Crafting 2.0.3 :-[

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by _Baragain_, May 21, 2016.

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  1. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    So we started with the idea of Crafting 2.0 ages ago... it was a nebulous idea that was undefined and had a lot of promise.

    All we knew was that it would somehow give us influence over the crafting result. Then came Crafting 2.0.1 where we were told about being able to pass stats on and even revert a craft gone wrong, but we were told that we'd only get one item back. This was a painful proposition that sounded like it would be ages before we'd get a good item, but it was a significant improvement over the existing random system.

    Then, a couple weeks later, they told us that they had made a mistake! You'd get all 4 items back after a bad craft and the only sacrifice was the gold that you used to attempt the craft to begin with! This was Crafting 2.0.2. It was glorious! PigPoint demonstrated that they listened to what the players wanted, and my testing on the test server using about 190k gold said that this system was very reasonable. It would take time, but nice items were very within reach.

    Then some idiots provided some awful feedback based on their feelings as opposed to hard fact and math (like what I do) and whined "Getting all 4 items back is OP!!!" as if somehow spending nearly 10k gold per awesome legendary is easy and game breaking, and that is just if the person crafting is as smart as me or read my previous guide. I would have never thought that people would be so stupid as to ASK for a global nerf. :confused: That being said, I hoped for once that BP would ignore these noobs and do right by the players. I should have know better than to hold my breath. That leads us to today... Crafting 2.0.3. Now, you get two items back (as opposed to one in crafting 2.0.1), but it is a total kick in the nuts after teasing us with the nearly perfect Crafting 2.0.2. So, because I care about helping you all, even if BP doesn't, I'm providing you my latest analysis to know what to expect from this most recent SNAFU (Situation Normal, All Fouled Up) from PigPoint. My only hope is that it will be enough to convince BP to change their mind.

    I'll follow a similar pattern to what I did in the Crafting 2.0.2 thread, but this time I'll leave out information on the andermant costs of slots due to reasons to be explained later. I'll include the costs at the beginning just as an FYI.

    First, Here are the costs for crafting at each rarity at LVL 50, in Crafting 2.0.2 and 2.0.3:
    Improved-->Magic: 3 Gold, 84 Silver, 80 Copper--->2 Gold, 7 Silver, 20 Copper (30 Andermant)
    Cost to revert: 51 Silver, 80 copper (8 Andermant)
    Magic-->Extraordinary: 14 Gold, 80 Silver--->7 Gold, 40 Silver (59 Andermant)
    Cost to revert: 1 Gold, 85 Silver (15 Andermant)
    Extraordinary-->Legendary: 118 Gold, 40 Silver--->59 Gold, 20 Silver (474 Andermant)
    Cost to revert: 14 Gold, 80 Silver (119 Andermant)
    Legendary-->Legendary: 222 Gold--->111 Gold (888 Andermant)
    Cost to revert: 25 Gold, 75 Silver (222 Andermant)

    With the exception of Green->Blue, the prices were cut in half... This is good, but is it enough to overcome how they screwed us over when it comes to items? We'll find out.

    Second, Lets cover the cost to add gem slots to items:
    Improved: 20 / 60 / 180 / 540 / 1620 Andermant.
    Magic: 100 / 300 / 600 / 1200 / 3600 Andermant.
    Extraordinary: 400 / 1200 / 3600 / 10800 / 32400 Andermant.
    Legendary: 1600 / 4800 / 14400 / 43200 / 129600 Andermant.

    Previously, it was advantageous to add slots to items before crafting in order to get an item out with more slots and save andermant in the long run. However, because two items will be destroyed, it is no longer in your best intrensts since you never know when or how often you will have a bad craft. The best you can hope for is to fine items with 4 slots to use in any "junk" spots that you may have.

    A nomenclature that I will start using is S1, S2, S3, and S4. These will refer to the spaces you put the items in on the bench. S1/2 are the recoverable items, S3/4 are the ones that will be destroyed.

    Let us begin.

    Improved to Magic:
    Very little changes in this category. Since you can only pass one inherited stat from one of the greens to the resulting blue, and each stat has a 25% chance. Given how inexpensive it is to craft (2.07 gold each) it only makes sense to craft and revert 1x 1/1 green with 3x 0/1 greens until you get a 1/2 blue. The down side is the with the change that destroys the items in S3/4, you will need to farm more green items to fit the bill. Math says that it will likely take you 4 tries on average to craft a 1/2 Magic item which means on average you will need to farm 1x 1/1 and 9x 0/1 Improved items. Some times you will get lucky and get it on your first try. Other times it will take 10, but on average it will be about 4. Each craft/revert pair costs 2g59s each. Using that, and the fact that you'll accept the last craft without needing to revert, it comes out to 9g84s20c as opposed to 15g93s20c in Crafting 2.0.2, While the price drop is nice, it means that you have to farm over twice as many junk items to achieve the desired result. While this isn't significant at this stage due to the rarity of items with good lines vs items with crappy lines, it is mostly due to the fact that you are looking at a 25% chance of getting what you want/need.

    From here, you could do this one of two ways.
    Method 1: Use good items in only Spaces 1 and 2 and junk/one good stat line exos/legs at higher crafting. Less good stat lines need to be farmed, but you will spend an insane amount of gold and farmed junk items to fill in the gaps.
    Method 2: Use good items in as many spaces as possible (in magic-->exo and above). You will do less crafting, but would require tons green/blue items with a gold stat line.

    ----------------------------Method 1----------------------------

    Lets look at method 1, since that is what the P2Ps, excuse me, P2Ws will do (and others will be forced to do due to the low drop rate of usable ingredients).
    At it's most basic form, because S3/4's items will be destroyed, they put nothing useful in S3/4 and only use good items in S1/2. Sure, similarly to what I described in Crafting 2.0.2, you could use 1/3 or 1/4 items to augment the probabilities for crafting 2x 2/3 exos with 2x 1/3 exos, or crafting 2x 3/4 legs with 2x 1/4 legendaries, but beyond that, they will just throw gold at the problem until they get what they want. Lets find out how much gold and how many items.

    Magic to Extraordinary:
    From here, I'm assuming that you've been following this process and have read my previous thread, so I'll move a little faster.
    So you can get 1/2 blues by luck as a drop or by crafting green items. Lets assume that a gold line is equally likely on a blue item as it is on a green item, which means that blue items with 1/2 ought to drop two times more often than a 1/1 green due to having two chances to roll a good line as opposed to one. For that reason, I'll use a reduced estimated cost for how much one 1/2 item "costs." In this case, I'm estimating that 1 in every 3 is crafted and the other two are farmed. This is just to give us a starting point for costs and isn't perfect. In this model, I'll use 3g28s. I'm also using "fractional items" to try and keep as best of track as I can of total items being used as I move through the tiers. I'll round off both in future results if needed if there is good reason.

    To get a 2/3 Exo Out:
    Type of Item2x 1/2, 2x 0/2 Magic
    Average Cost of Craft(27*9.25)+7.4=257g15s
    Total # of 1/1 and 1/2 needed
    Total # of 0/1 and 0/2 needed
    Total gold needed to craft ingredients
    Based on one of three 1/2 Blues being crafted from
    1x 1/1 and 9x 0/1 and the other two being farmed
    Total 0/2 blues=2*(Average#of crafts to get a 2/3)
    and an average cost of 3.28g each 1/2 being used/salvaged
    0.6667x 1/1, 1.3333x 1/2
    6x 0/1, 56x 0/2
    (6 Gold 56 Silver)
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Total Cost (based on above assumptions)263 Gold 71 Silver
    If you refer back to the previous estimate in my other thread, the cost to make a 2/3 exo was about 196 when crafting 3x 1/2 and 1x 0/1. The only reason this price isn't significantly higher is because of the price drop. However, in this example, you need about 1x 1/1, 1x 1/2, 6x 0/1 (which isn't bad, actually about the same as before), but 56x 0/2 due to constantly losing S3/4 items when you fail the craft. And these items NEED to be the same type, or else you aren't doing targeted crafting. In the case of weapons, this could take days! Also, this is 30k melt wasted to craft one 2/3 exo. That is ridiculous, and we are just starting out! This also doesn't account for trying to pick blue items with high number of slots to ensure that you are not paying an insane amount of ander to add slots to your final legendary.

    Extraordinary to Legendary:
    Part 1:
    The goal here should be to use the 2/3 exos crafted in the previous step to craft 3/4 legendaries. This is the main goal since you need as many good stats to go into crafting your legendaries together to make a 4/4 legendary later. Also, like we said earlier, this process is looking to overcome the need to farm an insane amount of high stat green/blues items by using gold (and an insane number of "disposable" items). In this phase of the crafting, we are going to want to put 2/3 exos into S1/2 (obviously), but if we put 0/3 exos into S3/4, we are hurting ourselves because you have a 1.82% chance, which means about 55 attempts. And 55 attempts means an average of 110 exos (of the right type) to get 3/4 legendary. Instead, you'd be better off using 1/3 exos in S3/4 because it raises your chances to 9.09%, or roughly 11 tries. The down side is that it means you'd need an average of 22 1/3 exos with the right stat! Again, this is insane! These items are rare and farming 22 would take 6-12 months. I have only farmed about 4 in the past 3 months, if that puts it in perspective.

    So, because of how unreasonable both of these are, lets see what both of these look like.

    To get a 3/4 Leg Out with 1/3s in S3/4:
    Type of Item2x 2/3, 2x 1/3 Exos
    Average Cost of Craft(10*74)+59.2=799g20s
    Total # of 1/1 and 1/2 needed
    Total # of 0/1 and 0/2 needed
    Total # of 1/3 needed
    Total gold needed to craft ingredients
    Based numbers from the previous phase and
    Total 1/3 Exos=2*(Average#of crafts to get a 2/3)
    and an average cost of 263.71g each 2/3 being used/salvaged
    1.3333x 1/1, 2.6667x 1/2
    12x 0/1, 112x 0/2
    22x 1/3
    (527 Gold 42 Silver)
    .
    .
    .
    Total Cost (based on above assumptions)1326 Gold 62 Silver
    Well, compared to Crafting 2.0.2, this is significantly less expensive (vs 2474), but it is only because we assume that we can find 22x 1/3 exos. As I said before, this is not likely due to the rarity of 1/3 exos, so lets check the situation of 110 junk exos.

    To get a 3/4 Leg Out with 0/3s in S3/4:
    Type of Item2x 2/3, 2x 0/3 Exos
    Average Cost of Craft(54*74)+59.2=4055g20s
    Total # of 1/1 and 1/2 needed
    Total # of 0/1 and 0/2 needed
    Total # of 1/3 needed
    Total gold needed to craft ingredients
    Based numbers from the previous phase and
    Total 1/3 Exos=2*(Average#of crafts to get a 2/3)
    and an average cost of 263.71g each 2/3 being used/salvaged
    1.3333x 1/1, 2.6667x 1/2
    12x 0/1, 112x 0/2
    110x 0/3
    (527 Gold 42 Silver)
    .
    .
    .
    Total Cost (based on above assumptions)4582 Gold 62 Silver
    Nearly 4600 gold for a 3/4. Compared to 2474 in the previous system, this is robbery... and it requires you to find and waste 110 exos. That is 231k glyphs (+ 60k melt from the blues we wasted making the 2x 2/3 exos), and that is on top of the gold... for one 3/4 legendary!

    I hope that you agree that the first example represents an unreasonable amount of time to depend on that as the method. Sure, if you randomly find two exos with 1/3, you might as well put them in. Worst thing that could happen is that you lose them, just like your 0/3s. It is unlikely to greatly effect the cost much unless you get lucky, but you could make an argument for reducing the 4600 number down by about 1/11th (the statistical frequency at which you will get lucky if you put in 1 pair per 110 other kinds of items), but it is dependent on how often you get 1/3s with stats you care about.

    So, in summery, before we move on to the next phase, lets review what you need to make a 3/4 legendary...
    You need:
    1x 1/1
    3x 1/2
    12x 0/1
    112x 0/2
    110x 0/3 OR 22 1/3
    ~4600 gold OR ~1300 gold

    Legendary to Legendary:
    This will cover crafting a 4/4 legendary out of 3/4 legendaries. Again, you need 2x 3/4 in S1/2. With just a 3/4 in S1 and S2, and 0/4s in S3/4, the probability of getting a 4/4 is 0.82% or roughly 1 in 122. That means that you would need 244x 0/1 legendaries... of the right type of item! Sure, if you were insanely lucky, you could use 2x 1/4s and improve your chances; 3.85%, or 1:26... but if you thought it was unreasonable to farm 22 1/3 exos to improve your chances in the exo-->legendary crafts, what do you think about trying to find 52 1/4 legendaries? Still, that being said, lets check both:

    To get a 4/4 Leg Out with 0/4s in S3/4:
    Type of Item2x 3/4, 2x 0/4 Legs
    Average Cost of Craft(121*136.75)+111=16657g75s
    Total # of 1/1 and 1/2 needed
    Total # of 0/1 and 0/2 needed
    Total # of 0/3 OR 1/3 needed
    Total # of 0/4 needed
    Total gold needed to craft ingredients
    Based numbers from the previous phase and
    Total 1/3 Exos=2*(Average#of crafts to get a 2/3)
    and an average cost of 1326.62g and 4582.62g
    for each 3/4 being used/salvaged
    2.6667x 1/1, 5.33333x 1/2
    24x 0/1, 224x 0/2
    44x 1/3 OR 220x 0/3
    244x 0/4
    (2653 Gold 24 Silver)
    OR
    (9165 Gold 24 Silver)
    .
    .
    Total Cost (based on above assumptions)19310 Gold 99 Silver
    25822 Gold 99 Silver
    To get a 4/4 Leg Out with 1/4s in S3/4:
    Type of Item2x 3/4, 2x 1/4 Legs
    Average Cost of Craft(25*136.75)+111=3529g75s
    Total # of 1/1 and 1/2 needed
    Total # of 0/1 and 0/2 needed
    Total # of 0/3 OR 1/3 needed
    Total # of 1/4 needed
    Total gold needed to craft ingredients
    Based numbers from the previous phase and
    Total 1/3 Exos=2*(Average#of crafts to get a 2/3)
    and an average cost of 1326.62g and 4582.62g
    for each 3/4 being used/salvaged
    2.6667x 1/1, 5.33333x 1/2
    24x 0/1, 224x 0/2
    44x 1/3 OR 220x 0/3
    52x 1/4
    (2653 Gold 24 Silver)
    OR
    (9165 Gold 24 Silver)
    .
    .
    Total Cost (based on above assumptions)6182 Gold 99 Silver
    12694 Gold 99 Silver
    So, BEST CASE, if you can get lucky enough to find 44x 1/3 and 52x 1/4, you could pay as "little" as 6200 gold. Sure, that is better than my estimate for crafting 2.0.2, but that is dependent on an unreasonable amount of luck. More likely, using gold and heavy farming for "junk" items, one of these uber legendaries could be made for an average of nearly 26K! To all of you cry babies who whined about it being too expensive, is that better? Instead of being creative and logical and finding ways to pair various items together, you are forced into a very rigid structure. Because of the gold cost and the shear volume of items that you need to farm, if you are lucky, you might be able to make one or two of these per year with this method. Is that better for all of you who screamed OP? Of course, the gold will be no problem for the heavy payers... They'll just gamble andermant and not gold... or maybe they will decide the the more efficient conversion of their cash is to just use andermant. With a conversion of 1 Gold = 8 Andermant, they could do the 26k gold with as little as 208k andermant. Which do you think is easier? Farming 26k gold as a F2P, or pulling out their card and buying 208k ander for a little more than $200 (US) (or significantly less in other parts of the world)? Then it simply becomes a question of how long it takes for them to farm the junk items. If they are highly dedicated, that might take 1-2 months per item, and P2Ws are already strong enough that they will be able to farm 99% of their time in Fatal Bosses to get the best chance at Legendaries and Extraordinaries (both as junk, and potentially 1/3s and 1/4s).

    ----------------------------Method 2----------------------------
    OK, so we covered Method 1 and how it clearly caters to the P2W. Now it is time to take a look at Method 2 and see if it is as bad as Method 1. Just a refresher, Method 2 is focused on crafting the maximum amount of good items at each step of the process after creating blues from greens by the method covered at the beginning before I launched into the discussion of Method 1. The good news is that, because we are loading up every craft at every phase, I don't have to have multiple tables per phase due to having the choice of "junk" items. Here we go.

    Magic to Extraordinary:
    Using the same assumptions as before, we will assume that an individual blue item costs 3g28s. Also, we are continuing to assume that 1 in every three blue items was crafted. All this flows from the first section of Method 1, so go reread if you need a refresher. I'm also still using "fractional items" to track the total items being used. This is significantly more important in this method than the other one due to the fact that we will be dealing with hundreds of these blue and green items in this method.

    To get a 2/3 Exo Out:
    Type of Item4x 1/2 Magic
    Average Cost of Craft(4*9.25)+7.4=44g40s
    Total # of Input 1/2s
    Composed of # of Farmed 1/1 and Farmed 1/2 needed
    Total # of Farmed 0/1
    Total gold needed to craft ingredients
    Based on one of three 1/2 Blues being crafted from
    1x 1/1 and 9x 0/1 and the other two being farmed
    Total 1/2 blues=2+2*(Average#of crafts to get a 2/3)
    and an average cost of 3.28g each 1/2 being salvaged/consumed
    12
    4x 1/1, 8x 1/2
    36x 0/1
    (39 Gold 36 Silver)
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Total Cost (based on above assumptions)83 Gold 76 Silver

    While the price is nice, roughly 70% cheaper than crafting a 2/3 exo from one (0.6667) green and 1 blue (1.3333), it costs you roughly 6 times that many items with nice, USABLE, stat lines. I don't know about you, but I usually cant find that many items with the stats I want in a month, let alone a time frame that is actually useful for crafting these within a reasonable time. This should be the writing on the wall, because at each higher level of enchantment, we will likely be multiplying our needs by a factor of 8-12 each time. Just wait and see.

    The ONLY thing beneficial about this Method 2 is that, because the new process allows you to select which items you'll get back, you can always pick the ones with the highest stats to use repeatedly. For example, if you find an armor line that is 92% of the max armor you can get on a single line, but later you get one that is 96% of the max, you put the item with the 96% in S1/2 to give it the maximum opportunity to pass it's line on. Also, this applies to all levels of crafting. In Method 1, you pretty much pick your prime stats in the beginning, and the only chance you have to interject new, and possibly better, stats is through the use of 1/3s or 1/4s.

    Extraordinary to Legendary:
    The goal here should be to use the 2/3 exos crafted in the previous step to craft 3/4 legendaries. The good news is that when you put 8x 2/3s on the bench, your odds of getting 1 3/4 is really good... 25.45%, or 1:4. The bad news is that each Exo cost you a huge amount of greens and blues.

    To get a 3/4 Leg:
    Type of Item4x 2/3 Exos
    Average Cost of Craft(3*74)+59.2=355g20s
    Total # of Input 2/3s
    Composed of # of Farmed 1/1 and Farmed 1/2 needed
    Total # of Farmed 0/1
    Total gold needed to craft ingredients
    Based on each 2/3 exo being crafted from
    4x 1/1s, 8x 1/2s and 36x 0/1
    Total 2/3 exos=2+2*(Average#of crafts to get a 3/4)
    and an average cost of 83.76g each 2/3 being salvaged/consumed
    10
    40x 1/1, 80x 1/2
    360x 0/1
    (837 Gold 60 Silver)
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Total Cost (based on above assumptions)1192 Gold 80 Silver
    Again, compared to Crafting 2.0.2, this is significantly less expensive (vs 2474), but it is only because we assume INSANE luck... so far, just to craft a 3/4 legendary, we need to find 40x 1/1s and 80x 1/2. When it comes to 2H weapons, I have a grand total of 3x 1/1s and 4x 1/2s and that is from 3-4 months of saving... I don't know about you, but this is not looking promising. While the gold values are very reasonable, the amount of farming to get this is astronomical! Just goes to show why P2W will jump for joy with Method 1 where as Method 2 is probably not a good idea for anyone. Still, I have to finish what I've started.

    Legendary to Legendary:
    This will cover crafting a 4/4 legendary out of 3/4 legendaries. Here it is, the final stage. The Good news? Well, like the 2/3-->3/4, it is about a 1:4 chance, so you don't have to do this step very many times. The bad? Each legendary that gets destroyed in this process cost you 1192.8 Gold to make and 120 blue/green items with green stats, and 360 junk green items.

    To get a 4/4 Leg:
    Type of Item4x 3/4 Legs
    Average Cost of Craft(3*136.75)+111=521g55s
    Total # of Input 3/4s
    Composed of # of Farmed 1/1 and Farmed 1/2 needed
    Total # of Farmed 0/1
    Total gold needed to craft ingredients
    Based on each 3/4 Leg being crafted from
    40x 1/1s, 80x 1/2s and 360x 0/1
    Total 3/4 exos=2+2*(Average#of crafts to get a 4/4)
    and an average cost of 1192.8g each 3/4 being salvaged/consumed.
    10
    400x 1/1, 800x 1/2
    3600x 0/1
    (11928 Gold)
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Total Cost (based on above assumptions)12449 Gold 25 Silver

    So, while the price is about 50% of what Method 1's price is, it requires an amount of Green/Blue items that staggers the imagination. As I said before, in the past 3-4 months, I've farmed a total of 7 green/blue weapons with golden stats. At that rate, I may be able to make a 4/4 legendary weapon in 43 years... give or take a couple of months. Yes, BigPoint did a great job making sure that people don't get OP from this method.


    My final point that I want to make is a comparison chart for Crafting 2.0.2 and the two methods I detailed above for crafting 2.0.3.

    Metric2.0.2 (My Method)2.0.3 (Method 1)2.0.3 (Method 2)
    Total Items6x 1/1s
    12x 1/2s
    18x 0/1s
    6x 0/2s
    6x 1/3s
    1x 1/4
    ~3x 1/1
    ~5x 1/2
    24x 0/1
    224x 0/2
    220x 0/3 OR 44x 1/3
    244x 0/4 OR 52x 1/4
    400x 1/1
    800x 1/2
    3600x 0/1
    Total Gold94326182-2582212449
    Estimated time
    (Per item)
    47 days at 200 g/day
    (If Limited by Gold)
    63 days at
    2x 1/1 or 1/2 per week
    (If Limited by Items)
    .
    30-129 days at 200 g/day
    (If Limited by Gold)
    61-121 days at
    4x 0/4 a day or 3x 1/4 a week
    (If Limited by Items
    but Farming Fatal Bosses)
    62 days at 200 g/day
    (If Limited by Gold)
    11.5 years at
    2x 1/1 or 1/2 per week
    (If Limited by Items)
    .
    NotesYou already know my
    thoughts on this
    system. It wasn't
    broken, yet someone
    insisted on "fixing" it.
    P2W will not be limited
    by gold.
    Ander will be cheaper.
    See above.

    Worth noting is that the
    short time for gold goes
    with the long time with
    items and vice/versa.
    This means that P2W can
    use short farm times with
    andermant to overcome
    the gold farming, whereas
    F2P will need to farm the
    gold.

    Due to the high junk item
    requirement (magic,
    exo, and leg), the crafting
    process would have to be
    approached sequentially
    due to bag space. Only one
    type of item could be
    worked on at a time and
    the sequential nature may
    force one to farm in that
    order, drawing out the
    time by as much as 100%.
    The item farming
    requirements of this
    method make it
    impractical for any
    use despite it's
    low-ish gold cost.

    Recommendations to fix this:

    Starting with the obvious, Go back to the last iteration of Crafting 2.0. You know, the one we liked!

    Make crafting the same kind of items free. Then it truly does become about the farming. The items become the currency and it is only a matter of how fast you can farm and not how much ander you can afford.

    Give thee of four back. The odds improve drastically if you use 3 good items as opposed to 2. The system as is encourages you to not do more than 2 good items due to the loss you would experience most of the time.

    At a minimum, don't charge for the revert function. You already charged us to craft, and you will be destroying two items... at the very least, don't kick us while we are down.

    If I see any good points in follow on posts, I'll add them.

    Coming soon, The opposite of this... farm a bunch of Green/Blue with good stats so you don't have to craft as many times. But will it save you gold, and how many items would you need to farm... Coming right after I get the taste of vomit out of my mouth.

    OK, I am calm... A couple episodes of Numb3rs and I'm inspired to tackle this again and finish it up... Give me a couple hours.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2016
    Zed, VMmage, Gevilson and 10 others like this.
  2. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Vomit is a much nicer word than I would choose, but thank you for putting this together. I doubt that anyone at DSO will bother to check the math or even care just how much they are punishing us with this.
     
  3. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Now ... that is just the theory part.
    What would be a theory ... if you can't prove it in action.
    That is where I take part.
    Now ... looking at all those numbers makes me wonder ... is all this true? My testing says ... YES.
    Before give you some info ... I said earlier "i won't be giving any feedback" ... and I won't but I must prove Baragain's math ... beside that I have busted their new Crap 2.0 system even faster that the previous very good Craft 2.0 ... and i will do whatever it takes just to make this Crap 2.0 die. If this system stays i will make guide for all players (P2P and F2P) ... what to do and what not to. Because like i said many times in the past I don't believe in random and I know there is no random.
    For a start let me tell you something ... from my testing and observation I could see that 90% of the enchantments are being selected from the 3rd and 4th item ... Are you surprised? Not me. I can prove this in few ways ... one is with documentation of all rolls and reverts during the process of crafting ... the other way is through resources spent making a single item where first two items are perfect items and the 3rd and the 4th item are junk items. This especially applies to leg->leg crafting.

    So let us see if the result is there.
    Yes it is ... I made these items already long time ago (like before came here from TS today)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Yes ... i know ... more deadlier than the last time.
    Don't ask me for the final result of those 2 ... i won't show you ... you would be too afraid.
    And all this took me insane amount of resources ... if I tell you what amount you would get a headache. Remember all these resources for just one item.
    As we can see ... Baragain is right.
    The devs made these changes to support spending not farming ... because with these changes and the current system the way it is ... it is making so far the biggest gap between ordinary players (P2P and F2P) and ultimate P2W.

    Now ... devs .. i know you are reading this ... I promised you i will bust your system
    Make it fair for all or revert it to craft 1. as far as I am concerned you can even bring back CoTs ... i don't care.

    At last:
    We want to see that feedback. Let us see it.
    The public have to know the truth!
     
    furqanxx likes this.
  4. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Update complete.

    Most interesting piece is at the bottom. It compares the item, cost, time requirements my method for Crafting 2.0.2 to my thoughts on Methods 1 and 2 in Crafting 2.0.3.

    Put it this way, unlike Crafting 2.0.2, I'm not putting in a "This is what I'm going to do to craft items" section because if this goes to live servers as is (or even without significant change), then this could be the final straw that gets me to seek out a new game. I'd start with a short 1-2 month break, and if they didn't remove their collective heads from their collective hindquarters, it would likely become semi permanent. They had something beautiful planned, but then they had to shoot themselves in the foot.

    BigPoint is their own worst enemy.
     
    Belei and Minota like this.
  5. UndergroundKiller

    UndergroundKiller Forum Expert

    Hi @_Baragain_ , first thanks for have made 3 guides...

    Second, i have a question: that's my bow (long bow) [​IMG]
    Stats: 74 dmg, 46,90% weapon dmg and 35,97% weapond dmg



    Then, i have another one with 1 yellow line (nearly 48% weapon dmg), and 2 low lines (nearly 21%weapon dmg and around 12%speed)


    When, as @trakilaki called it, crap 2.0 will come to normal servers, what should i do? Make a first attemp with those 2 bows + 2 junk items or should i look for another long bow with 2 yellow lines too? Or, better, do as you said in the guide (start from green)?

    Thanks for attention :D
     
  6. Armando

    Armando Forum Connoisseur

    Hey @_Baragain_ ,
    I've read it all (though not checked each and every single of your calculations ;) ), thanks again for the analysis!
    I am sorry that you are so disappointed now, I am reading between your lines that you are also blaming me or at least "my kind".

    In general, your analysis also seems to support my point: farming will become much more important with the recent change. I still appreciate that.
    Of course it's a known fact that also farming is easier for players who are already OP, but that was clear from the beginning.

    My personal goal was never to have legendary items with 4/4 golden stat lines, but to be able to use those green and blue items with good stats that I DO find, in a targeted crafting process.
    If this brings me to legendary items with let's say 3 good (let's say >70% of the max value) stat lines of the same type, it will already be a very significant improvement for my chars (while probably not for many P2W chars).
    There is a lot of room for interpretation in what different players categorize as "useful".
    I already repeatedly said that I don't mind P2Ws going from very good to UBER stats, I only want it to require some time and a significant amount of money (disproportionally more if you pay than if you farm) for them as well ;-).

    What did get me thinking is that in your last table, the time you are giving for the item farming restriction (61 days) is even less than the time given for your "old" approch (63 days).
    But I think if we kind of "remove" the gold restriction, then we would also have to consider P2Ws using unlimited amounts of gold/andermant for "destilling" their 1/4 fatal boss drops in crafting 2.0.2, thus maybe reducing the time needed to some 5 weeks/35 days?

    I totally understand your disappointment, but I still think the new focus on farming is actually better. However, this is a personal p.o.v. and I don't want to argue with you here - which is why I will rather keep my voice down these days, I don't want to heat up the discussion even further.

    Be positive, and as Mikey says, luck be with ye!

    Ok, that one is .... interesting.
    I will start recording stats for this.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2016
    Belei likes this.
  7. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Of course there will be a small percentage that will be happy with crappy 2.0 over the player friendly version.

    There were some who were happy when everyone got nerfed.

    With each of the last few so called "improvements" we lost good players needlessly and it looks like that trend will continue.
     
  8. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    You were just the messenger from the German forums, sharing the stupid things that some people were saying. I blame the developers more than anyone because they were the ones who had a knee jerk reaction based on a couple of misinformed, yet highly vocal, noobs.

    Personally, I am shocked that anyone was foolish enough to actually request a global nerf.

    If you read in the notes section, that is assuming the player is doing almost nothing but farming fatal bosses, which is easy enough for an already OP player, but this corresponds to the high gold/andermant number. P2Ws will just farm what they need and then use andrermant instead of gold in the crafting process. For these reasons, I believe that the andermant prices need to be about 10 times more expensive (maybe more) than it is now if BP truly wants to get people farming instead of just throwing money at the problem. Even still, that may just convince them to gamble the ander with the intent of trying to get gold.

    My real point with that final table isn't that crafting 4/4 legendaries is impossible with 2.0.3, but rather that it widens the gap between F2P and P2W instead of closing it. In 2.0.2, as long as the andermant price is set higher, everything is much more balanced. There had been a suggestion of a crafting currency and I contributed to that idea a little. I can't find the post, but the thought goes like this; you get crafting coins. This would be the only currency accepted at the crafting bench. Costs could be 1 for green-->blue, 2 for blue-->exo, 4 for exo-->leg, and 8 for leg-->leg. Because these would need to be farmed, no one would start crafting 2.0 with any sort of advantage and it would take time to farm this currency. Furthermore, the drop rate and price could be the same at all levels, meaning that coins farmed while leveling up wouldn't lose their value. Also, it could help discourage twinks from spending even more money to become OP in LL PVP with gold from jeststs/andermant.

    Another thing that I forgot to include in the table was the glyphs that the items are worth. In addition to the gold and time, you are also burning through over 2.25 million glyphs just to make the item due to the glyphs that you lose on bad crafts. Again, this will be more significant to F2Ps than P2Ws who likely already have 100M or more.


    My conclusion is that this system is yet another example of the developers making a system that favors the heavy payers. They lie through their teeth that it is about balance, but the truth remains that this would make them more money, and we all know how much BigPoint likes money.
     
    Minota and Armando like this.
  9. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    If no one had been given ander, gold and legendary items during the player friendly version, how many uber items could have been created in the few days it was available?

    It is interesting that with crappy 2.0 currently on the test server, no one was given all these resources to test it like they were with player friendly version.

    Since crappy 2.0 is much closer to the original idea proposed, were the tests designed to push everyone into believing that system is better?

    Baragain compared the two versions apples to apples, DSO chose not to, so that begs the question why not.

    All those players who are not able to farm fatal for those beginning items are going to have a tough time.

    Edit:

    For fun and giggles, I decided to pop over and read through the German crafting 2.0 thread.

    For the most part, the first twelve pages were mostly chit-chat, but on page 13, a glaring example of the doom to come was posted.

    Any guesses on what it was?

    Yep, that massive OP weapon our very own Trak posted here.

    At the point, the conversation jumped the rails and went crazy taking almost everyone with it.

    That post stated he did this with only 120 gold. That was later corrected, but the sky is falling talk took over.

    The last four pages brought us to where we are today. It is an interesting read over there. Some good points were brought up and discussed at length.

    One really cool thing I noticed, their mods are much more engaged in the topics than what we have here.

    I did not see a lot of talk about how great crappy 2.0 is, so it will be interesting to see if DSO will do any further tweaking or if we are just going to get this latest version jammed down our throats.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2016
    Armando likes this.
  10. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    That is great news to hear.

    I know being a mod isn't the easiest thing on a forum, especially when some of us are passionate :rolleyes: but I think most of us would love to see you guys talk with us in an "unofficial" way every so often if that is permitted.

    Most of the time we don't know what you guys think about these debated topics.

    Thank you for keeping us in check.
     
  11. Oh trust me, we talk in an unofficial way... they are called our social accounts. :D
     
    Melethainiel, MegaNuker and Aerion like this.
  12. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Well, that was funny. I too just went over to read the madness. With the exception of Armando, everyone's feedback was based off of "feel" just like I expected. Even when Armando linked them to my post about the best methods for 2.0.2 and it's associated costs, they were still fixated on the "120 gold" number and it took several pages for someone to correct them and say 120k (which isn't quite right either... it was about 40k-50k for just the weapon if I remember right). In short, none of them did extensive testing. None of them did extensive analysis... all they did was see the potential of the system with an erroneous number attached to it and they all thought that it was the end of the world. And the mods were just as bad! You could tell they had no clue what they were talking about and were taking this "end of the world" feedback and reporting it like gospel truth. These noobs are having a disastrous effect on this potentially amazing system, and their combined time spent "testing" and commenting on this system is maybe equal to a fraction that Trakilaki and I have spent considering nearly every implication of this system (pre and post nerf).

    Sometimes people get what they deserve... how about if an account has a German tag, they get the stupid 2.0.3 version since they (collectively) seemed to think it was a good idea. Meanwhile, give the rest of us the system done right.
     
    trakilaki, Rhysingstar and MikeyMetro like this.
  13. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Once some people decide that they are right, nothing is going to change that.

    There were people who decided before 2.02 came out that it would make everyone OP, then when they saw one example of one piece of gear, they saw all the proof they needed.

    What it took to get that one piece didn't matter. All they saw was the proof that they were right.

    This is really no different than those who are convinced one class is weaker or stronger than another.

    I have the gut feeling that DSO will choose to keep crappy 2.0 simply because it quiets most of the doom and gloom predictions in those who scream the loudest.

    It is still slightly better than what we have now.

    We can still (as far as I know) make sure we have the desired gem slots. That is an improvement.

    Maybe in another couple of years (if the game is still around) they will see that the majority of players still do not use crafting and make another attempt at revamping it.
     
  14. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    I hardly doubt this Crap 2.0 version will see day light.
    It is just another probe to test the player's "pulse" ... and it is just another "proposal" that no one likes ... therefore it is not passing.
    We have a situation "German mislead Community vs. Rest of the Communities".
    We have another "Christianity" and the "Roman Empire" example. (not preaching religion just a historical fact)
    In 285 AD The Great Roman Empire is split into Western (Rome) and Eastern (Byzantine) roman empires ... in sequence to that ... in 1054 AD Christianity divided to Catholic (Rome) and Orthodox (Byzantine).
    It looks like the same will happen in this game. The devs lead by their greedy marketing department are intentionally using the German Community as a scapegoat ... and this will not come to "happy end".
    Zee Germans have not a single evidence based on testing and thorough analysis ... they don't even have their own examples to show but using someone else's examples backed by false assumptions and "infiltrated" dev's "false flag" statements.
    That will lead to community partition and general hatred. And when they find out that they were deceived by infiltrated "players" and screaming 2 year old kids ... it will be too late.
    And that is not good ... because:
    1. The game will die without players
    2. I will get pissed off ... and when I'm pissed off i kick buts
    If they want to shoot themselves in the leg ... so be it ... but the rest of us will not let this malicious tissue spreading the infection further.
    Therefore we will have to amputee that tissue and have two separate crafting systems.

    Man you better stop your indoctrination ... because you can't sell rice to Chinese.
     
    BLASTUP likes this.
  15. .journey518.

    .journey518. Forum Greenhorn

    because you guys are all EDIT BP need your feedback on that freakin 2.0 about crafting . because the item are too powerful? . that's CRAP .now they will removed 2 items instead of 4 from reverting.. how we farmed hard and put many of our time to get that items?.now
     
    Last edited by moderator: May 22, 2016
  16. BLASTUP

    BLASTUP Active Author

    I think this crap 2.0 is coming....and its very disappointing
    Along with it i have a suggestion that i think is better if u want 2 items back the price of reverting should be 27 gold for legendary items and if u want 3 items back the price should be 60-70 gold and if u want all items back the price should be over 140 gold ......Just a suggestion but i really think the old crafting 2.0 is far better
     
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  17. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Nothing is coming ... nothing is final until the end.
    Best solution if the want to bargain with us ... is the initial Crap 2.0 with higher prices.
    More income for BP (and i don't care for their income) and more time to farm for ordinary players.
    It will take years to make perfect items.
    The idea of Crap 2.0 is clear ... it is made to make sure no one gets perfect items ... yet again to make huge profit
     
  18. Mal3ficent

    Mal3ficent Board Administrator Team Drakensang Online

    @.journey518.
    Please read our forum rules before posting here.
    Cheers.
     
  19. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    :D :D
    You are in the wrong forum ...
     
  20. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I actually like this for two reasons.
    1. It allows you to pick your price based on what you put in. If you have two good items, you'd pay the two safe item price. If you have three good items, you pay the three safe item price. The only problem is that unless the 4 safe item price was significantly higher, this system would be even cheaper that Crafting 2.0.2 and would make everyone's whining about "easy OP" a little more valid.
    2. It balances the need for both gold and items. At any given point, you get do decide which is more important to you. You can overcome bad luck finding items with gold (and farming gold is pretty much even across P2P and F2P), or you can take advantage of a lucky drop to decrease your gold costs.

    As long as the prices are picked well for this, this system has the most potential to be fair.

    That being said, the andermant prices still need to go up significantly. The 1g=8a conversion is way too low and encourages paying instead of farming.
     
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