Development Team Letter - CLASS BALANCING

Discussion in 'Headquarters Archive' started by DSO Production Team, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Okay, I'll make this simple.

    I stopped doing pvp in August 2015 (right before the release of 155). I have not done 1 single match since. None for the dailies, none to help out a friend, none by accident, zero, nada.

    Just give me 1 good reason why I deserve to be nerfed?

    Nerfing isn't limited to those who are supposedly god like. Nerfing isn't limited to just the regular OP players. It hits every last player of that class.

    So, tell me why I who doesn't pvp at all needs to be nerfed. Justify that.
     
    MikeyMetro likes this.
  2. sargon234

    sargon234 Forum Demigod

    First, they need to finally divide with a wall, listen to a certain someone, between pve and pvp
    Then we can talk about nerfing and balancing pvp
     
  3. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Justification is simple) I couldn't care less about PvE, I did not put reasonable thinking into PvE aspect of the conversation. So, I don't know if you deserve to be nerfed or not. What I know is that some classes have unfair advantage in some aspects of the game I would like to be addressed. Playing DK 100% of time now myself, I know regen is crucial in a number of circumstances, specifically tanky role. That doesn't change, however, the fact that BP made DK immortal in PVP giving them that crucial for PvE thingy.

    I do not suggest any specific action. Nerf, boost, whatever. Only thing I suggest is to address the ridiculous imbalance we have now in some thoughtful reasonable manner, not breaking other things.

    If they keep bring more and more questionable items and skills to patch the issue that exists, things will get worse. We are already in a situation it is hard to fix one thing without breaking another.

    Having said all of that, I do not want DK to be nerfed anymore as this is my main char moving forward. My only concern is denial of the issue by some of the speakers. I try to listen and hear everyone. Not sure about others though.

    Cheers.
     
  4. Funny how you change your 'tune' once you become a DK yourself. I do agree though that there is a imbalance within classes when it comes to pvp. I like what Rhysing said about some sort of 'cap' being put in place perhaps. However then again, some players, myself included have put so much time and even money into achieving the best stats possible and continuing them to grow so then again, I hate to see even a DK to be broken down to 'human' so to speak so that another class can beat him/her when they have worked hard as well. Its very difficult to not find sympathy when they are just trying to be the best they can be, as I am, however because of my class I won't stand much chance as things are now so balance is much more efficient and some sort of measures to make pvp more fun and manageable would be great from BP.
     
  5. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Or the damage mitigation idea that I've brought up many times in the past.

    Long story short, the more you have of a given stat, the more heavily it is mitigated. Using a logistic curve that approaches 50% as the damage or HP goes towards the theoretical max would more heavily impact the extreme builds while having a reduced impact on weaker and developing builds. In addition to cleaning up this stupid 1-hit meta that has arisen, it would help balance the power gap between older and newer players.

    By only impacting HP and damage, it has the effect of addressing all of offense and all of defense. "Effective HP" is the measure of over all defense and HP is the root of it. Block, armor, and resistance all just modify the HP. Same with DPS and Damage. Crit, Crit damage, and Speed all multiply the damage you have, so if you mitigate the damage, you mitigate the offensive side.

    If they simply introduced caps, then someone would build a capped out character and then they can't improve anymore. Mitigation allows them to improve as much as they'd like, but at a reduced rate in PvP.

    I don't see how that is related to my comments about what a DK can and can't do in Infernal III, but if you read some of my 4800+ posts, particularly those around the time of that change, you'd see that I spent some time complaining that they hurt newer players when they made those changes. There was no reason to adjust those stats down while not scaling the existing stats to match the new values, but now, I'd just prefer that they raise the max value available now.

    Simple when you consider it from an Effective Health and Damage Per Second perspective. HP and damage, as the basis for the two "summary" stats both need a +xx% boost from Wisdom. Attack speed and Run speed both need theirs because they are time oriented effects when compared to armor/resist/crit/crit damage being totally unrelated to time in any fashion.
     
    Demon likes this.
  6. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    I did not change my tune. I changed my class because of the 'tune' of imbalance. And if you knew what kind of a character I gave up you wouldn't say it's funny because it's not funny at all.

    I did not change my tune, I just gave up because this conversation is lasting too long without any sign of improvement. And if you have noticed, I come here from time to time to remind the issue persists, despite switching to DK in Jan.

    And I will try to be reasonable and accept reasonable comments no matter what class do I play, unlike some others who are being self-centric.
     
  7. Paavelsons

    Paavelsons Regular

    well. i do lot of ports. on in passive state. need wisdom rework. where to run when all done.. end game. oh wait

    pvp is unbalanced just because some players have such gears.
    im not complaining about your posts. just going on topic whats going on here currently. class ballancing but you talk only about dks because you are one. every person talks about own character types not whole.
    but yes gear as such mentioned above should have available for everyone

    ps: dragan set + any normal person crafts runspeed on boots not putting it on wisdom talent.
     
  8. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    A few years ago when players were maxed out at 3K dmg there weren't daily complaints about pvp imbalance. When it jumped to 7K the nerf talk began in earnest. Then it jumped again and we have players over 25K in dmg.

    DSO went out of their way to create this problem, and on top of that introduced certain gear that made it even worse.

    Everyone puts time and effort into their character, whether they play pvp or not. Some put money into their character whether they play pvp or not.

    100% of the nerf talk is targeted towards the very small % of god like characters, yet very rarely do I hear a single person talk about the large % of the players who get caught up in nerf who are just trying to have fun, only to have their time and effort nerfed unfairly.

    I've asked before how many of these so called god like 1h DK's are in the game. A handful per server? A couple dozen per server?

    Not every DK is god like. Not every DK plays pvp.

    Before you ask to knee cap every single DK in the game and force many to stop playing, ask yourself if you are being fair to them.

    Every time one of these threads pop up, I ask people to offer solutions that don't nerf or build up the other classes, yet it must simply be too easy to constantly complain because the non nerf solutions offered are very few and far between.
     
    wolfie54 likes this.
  9. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Agreed. With many points. But I have mentioned many times I talk about end game PVP and potential characters with hypothetical stats. I also said, that it is quite possible that on the lower end balance is shifted in the opposite direction. I don't know, but quite possible. My concern was, and I mentioned it clearly many times, the concept of healing on top of max HP given extreme builds with the defense constantly growing. It was too much at inf2 times, now it's impossible. Again, I will not deny, or comment, if someone says there is an opposite issue on the lower end. I don't know.

    As a response to me, someone claimed that 2h DK could not stand 2h mage. I didn't agree, but also didn't deny. I don't know. So I asked that guy to put some thoughts into it, if he sees this an issue, and start his own topic on the subject of 2h DK being smashed, or how hard it is to develop DK, or whatever.

    My claim, mathematically proven for end game builds was only about as you say 'dozens' of chars on the server. And, potentially, many more who are getting there.

    I agree with you that no quick changes should be done without thinking what it means for:
    1. PvP, all modes from 1v1 to 6v6.
    2. Pve, maps and bosses
    3. Team play
    4. Solo play
    5. Beginner char
    6. End game char
    And so on.

    I disagree with the Cap. It kills the very core of hack/slash rpg.

    The balance is a curve. This curve should be tuned. If you imagine a chart, with X axis representing character development, and Y it's ELO and PVE capability, there might be issues all across, and sometime opposite. Newbie tank will be probably smashed by beginner mage, as a newbie tank it will be harder to kill Heredur solo comparing to a mage. But as soon as both develops, it will shift towards DK, and reach ridiculous imbalance on the right with DK being able to run through and smash things standing, immortal in PVP, and mages being dancing chickens designed to die.

    There are some simple changes to be made. One need to think carefully, but it's simple. Lifekeeper as an example - it only accounts for HP of the owners. A simple change would be to account for damage taken, - it's wrong that noobie attack heals instead of damaging, even if a little, even if zero, but it shouldn't heal. DK should probably heal more from the heavy attacks, but less from the minor hits.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  10. Kiwigal1244

    Kiwigal1244 Junior Expert

  11. ULTRAPEINLICH

    ULTRAPEINLICH Forum Duke

    You are exaggerating. There have already been many reasonable suggestions how to nerf certain skills so they wont affect pve at all but will have a great impact for pvp balancing. Examples?
    - decrease stun charge dmg back to 75%
    This skill has become ridicously strong for pvp with its huge dmg boost. Leave it be a stun and escape skill, the ultimate trifecta of dmg, stun, escape is overpowered.
    - remove the perma stun ability for bleeding enemies
    Makes stun charge even stronger than it already is. The dk has 3 great stun abilities, each of them with short cooldowns. They really dont need a zero cooldown talebt on the best stun skill in the game.


    Nobody can seriously tell me these are nerfs that actually affect pve players. Charge is not a main dmg dealing skill in pve and perma stun is not needed in pve either.

    I could even go on and ask why you need a massive aoe radius of 3.2(?)on jump, but I'll leave it for now.
    This can be made for every class of course (feel free to make similar suggestions for rangers/dwarfs), but if you ask me stun charge is the most imbalanced skill in the game.

    On a sidenote: i dont know on which server you play, but on heredur and grimmag the player basis of highend chars is not as small as you say. Dso is an old game with small growth of newcomers, many players have reached the end game and many more will eventually.
     
  12. Demon

    Demon Forum Mogul

    Nerfing = less value for some players.
    In my opinion they should make positive balancing and add to other characters in order to make them equal.
    Nerfs means that they taking value from your work and in fact is their fault that they have make the wrong calculation so they should give other clases too not to take from players because that means that they steal from you.

    Example- they have made set q7 very strong - players hurry to get that set and spend andermant for TP and stones essence to get that set. After he get that set he is nerfed and he lose all that resources that normally he won't spend them if all sets will be equal maybe he will wait one to drop and use that.In this case BP win some money because they have done mistakes and that is not faire they should lose some value for that mistakes not to punish players.

    How about on jesters if you play 30 -60 minutes with andermant and suddenly after you spend 200k your screen get blue and you win the jackpot or a rune ? you have play faire you have spend ander but second day you won't find the ander on your account because was a problem a glitch or something and they consider that was a mistake from game to give you the jackpot. How about that, they had a coding problem or a miscalculation and two players get that jackpot, do you consider you need to pay for that?

    In society criminals get away with because prosecutors cand find the proofs and prescription come as punishment for incapacity of sistem to make his job.

    So if BP need to do do nerfs they should do that in short time after they notice that they have done a mistake so that players don't lose so much value and also they should give some compensations to recover the value that they lose , and here i have some ideas like a refiner that can extract a rank 0 item with values that you have craft on the item that will be nerfed so that you can recover the enchantments if that item is nerfed to bad and you can't use that anymore.

    Example- if hammer from gnob will be nerfed - if someone has grow the rank to 6 and put on that 4x50% damage - he lose value, time spend on events ander for bufs at events (for drakens=augment cores and to buy that hammer), time, essence waisted to farm for gold to craft that legendary weapon for transfer , andermant to get that 2 pieces from workbench if you don't have enough gold. Any nerf that can make that hammer less usable should came with some compensantions.So what they should do? Give them a 3 special refiners to extract value from that hammer - one to extract legendary item crafted, one to recover augment cores, one to destroy that hammer and get back the draken value if it was bought.

    Now that it should be the way to nerf, they should pay for mistakes not us.

    Ps i dont have a crafted with 4x50% and rank 6 hammer from gnob.
     
  13. -HARRA81-

    -HARRA81- Forum Mogul

    The best solution would be to make different values in the skills for PvE and PvP. Also creating a specific rules for certain arena sounds interesting too! e.g. For DK I think the large healing for 5vs5 is somewhat needed but way too powerful for 1vs1 (1-hand build).While the herald buffs for RA and SW could be tuned down in 1vs1 but they could stay as they are in 5vs5.
     
  14. Demon

    Demon Forum Mogul

    That is exact my point , thank you for understanding.
    If they make special arenas they can make tweaks at every patch and with every new items/set they introduce in game, also as you say they can change each arena to give a special experience for each one.
    This way they get away without giving compensations because all items will work properly on pve and in pvp they will nerf full stats until we can have a better pvp.

    So this damage mitigation explained earlier by bargain can be applied on every arena maps with small changes between them as you have said.

     
  15. Paavelsons

    Paavelsons Regular

    nerf this nerf that. jaja pvp and pve should stand part from eachother only cryers who came from swefrield pastures here cry who get killed there with red ess more like blue ess and cry use red use red :D but they dont realize its 150% net what buffed tanky tank with 1 shot or

    pve skills should not be nerfed all q7 set should get back theyr first 3 seconds.

    and limit pvp for 1.5 seconds.

    stopy cry about cant kill on pvp tanky tank.. everyone have own option to play and build corresponding gear to whack them easyly.

    ea is very precise but it kills very nice.. but against mage that sucker hits fireball so big i pass it i die from burns and pretty well oneshots. 5 balls and more

    i tell every skill for pvp should be fixed nerfed FOR PVP not pve..

    just think about it. its hardcore to make gold rankings to get gold for crafting and yet still fail to craft needed gear.
    better make easyer to farm pve to craft pvp gear to fail there. and try luck again on pve to get better and better and trust me this gets more and more people play on pvp.
     
  16. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Seems fair to me) but its not gonna happen, as we all know. So we can all relax and enjoy the mess that is coming.
     
  17. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    Seriously? I recommend that you go back and read all the posts regarding R155 and see for yourself how nerfing effected both pvp and pve. Then take a look at all the DK players who posted and then left the game as a direct result of having all their hard work removed.
     
  18. ULTRAPEINLICH

    ULTRAPEINLICH Forum Duke

    Your answer doesnt make any sense. These were different "nerfs" than those im talking about in my post. I suggest you read it again until you understand what i am talking about. Besides, the guys who left the game after r155 were just pathetic, after EVERY cap EACH class felt weaker. Not a single class got nerfed. Im sick of crybaby dks that try to tell me they were nerfed with r155, thats ********.
     
  19. rzixnion

    rzixnion Forum Apprentice

    The only class that needs nerfing is dk, theyre healing skill is pain in the bum in 1v1 arena. Theyre basically a walking "hp pot" . Just reduce their healing capability by .02% . Even the best of the other classes cant beat the best dk in 1v1.
     
  20. Moot

    Moot Active Author

    I disagree. Skip to the 15 minute mark.

     
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