is that any value over 50% actually begins to have a negative impact on the normalization, thereby making a linear curve insufficient, but a logistic curve that approaches 50% would be perfect and at higher damages is virtually indistinguishable from the flat 50% proposed above. (for example: I used a constant of 0.00062 to set the value at 1000 damage as close to 15% as seen in the image below)
    [​IMG]

    To me, it feels like BP had things well balanced at LVL 40, well enough balanced at 45, but then when 50 came out, things just went nut. Further more, when even higher levels come out, things will be even worse unless the developers take a much more mathematical approach to their scaling of monsters, gems, damage reduction... the works. If they do not, we will see this happen at LVL 55, 60, 65... etc... but what do I know? I'm not a game design professional, well versed in totally messing up the balance of a MMO hack and slash to the point where it (PvP) is unplayable and unenjoyable. :p
     
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  11. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    400% of base dmg on a single unmarked EA vs 130% on fireball? Keep arguing. Destruction? You can have it. Its use barely exeeds 5% of players in PvP for a reason. I will give it up for the EA nerf to adequate levels.

    Luxury tax / marginal taxation? Could be a spot on. Will force the players out of extremes and make the pvp builds more balanced. Could applied to HP as well. Actually, such a concept was already in place for critical hit, armor, resist. Not for CH anymore.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  12. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    Haruki, the progression of titles for achievements make no sense once you get past Legend. Mythos is not a descriptor for a person and is improper use of the word as a title in english. You do not say someone is a Mythos, you say they are Mythical. The title should be Mythical.

    Next comes Demigod, ok that one is cool, but the one after that is Messenger of the Demigods. How do you go from being one to being one of their servants or of lessor status than a Demigod. That one should be Diety.

    The next one is Hero of the Demigods. Hero is already in there as a title and again if you were a Demigod, why are you less after you get more points? May I suggest Immortal here.

    Titan is a cool title and excellent choice. So, I suggest the following progression from legend.

    Mythical
    Demigod
    Diety
    Immortal
    Titan
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  13. sdknightno1

    sdknightno1 Advanced

    130% + 90% burn = 220% and FIRE DAMAGE. Yeah also 35 mana (3s) vs 66 concentration (8s). Do you know why the rangers fight you in outfield? Because they know that if they trade hunting arrows with your fireballs in midfield it will spell their death faster than they can say "death". So you're right, don't blame them for adapting to their play style. It's only natural.

    My bottom line is: SWs are already adapt at making numerous hits on their enemies before the ememies can react, so the 1 hit the ranger does make has to count.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  14. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Burn is avoidable. And base is 50% fire dmg, 50% elemental. Double hit resets the counter, so it's not like 6x of burn, but the same 3x. Which is again avoidable. Ranger's double hit is sure dead mage. Lots of mages will not survive 1 unmarked hit from an archer, especially in case of a crit, game over. Okay, I will stop here. It is a wrong place to discuss. You are not an addressee of my concerns, it is a CM feedback loop thread. Don't get why you argue with me. Are you upset with the fact I want to ask Haruki's opinion?
     
  15. sdknightno1

    sdknightno1 Advanced

    I'm sure, burn is avoidable. Just jump away only to be frozen by freeze wind, or yeah use that adrenaline while your concentration is full. If both skills are in cooldown no problem, just jump into water. Double hit resets counter? If the ranger was already hit with 2 fireballs right away I don't think he has much longer to live...

    Also, I know it's 50% (read my previous posts). As much as you want your fireballs to deal 100% fire, just be satisfied with 50%, which is higher than the 25% of ranger skills.

    Ranger double hit is not always dead mage and a lot of mages DO survive 1 unmarked hit from ranger. Especially when ranger has great crit, he's most likely wearing a quiver instead of shield. Quiver ranger will be dead in 2-3 fireballs. With shield my ranger barely has any crit. Tell me what are the chances of me making a marked double shot and also crit? Or are you telling all rangers to play without mark?

    I already addressed my concerns that some of you are addressing the wrong concerns. My first post was peaceful, but then you were quick to jump at me. It seemed like you wanted a good argument but now you are wondering why we're having this discussion...huh?
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  16. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    I do not find your arguments to be any good, they make zero sense to me and seem to be taken out of some virtual ranger's world, I do not get your reasoning, I do not get how 130 is better than 400. What I see in reality is that noob archers with not a lot of glyphs, gems, experience, no skills, are able to oneshot hardcore mages that have been around since demo. Any noob. 2K damage, low speed, dragan set, shield. Tons of damage from such a defensive noob. The way i see your viewpoint might make sense is when everyone has 200,000 HP, and there is no place for one hit dead and you need to plan your combos real well. But that is from the damage mitigation topic. So I want to apologize again and stop here. And finally I'm not seeking an archer's opinion but the BP opinion on the matter. I apologize if any of above insults you. Guess you can stop here as well, huh.
     
  17. sdknightno1

    sdknightno1 Advanced

    Since you have your closing remarks, please allow me my closing remarks:

    I agree, let's stop here. I do not want to continue this anymore than you do. My first post was addressed to Bigpoint from a ranger's perspective with all my ranger experiences. It is unfortunate that it didn't make sense to you, but then I didn't expect much since you are pro ranger-nerf. I guess to me, it didn't make sense why the SWs, who have already gained so much from r155, and who are dominating the PvP arena still seek to belittle a class that has long been out-powered by SWs and DKs before r155. Class balancing is not something that we can decide. I will trust the DSO development team's judgement on this matter.

    And please don't take your frustrations out on an entire class just because 1 ranger whom you think is "noob" killed your almighty SW in PvP.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  18. Armando

    Armando Forum Connoisseur

    Dear Haruki,
    this has been the second night/morning with login problems (seemingly a problem with the authentication server).
    What's going on, and are your technicians doing something about it apart from restarting the server every morning?

    Also, there has been evidence in the German forum that by now, support admits that there had been a bug (fixed last week) which led to some players getting way more of the desired cloaks from Dragan hard than normal random and luck would allow.
    Could you please give us an official statement what happened there?
    If BP would be willing to compensate those who were not so "lucky" for numerous costly Dragan runs without the drop, I think it would be fair to include another 2nd-level-cloak in the rewards of the 4th challenge. (as I finally completed the set with all my 3 main chars, this is not begging for my own cause but for general justice...)

    Third, some more information about the current ideas/designs for crafting 2.0 and the new fighting capabilities system would be much appreciated.
    I would think these topics could use some player feedback BEFORE they come, nearly finished and unchangeable, to the test server...

    Many thanks in advance, and get well soon!
     
  19. Darwarren

    Darwarren Count Count

    The BigPoint server crashes go a long way to explain all the lag and rubber-banding.
    Is it really so simple? Crappy equipment, or inadequate personnel?

    The XP glitch let a lot of twinks make out like bandits. Is BigPoint going to hire more/better programmers?
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  20. littlemichel

    littlemichel Active Author

    no rollback for player deliberately using " the xp hormone " to gain faster leveling ? even they break the TOS (using the xp bug) lol nice job such double standard :rolleyes: ; ,don't make such excuse with "will be hard to implement a roll back ", U guys can easy fixing the wisdom knowledge level , do u know most the "bugger xp" has 50 M xp point ,I knew a few bugger xp even has more than 100m xp (
    hope they not forget to reset this too before next expansion)
    , more than us with normal leveling (48M) not including they benefit with undone quests (nice xp for next expansion ) , let say such quest at level 45 to 50 , they got it without pain and spending just less than 30 minutes ,come on ,seriously this is "best joke of the year " from this game after r155 ,I knew a lot heavy payer in heredur did this bug (I knew cause they parked their char at level 45 , even the famous youtubers ranger ( who made campaign againts the booters ,lol for me he became such hypocrite) from heredur server using this bug too ,
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
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