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Discussion in 'Headquarters Archive' started by CM Greg, Jul 14, 2015.

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  1. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    NOOOOOOO, not another one of these!!!! Just because you don't see how it would be abused doesn't mean that it can't or wouldn't. I have talked about this one in great detail (along with just about every other variant of "trade" that you can think about) in the past and there are two problems with this particular one.

    First, IF you implement something like this, you should only be able to share gems between your "End Game" characters (end game in my opinion is LVL cap -5 levels). Otherwise, this will be abused by every twink in the game. They will take their uber gems from their main toons and move them their level 5-25 AKotOs and Flag Bearers and make life even more miserable in low level PvP... and we all know how much I can't stand twinks. :mad:

    Second is the friend invite bonuses. I know this one may seem obvious once I explain it, but BP did not put an ounce of thought into it when they removed the cost to delete a character, and because of that, we saw a bug where people were making hundreds of characters to get free andermant from the boxes. Every new toon made would come with a +10 ruby and a +2.5% sapphire. If you let people trade gems in between characters, people will begin spam creating characters and transferring the gems to their main accounts. Even if you impose the level restriction that I already talked about, that just means that you make the new account for andermant farming, and then when you reach LVL 45, you also get to transfer those two gems and any others you farmed on your way to 45 as a bonus before deleting the character and starting again.
    I don't mean to be condescending, but trade, in almost ANY form, is the worse single "improvement" that could ever happen to this game.
    I did detail one method that could work, but even that is pushing it. Once I track down the thread, I'll post the link.

    EDIT:
    Found it.
    Click the arrow to see the original. I omitted the opening part where I explained how easy it would be to take advantage of an Andermant based trade system and went right onto the actually usable and well thought out method to implement trade.
    So, with the exact same challenge I made almost two years ago, don't just point out flaws, come up with a solution or alternative.

    EDIT 2:
    I went looking because I knew this idea looked familiar. Here it is, identical to what you are suggesting with all the same problems.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
    Bubble and Darwarren like this.
  2. Master0fpuppets

    Master0fpuppets Forum Baron

    Ok, so last night I went to my ranger I don't play at all to see what skills do ranger have now and got very upset when I see the skill, some of them are:
    - I can stunt him as a tank every 10s where ranger can de-buff that ever 7s
    - Ranger can slow down non-stop -10%
    - Ranger can brake armor -85% couse who know how many damage with last skill since the 150% gets up 2x by 33% to 200% and deals damage when hit and then expode damage so 400% + braking armor to -85% (rediculous - don't know what where you people thinking, this is to much)
    - Almost every skill have cooldown reduce and +33% damage (why?)
    - Tank get nerfed and the ranger does not (why?)
    So the question would be:
    Why does the ranger need to have so much power and are the dev's ever gonna nerf the ranger?

    PS: Some guys that play ranger admit explode arrow has to much power + the slowdown -10% and add to that they dont consume contrecation points at all and do not have cooldown for exploding arrow skill. You did fine job or destroying the tank and making the ranger ultimate char in game, bravo to that!
     
    sebastian_fl likes this.
  3. littlemichel

    littlemichel Active Author

    just want make clear , U can have 3 stuns (1 stun has possibility no CD bleeding+charge )so I suppose if pro enough U don't need wait every 10 s only to make stun , and than the shortest debuff ranger can have 9s (dive with reduce CD selected) not 7s.
    another fact U will be more shock with your claim about that "slow down non sense" sorry I mean "slow down non stop " it has more OP than -10 , it has -30% and can be more OP - 40%.
    so conclusion ,next time You try play with ur SM u never play at all ,and I believe ,U will get more WOW and AWW with the fact , you can has possibility to stun them every bleeding+ charge combo +your others 2 stuns ,but Hey they can fly like superman and debuff ur stun with no time or they just stand under tesla coil and immune to ur stun . in next day U play with ur SW u never play ,I believe , U will more upset , just for the record , they has ice missile and it has more "OP "slow down effect ,-50% and attack speed -15.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
    BigPapa likes this.
  4. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    I doubt you will get any reasonable response on this subject if any. Neither from ppl, nor from Haruki. She seems to provide inaccurate answers in lots of cases, or just ignore or abandon topics without going into details to understand the issue. Additionally, there were so many threads and posts like 'this class is OP' that anyone posting something new on that matter is attacked, or is not considered seriously. You will get plenty of nonsense explanations from archers of why it should be so, and that archers are not the winners of the release, that mages can also hit hard. And they fail to understand that if whatever mage can hit hard, similar archer will hit 4x times or more harder with that shot. I mean, just relax, and forget about that. The only viable options are to stop PVPing, stop paying, start playing archer yourself, or look for another daily routine. They wouldn't even accept the problem exists, like they did with dragan capes, with the knowledge tree damage bonus nerf (now works as another % instead of going straight to the base as before), tons of bugs, low level items, etc. And the whatever fix they would take would be like a DK weapon from gnob, absurd desicion to adjust something with an item instead of addressing it in a root cause.
     
    Master0fpuppets likes this.
  5. Master0fpuppets

    Master0fpuppets Forum Baron

    Just to be clear, I will not even try to read or answer any of your posts 'couse I asked the CM's, you sure are not CM's of DSO. Have nice day. :)
     
  6. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    Thats unfortunate since some are trying to empathize with you.
     
  7. Master0fpuppets

    Master0fpuppets Forum Baron

    Oh fine, I'll read it.
     
  8. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    He is talking about level 50 items being weaker than a level 40 items.
    The enchantments on level 50 items are not suitable for the level ... maybe they would be good if they were in level 40 item ... or below.
    One example

    [​IMG]

    So basically after the removal of COTs ... the crafting has become obsolete and unwanted game feature. No one is crafting anymore ... because it leads only to spending resources and getting nothing in return.
    The R155 and level 50 expansion made this issue even worse. Getting level 50 items with weak enchantments ... suitable for level 40 or below ... getting shields with not a single block rate enchantment (why would I need stupid armor or HP on a shield) and even if one manages to get shield with block rate it is usually 20-25%.
    To make the situation even worse ... the extraordinary items have better enchantment values than a legendary items.
    At the end we can state that legendary level 50 items have enchantments of a blue/magic level 40 items.
     
  9. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Like it. No, I love it. And the block rate on shields, there was a fix in February or so to make block rate more frequent line on the shields due to player's frustration caused adding offensive attributes to a shield = decreasing the chance of block rate lines. Bet they have unfixed that fix with r155
     
  10. sdknightno1

    sdknightno1 Advanced

    If the developers does the unimaginable thing of nerfing the rangers right now which class do you think will be next in line to nerf? I've tested in pvp recently. The explosive shots I have taken from other rangers were mostly 3-4k. The ice spheres I've taken from SWs were also 3-4k. I guess it is expected since ice spheres' damage is around 200-300% with the explosion (and only 4 seconds to recharge the mana).
     
  11. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    If the mage that can hit 4k with the ice sphere was an archer, it would be much more, 6k? Plus ability to 'double' if marked. Plus it is very unreliable skill thanks to its mid range, and the damage area limited to the place it explodes. EA on the other way is a distance, easy to cast common skill similar to mage's fireball. You cannot really compare iceball with EA.

    And finally I have no problems with Ice Ball nerf. Those who adopt it rely in some% of cases on the unintentional hits, often do extreme damage builds, and I would not consider it a serious playstyle. Additionally, as I said sometime before, ranger has all the measures to force mage into an outfield-burst-off field kind of play, which will make iceball useless.

    Don't take me wrong. I do want rangers having armor break. I do want them to have nice skills, perhaps a change towards a diverse playstyle away from the hit&run. EA is the single best, most usefull skill of all skills of all classes in the game. In addition to its insane damage (Dev has nerfed the original mage's destruction from 600% to 500r% btw), it has the easy casting no cool down armor break, while mages have no, assuming 1v1 between the two. Singularity is a no use against ranger.
     
  12. mike125

    mike125 Forum Apprentice

    So why, when rangers hits me that arrow makes double dmg (hits me twice)? Hmm, I guess BP wrote it wrong as usual.. Don't tell me you didn't notice it when you play as a ranger. Normally when rangers hits me it firstly takes around 1-2k and the explosion takes 4-7k (I just tested for you again). And yeah I think it's fair. Can black hole or iron brow kill you with one hit? No, it can't ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
  13. sdknightno1

    sdknightno1 Advanced

    Yeah but rangers' damage is limited by their weapons. You don't see rangers walking around with easy 5k base damage. Now, thanks to the increased damage on 2h staff and the 50% weapon damage wisdom talent, every noob mage can walk around with 5k damage. Ice sphere is actually easier to use than you imagine, that's why so many SWs have adapted to use that skill in PvP now. It may not be the best skill to use in long range fights, but against DKs it is a killer.

    In contrary to what you believe, rangers actually do not have the all the measures to FORCE mage into outfield play. The only 2 skills that comes into mind is bird of prey and adrenaline. But then bird of prey travels at the speed of a snail and SWs can easily close the outfield gap and force it into midfield play with mind-control teleport.

    Yeah about armor break, the developers has intentionally made the ranger's armor break duration short. Even at its maximum duration of 3 sec PvE, rangers can only get 1-2 shots in during that time. With the armor break shortened to 2 seconds in PvP, the difficulty of getting another shot at your opponent while their armor is broken is even higher. The opponent has to be pretty much standing still for it to happen. For rangers, it is more for burst damage than for armor break in PVP. The armor break is mainly for PvE.

    In contrary, the DKs iron brow has a stun attached to it and has a longer armor break. Therefore, it is actually more likely to land a few hits on the opponent with broken armor in PvP.

    Singularity is not all useless in PvP. Given the right situations you can pretty much trap your opponents in it and make them immobile given that it also slows them down a great deal. Ie. Wait until dragon hide wears off from a flag-carrying DK and then freeze+singularity.
     
  14. sdknightno1

    sdknightno1 Advanced

    Simple, because there is such a thing as critical hit ;).
     
    sebastian_fl likes this.
  15. mike125

    mike125 Forum Apprentice

    When it hits you twice = critical hit? :rolleyes:
     
  16. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Some of what you say makes sense to me, but I am not talking mage vs dk here. I'm very good against dk as a mage. I'm very good as a DK against mages. But here I talk strictly Mage vs Archer. I don't want it to be like it was before - to beat a DK, you wanna be mage. To beat a mage, you wanna be an archer, to beat an archer, you wanna be a warrior. It doesnt make sense.

    So now when we talk mage vs archer, I only talk 1h variants of a balanced build. You can go all-in with 2h, but that is intentional hit or die kind of a play. Plus this 2h maniac is a single shot dead in most cases. Lets talk balanced builds. And 5k is not that easy I must say. I can reach 5.8k on green with 0 crit, slow boots at 1.58 speed. Thats a lot but I'm far from a noob. With faster boots and more or less balanced armor and hp it will be 5.2k max, 0 crit. Use this build for m2 5k solo run. But this is with 100m glyphs, royal gems etc. Even that is not very usefull in 1v1, 3v3. The only viable option is 5v5, we're you would respawn. Kill and die kind of play. So again, let's talk end game balanced builds.

    Now when we talk balanced builds, let's rollback to pre155. IMO archers were beating equal mages. But let's say they were on par. Now, which of two classes is a clear winner of the release with a highly reliable easy casting tons of damage + potential to double that tons of damage skill?

    Now let's view it from the different angle. MC+teleportation has pretty big cooldown. Singularity - it is so hard to get an archer into it, that not a lot of mages even would waste points on it if they knew they would be fighting archers, trust me. The stuns are short range=useless and a mid range=somewhat useless. There us just one reliable antistun, the teleportation. The rest - various ranged and midrange missiles. The most reliable would be a fireball, but it is at least three times less than EA. Concentration-less attack would be either magic missile, ice, or chain lighting. All of those have benefits, but the green archer's arrow is clear winner again. Not only it does damage, it prepares for double damage, and also slows down. Nice combo, isn't it? So smart mage would need to take preventive actions, right? And that slowdown lasts forewer.

    As soon as mage gets into a midfield, archer has a bird and an adrenaline, both very usefull to prepare for another burst. Plus at a mid range mage isn't a clear winner, it is easier to hit him for a ranger too.

    If we even talk dumb numbers, archer would kill a mage much faster, as he wouldnt sacrifice defence to reach crazy numbers. So in order to close that gap, mage has to do something with some skills, none of which exist. And so on.

    Ah yes, with okay crit hit it is not uncommon that either EA hit or explosion will be a crit

    Upd: running is also a way to force into an outfield/off the field play. When concentration restored, archers are pretty comfortable with a midfield. What can you do with that assuming MC on cooldown?

    Also bird is much better field control skill than any of the mage skills.

    And on the armor break. Even though I think it should have been another skill, a bird, trap, net, whatever, I don't care that much. Huge damage is what freaks me out. Huge damage in defensive mode.

    And finally a disclaimer. It all sounds like I'm an archer hater. I'm not one, and I don't want to be one. Some of my best friends in the game play an archer. It just makes me sad, and I quit PVPing, and m2 is all left in the game for me, even though I used to be a hardcore pvp player, field marshal. Had to start (get back to forgotten 3 years ago) another character to keep some enjoyment in a game I like. I would hate to shop around after so much time/funds invested and so many friends made because some of the Dev pros cannot figure it out. Not just in this specific case. Overall arena is a joke. Remainds me of q2-q3, Q being another game.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
  17. sdknightno1

    sdknightno1 Advanced

    To me, to reach perfect PvP balance one has to consider all classes and I actually liked the idea of each class being strong against one other class and weak against another. I think bigpoint is on the right track of creating a unique play style for each of the classes each with different strengths and weaknesses:

    What does the ranger have in PVP? The high damage comes first into mind. But the ranger’s high damage is different from SWs high damage. It is the burst type damage that is able to kill the opponent fast if hit but at the same time takes a long time to recover if missed. Also in terms of the stuns, ranger has the worst stuns. Together, these are weaknesses of the ranger.

    What does the SW have in PVP? The damage is less burst but more consistent DPS type. Each hit deals less but takes less time to recover so they can fire more shots. SW also has excellent crowd control and escape skills which is much important for PvP than for PvE. Pre-r155 SWs also had the honor tree skills cyanite shield and 1000% damage nova explosion which IMO really offset the balance scale towards them. I mean, cyanite shield really got rid of the only weakness of the SW – its lower HP and armor.

    What does the DK have in PVP? The DKs is the only class with a reliable HP regen ability in PVP. DKs also have higher base HP and equipment HP and armor. They have 3 stuns in PVP and excellent gap-closer skills, all of which deals damage at the same time. This led to what was the known as the hit-and-run style of DK pvp play. But they are not to blame because their greatest weakness is being melee.

    To me, this is what PVP should look like and it is up to the players to use their strengths against their enemies’ weaknesses. Taking away the only strength of the rangers is not the way to balance PVP.
     
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  18. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Again, if you need to recover, you run. If you want to force him back to play - nothing you can do. Crowd control in 1v1 vs archer? Really? :) isnt bird a good stun+dmg+field control comparing to frost wind? Escape skill, really? One teleport? Or two. And this escape is combined with 'crowd control'. Archer has jump, dance, adrenaline.

    Okay. So you say you like one class is better than the other. 1. Are you saying you agree equal archer is somewhat stronger than mage? And 2. Who can beat archer now assuming tanks have no 6k draken weapon.
     
  19. Rory34390

    Rory34390 Someday Author

    HI,
    [​IMG]

    This is just unacceptable, a lower level lower rank player beats me with no skill or powerful stats.
    This sm has used the over powered sm healing and stun break by using:
    Fully skilled steam conductor with a cost of 15 steam that regenerates 5% of their hp everytime and gives travel speed.
    Fully skilled tactical turret that increases travel speed, armour resistance damages me and regenerates 20% of their steam.
    Rocket pack with stun break and no cooldown with 30 steam cost.

    This guy was in tank mode with full dragan and very low damage. With 2 tactical turrets he regenerated 38 steam everytime one of the bombs hit him and could tank me being able to regenerate over 10% of his hp every SECOND! (was +350 hp everytime he used steam conductor) this combined with 2 mechanical turrets resulted in my hp being drained very slowly whilst his went up every second. When the turrets ran out he would instantly put 2 tactical turrets again and repeat the whole process. By the time I was killed by him he was still at full hp! As you can see I did 19k damage without killing him when he has only around 6.5k hp.
    This is should be looked at and the sm be rebalanced as this is completely unfair.

    Thanks.
     
  20. Shiladitya

    Shiladitya Padavan


    Valid points. But the benefit is a much needed benefit at this stage of the game, the points u said can be restricted by simply binding sharing to just gems, maximum upto 3 times for a single account per new class introduction. introducing draken charge or a ander charge of about 500k anderments per 3 trades. i am sure lots of people would like to try out the the full potential of the new class with end game gems and items. items can be farmed, but if every new class introductions need a new tier of sacred/royal gems to be bought then that's not fair. the trading can also be restricted to lvl50 trade only and to a recently introduced class only. again twinking and exploitation are root cause problems. dso attitude of holding a temporary bandage has to be done away with and fix the root cause. plenty of games out there have shared banks. its a good feature to have. twinking and exploitation are features which dso developers have to address from the root. well until it is addressed they can just put restrictions on the sharing as said above.
     
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