Feedback Crafting 2.0 – Official Statement & Feedback needed

Discussion in 'Discussions on Current Topics' started by Allogeneous, Mar 22, 2016.

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  1. taketh

    taketh Regular

    I don't think my maths is wrong. I gave your other post a like because it had the line "While I encourage you all to read the entire lengthy post, I know that many of you will not because of the length and complexity.". I calculated it takes 20 blue items (i said green/blue and should have said blue but transferring from green to blue was insignificant). Using the spreadsheet from @Armando, the probability is 21.43. 1/0.2143 is 4.666, rounded up to 5 attempts. 5*4 ingredients=20.
  2. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    The important part to read is the table at the end:

    Your math isn't wrong so much as you did no analysis beyond a very basic calculation. Your assumption of 5120 items is related to the third column above, but you were a little off compared to the way I did my calculations which took the revert function into account thoroughly. If you are smart, you will read about "Method 1". It is more expensive when it comes to gold, but the item costs are much more reasonable.
    Armando and taketh like this.
  3. taketh

    taketh Regular

    I hope you are happy. I am sitting here reading your essay, because if i dont, i will be not smart :p. Ahh forget it, i will be smart later or one day.
    Armando and _Baragain_ like this.
  4. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    LOL. It is either read the essay or farm/waste thousands and thousands of items. :p
  5. Armando

    Armando Forum Connoisseur

    You are right, I was actually one of those asking for a moderate nerf of the revert function, because I still think the old crafting 2.0.2 would have made it too easy to use insane amounts of gold/andermant to craft Uber-Items from legendary "1-liners".
    I was wary of that not because of potential "almighty" opponents in PvP (there are always some undefeatable ones), but because I think the overall effect on the game would be bad if too many people would be lured into spending too much money. They would get bored quickly, and others would get frustrated.
    So I am kinda happy with the latest change, even if it means that my own progress is slowed down significantly as well.

    I have level 50 chars of all four classes. My mage , DK and dwarf on Heredur are all marshals and done with all parallel worlds. They can do any boss in fatal mode with an average group (and pink or red essences), but I can't (let alone solo) farm those in series.
    I have NO PW boss set item in tier 3, so far, not with any of them.
    For most of my characters' items, a new legendary with 2-3 golden lines would be an improvement. A good level 50 weapon with 2/2 or 3/1 enchantments with good values would be a huge leap forward.
    Speed gloves above 15-18% would be an improvement. Speed boots above 18% would be an improvement.... and so on.
    In general, I would say my chars are pretty much average. Many people here in the forums would have better developed chars, but then again by far not all players do write in the forums...

    I do not expect to become OP soon, no. But I do expect some significant improvements to be reached faster than in the past 2.5 years.
    I have collected some 400-600 cubes per char and 3.6 million fame points to spend; I didn't use any of this after R155/Lvl 50 but kept it all for crafting 2.0; this is what I plan to use as a basis for my crafting attempts. Even knowing that 99% of the items will be crap, I should be getting SOME good lines.

    And I am looking forward to the long-term fun of actually looking closely at ANY dropped item again if it is useful in some way, as compared to the current state where everything but legendaries is just glyphs and gold.
    This is for me the most important outcome of crafting 2.0: not to improve my char quickly, but to make farming interesting again.
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
  6. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Yea, I've been collect for a while too... Every one of those items you see has at least 1 gold line, and most of them are the rare ones (not HP, Armor, Resist).
    Armando likes this.
  7. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    I know him ... I have had a few conversations with him including broken skill system, broken PVP and Craft 2.0.
    He seems to be cool guy ... willing to listen.
    But knowing how much they "fixed" ... I don't think any of that info helped to change devs view on the game.
    Such a shame they have no vision for the game.
    Lot of players quit the game ... and this crafting 2.0 could be the reason having them back again. instead ... because of the dev's wrong visions and deeds not just they won't be back but the other loyal players (loyal to the game not to the devs and their marketing department) are on the verge of exit. I don't even play this game anymore I only log in and collect my dailies ... not to mention I have no desire to continue with the Wiki project neither.
    In fact with Craft 2.0 I was so happy to have something to play for ... again ... and now I ended up in another disappointment ...


    As for all math lovers and practitioners:
    Human math is flawed because it only represents how much limited the human brain is.
    If the human brain was not limited and the math was flawless ... we could have already manipulate the space and time (without back engineering "exotic technologies") .
    There is lot more then just doing math ... there are things that you can't calculate with math.
    Last edited by moderator: May 28, 2016

    BLASTUP Active Author

    When i told him that because of nerfing this feature many players will leave game he simply said that "we cant do anything about it".....this was so much dissapointing for me that they actually dont care about their players, how is this even possible that a dev doesnt care about the players and their happiness??? :confused::confused:
  9. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Of course they can ... they only don't want to.
  10. Morinphen

    Morinphen Forum Overlooker

    You're only realizing the last bit now? I mean, I know it's impossible to listen to and please everyone, but extra efforts could be made, I guess. One can only hope. Thing is how long you are willing to wait.
  11. taketh

    taketh Regular

    @Armando Thanks for your reply. I still don't see how it is useful to anyone. You have played the game for 2.5 years, and havent found boots with speed more than 18%?

    It will take a long long time before i get an improvement from 2.0. Level 60 will come out before then i expect. 2.0 is useless to me, and all the friends i play with. I stand by that it is useless to everyone. Even the weaker players i play with are more likely to find the items they are looking for as a random drop than a crafted item. We only do fatal runs. I was doing q3 fatal for realm frags, glyphs, and ingredients but I dont know anymore.

    I am trying to look at it like gems, i collect +3 armor gems knowing that they are useles, but one day it will become a radiant. I am still annoyed with this. I could have used crafting 2.0 to craft everything, finally get 4 lines of damage on a belt etc. Now its just not worth it for me. Much easier to do teleports and hope for a random drop.

    I could benefit from a health amulet, % damage torso, attack speed gloves, which will take months to get a minor improvement on. I dont see many people doing this though.
  12. bLaind

    bLaind Forum Baron

    The only ones that I'm curious about are these:
    I don't remember seeing such green armors, they look like the lvl 40-45 ones tho.

    I stopped thinking about this crapting and melted some of the little items I've gathered and with some I've tried my luck with the current crafting.
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
  13. Armando

    Armando Forum Connoisseur

    These are probably drops from q6 (probably m2 or Mortis). Now, in the "new" parallel world, they have the same "ghost" skin on lvl 50 as they used to have in the "old" (pre-R158) PW on lvl 40.
    To make this post on-topic ;), some more feedback:
    I am actually disappointed that we still won't be able to "inherit" skins to higher rarity levels with crafting 2.0!
  14. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Armando is correct. Those are the "Death Knight Armor."
    The green one has 9.68% damage and the legendary has 9.99% damage... why couldn't it be the other way around. :(
    Like Armando said, I wish we could actually get the skin to craft. I know that the "transmute" feature is still on the table, but it is so low on the priority list that it would be ages before we see it.
    Armando likes this.
  15. Armando

    Armando Forum Connoisseur

    Well, maybe I'm just very unlucky regarding drops, or I spent too much time in PvP instead of farming. ;-)
    OK, my dwarf, who has grown to become my main char since R155, actually has legendary boots with 19.7% runspeed, from 3 enchantments.
    My DK is still using legendary lvl 39 boots with 16% (from 3) runspeed and lvl 45 gloves with 14.9 (from 3) attack speed.
    My mage has extraordinary lvl 50 gloves and lvl 45 boots, with 15.5 attack speed and 16% runspeed from 3 enchantments each.
    As you can see, something like this,
    which I crafted on the test server from extraordinary items within 2-3 attempts with some luck, would already be quite an improvement for me - at a cost of some 220 gold, that ain't bad.

    Well, at least for me it is extremely unlikely to find items with 3 or even 4 "wanted" enchantment types, and then these usually have rather low values. Crafting 2.0 will give me a lot more influence on those at item generation, even with the amount of randomness still involved.
    I don't see how a useful "random drop" could have a higher probability than crafting something useful from 4 lower-rarity random drops.

    Of course, maybe farming fatal BOSSES is not the best method for collecting inputs for crafting 2.0, as you kinda get more legendaries there than blue and green items. You would probably rather farm minibosses or even normal mobs in fatal mode.

    I already said I think the system will help reduce the gap between weaker and stronger characters, because the weaker have more room for quick improvements with targeted enchantment types, as I do - even if the values are maybe only at 60% of the maximum.
    If you have reached a certain stat level and you can, let's say, solo fatal bosses with blue essences, my personal p.o.v. is that you are, - congratulations! - done with this game and should be moving on to a new challenge or form of entertainment. No computer game should keep you interested and busy forever. Most offline games can be played through in some 40-80 hours; for me, spending 2.5 years here is basically already far too long, but I don't feel I'm "done" yet - though I'm getting closer. Lately, I have been playing way more on my 4th char (the ranger on Grimmag) and 2 twinks than with my 3 main chars.

    So, I perfectly understand if some advanced players say they will be quitting soon, because they don't see any progress on their chars any more. But I think that's only normal and healthy.
    There still are enough newer players to keep the game alive, the veterans (and I count myself among them already) aren't really needed...
  16. taketh

    taketh Regular


    Hey. I have to keep telling myself that they would have nerfed it anyway without your feedback to keep calm, though i am still annoyed about it.

    The player that would use this crafting 2.0, is one with patience (a lot of patience), knowledge about the game, and the resources required to unlock warehouse space etc.

    All games have an end period. With crafting 2.0 the way it is, the majority of players would have left the game before they get the uber gears. I myself wont see any major improvement for a long time. I am collecting 8% lines of attack speed because 9+ are too rare. 24% gloves for me are a 3% improvement? I could get lucky with the fourth line being randomly attack speed.

    There is tolerance level we have when we play the game. The stronger you become, the lower your tolerance level is. If pro players join a noob party, and the kills are slow, they leave the group quick. I dont understand how people can spend 10 mins killing heredur for example, and there are players out there that dont understand how I myself take so long to kill it.

    I cant solo a fatal boss, very few dwarfs can, but why would they when its faster to ignore defense and go full damage, using a tank to do it.

    I bring up this tolerance because there is a minimum amount of damage that is required for the game to be tolerable. Crafting 2.0 the way it was would have made it so the noobs got the gear faster, and can play the game, instead of the way it is now, where they get excluded. Now players like you are asking them to spend months to get the bare minimum gear to actually play the game. Maybe my tolerance level is too low.

    Crafting 2.0 is now for growing knowledgable players, and people with a lot of patience, whereas before it was for everyone, and for every item. I doubt anyone will use it to craft 4 lines of hp rings from green items.

    I dont know what BP was thinking, they could have made a killing letting players re-roll but now... Its anecdotal, but my friends have given up on it.

    Like i said before, there are many dwarfs stronger than i am. I would have liked to have had their damage, but i guess now im as strong as i ever will be considering BP will nerf the dwarf before i get an improvement.
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  17. Javah

    Javah Forum Veteran

    Of course, it's cool to use gold and items that you have received as a gift, and run the risk that they could be wasted/destroyed for nothing.

    You'll tell me after you'll have laboriously and proudly crafted a third and fourth legendary with sufficiently adequate statistics for crafting, and you'll have lost them because the resulting item does not satisfy you. And you will need to start over again for green/blue farming.

    Ah yes. You also have the alternative to try the luck using two powerful items and any two other dropped around, in the hope that the workbench will predilect the first two, while it will promptly do the opposite. Lol, too fun, thanks BP.

    Oh, this is a great truth. And fortunately it is also true vice versa. I just took a ride on a Steam-like site, and made my purchase.
    taketh likes this.
  18. Armando

    Armando Forum Connoisseur

    Most veterans complain that it has become easier and easier to advance to endgame content, and many newer players seem to get good drops a lot faster than old characters.

    What you call a "bare minimum gear" also depends a lot on your p.o.v.
    My lvl 50 ranger is playing with the Tayaz (Andermant) set (I had opened the event reward boxes from Chocilatl only at lvl 50), and it works quite ok so far.
    If you manage to get through the PW on painful mode, the Untouchables set even on tier one is also quite ok as a starter set.
    And it's really easy actually to find legendaries that are better.
    I don't think anyone needs to complain that the game is too hard, all in all.

    Bosses in fatal mode are the ultimate challenge in this game; I actually think it's a pity that most players can already do them at all, in one way or the other. Even "farming" them in series is kind of a sign that you have grown out of this game. What I wrote about soloing is just a way of measuring your progress level, I didn't say this is efficient or makes any sense for farming ;).
    BTW, I lately tried soloing Khalys fatal with my dwarf, and it seemed quite possible, though it took an awful amount of time (with 1h shield build, of course). In theory, I think a good dwarf can tank fatal bosses almost as well as a DK.

    Well, it all comes down to what you perceive as satisfying in the end. And I already said, the main advantage of crafting 2.0 for me is that green and blue items will have a use again, apart from selling them for gold. So I will enjoy the farming!
    For me, gaming is all about having fun in what I'm doing, not about doing it the most efficient way. It can be more rewarding to win a hard battle after 30 minutes than receiving 3 legendary drops (that are only good for melting, because I can't improve my stats with them any more) every 2-5 minutes.

    It's just very different expectations. I just keep telling you my p.o.v. in order to represent a different view here than those maybe 10 people who are dominating the discussion, and who are (understandably) disappointed and dissatisfied at large because it won't be possible to reach 4 golden stat lines on an item so "easily" now.
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  19. taketh

    taketh Regular

    @Armando Being able to farm fatal runs is the game. Everybody does fatal or should be doing them. There is a better chance of getting an upgrade farming fatals. You can get 3 good lines on most items except for weapons which appears to be more rare. The difference betwen a weak player and a strong player is the time it takes to finish the run. I imagine the only reason why people do other modes is because they cant find a tank strong enough. I think i am right about this, why else does it take 300+ runs to get the heredur shield?

    What can i say to the veterans complaining about people growing strong fast... Can't really express myself without cursing. Im annoyed that people think fatal runs should be for the elite only. How else are players meant to improve. It is especially annoying that premium players are too weak for the runs.

    Crafting 2.0 does provide an alternative route, but it gives me no immediate benefit. When i first heard about 2.0, with it being targetted, i thought 'great, i can improve massively, finally get 4 lines of damage on everything'. As a dwarf, there are many items that are useless to me. They then allowed values to be inherited which is even better than i thought it would be, but the nerf has made it useless to me. I can see minor improvements to gloves, torso, and amulet. I am not going to use 2.0 spending all that time for an additional 30 damage per item though.

    EDIT: Also, there is a massive difference between my damage and many others. The goal is to compete with them in pvp. To do that, i need their gear and a ton of glyphs. Some of these players have lvl 55 everything.
  20. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    I completely agree.

    Some players who only do fatal runs have no idea what it is like for those who cannot, nor seem to care.

    Saying that it is so easy to find great greens and blues outside of those maps just proves it.

    I'm sure that this new crap 2.0 would be better if I would just think about myself like most others seem to do.