Announcement Dwarf class & Skill Rebalancing

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by Sunlight, Jul 28, 2017.

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  1. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    magicus nice vids! those are some crazy strong and well built chars. thanks for the share. those were fun to watch! not everyone is that strong, but it's fun to see those that are. me on green at 29k green ess AFTER herald buff takes SO much longer as sm on boss.. i can clear maps on green easy, but bosses...hell no. so all the noob rangers and sw can't STOP compaining now about sm. see what your class can do? if you can't do that...you just suck. lol. magicus, what class do you play?
     
  2. magicus

    magicus Forum Apprentice

    I playing all class but my main are dwarf and war in this moment. I've been playing dso for a long time (6 years maybe or more)...
    If nerf the dwarf for me is not problem i have war but i ll lose much friends and i m sry for this...
     
  3. Shine2

    Shine2 S-Moderator Team Drakensang Online

    Dear AbradolfLincler let me just point out that while we enjoy your posts and find them interesting , it is also important to treat other Forum users with respect. We all are responsible for creating nice , friendly, family-like atmosphere here. It is worthwhile to carefully choose words while addressing other users and educate, discuss, express one's views in friendly manner. Let's not be too harsh on other users and treat them like members of our extended family so that everybody visiting this forum feels like at home:) Thank you.
     
  4. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    Shine2 i understand. i can be a bit stubborn. thanks for the warning. i'll back off my words again. it's just so difficult when people compare crafted classes to a char that isn't as well built through time and luck. i'll be more respectful. i'm sure there are some that can relate to my frustration though. i'll keep my posts a bit less insulting. thanks for the advice, my friend. i'm just REALLY upset about how some feel about this class vs theirs. again, i'll calm it down some. i DO get a bit feisty. :)

    so, to anyone i've gotten rude at, i'd like to apologize. sorry. i just want you to understand the ACTUAL balance here. please accept my apology and please dismiss my frustration. it's not guided AT you, but MORE at how the devs are making these changes.

    Shine2, once again. thanks for the heads up. i'll make my behavior a bit more mature here. i'm just frustrated.
     
  5. lordhead2

    lordhead2 Forum Greenhorn

    U are sured that is normal 3 and 4 de attack speed with ywo hands weapons?

    I think that isn´t normal, but It´s a opinion only.

    ty for u feedback to mine post
     
  6. Galvard

    Galvard Forum Mogul

    [EDIT]

    Tesla should be indestructible.
    Other classes has critical damage on all strong skills.
    If Automated turrets will not have attack speed multiplier they should have critical damage.
    If some turrets will be destructible then dwarves should have faster regeneration of steam.
     
    Last edited by moderator: Aug 7, 2017
    CaptainKruk likes this.
  7. anubi555

    anubi555 Forum Apprentice

    Plz remuwe dwarfs hevy shot coll down time (for pvp).
    Wear alredy worst char for pvp with this balancing it will go down iwen more.
     
  8. Galvard

    Galvard Forum Mogul

    OK but Heavy shot should use steam.
     
  9. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    lordhead2 fastest speed i know that i CAN talk about is Michelle. i think she is german or russian player. most SM are over 2.00 speed. i'm 2.61, but i'm pretty well crafted. ONLY free to play player. i never bought anything. so my sapphires aren't that big. thanks for your reply. i'm glad i can help explain my class. VERY few are above 3.00 speed. VERY rare.

    as some said, taking speed away from us via sapphires or the speed multiplier is like taking crit away from ranger or sw or 2h dk. adding crit WOULD be ok, but remember...we haven't had time to build up onyx gems. so that would hurt us too. i'm sure we can find a middle ground if BP and us work together.

    anolajen, it's not really 3 times damage as each do 30%. the hard part is that each one has a chance to crit. so it feels pretty dangerous. i agree mage are a bit too strong in pvp, but i think they're too weak in pve. it's pretty hard for the average sw to do some good damage or solo. fully crafted they can be great. they struggle until then though. frustrating part is a 7k damage sw or ranger can wipe out my 21k damage sm in pvp.

    KubQn, "Yea! Let's make dwarf turrets crits aswell and let them save ASP multiplier with it. Why not? It's only a 670% of non-stop DPS!". that's not how tesla works. tesla says "220% damage", but it doesn't hit much harder than the 65% damage mechanical turrets. it's not a viable skill to use with herald set either. MUCH more important to cooldown the buff than to use tesla. NO one is asking for us to get crit AND attack multiplier. no one is fighting to make us stronger. we're fighting to keep us where we are at least. you're obviously misguided on our ess use also. remember, we don't crit, so having skills that do "flat" damage for a long time makes up for it a little. we might be good at doing damage to a large mob, but that should benefit you in a party too! i don't get why we're arguing about class differences here in how classes can farm. with some crafting, some sets and some lucky drops, your class will kill the boss much faster. i can go infernal 2 and kill bosses with a dk on blue ess, but remember, i have a 3X gold line torso, belt, and weapon. still working on my helm. if you can't kill bosses on blue ess, you just need some crafting luck to get stronger. :) keep trying for it. you'll get that good gear soon. please just remember you can't compare your char to another unless you have similar items crafted. can't compare someone with only unique drops with someone that has transferred crafted legs onto unique items.

    i'd rather see BP give all classes a boost so mid-range chars can do lvl 4 and 5 easier, and just make higher infernal levels too for those that can do them. [EDIT]

    i've mentioned before that i was glad the extra damage from out ess was fixed. it made me weaker, but i think any honest player just accepted the fact that it was giving us too much. we went from equal to sw and ranger to weaker by far. 2h dk being the highest damagers. that ess issue was not fair and to be real, not many of us ever set down to do the math. we had no idea. it's not like we were reveling in our joy knowing we got too much of a boost. we were still struggling just like anyone else.

    the more i think about this turret hp issue, the more i don't agree with it. yes, wolves, tree-dude-guy-thing and sw guardian have hp on their minions, but that's NOT their main damage skill. it's just an extra thing they can use to stay safe or distract monsters in heavy mob situations. if rangers only had summon skills like sm...like...ALL they had were different types of animals/things to summon, and you took away the hp from them, you'd feel worthless too. it's not like wolves, tree-guy-dude-man or guardian do much damage. where as sm ONLY have summoned skills to use freely. the rest are HUGE cooldowns. it's just a different class with different unique skills.

    also, i saw someone talk about the ranger nerf that happened. that was a similar adjustment to sm and our ess issue. exploding arrow was destroying everyone in all types of pvp because they just had to send it and crit someone for 50k each time. however, i feel the 3 second to 2 second herald set change was NOT needed as their skills still took concentration to use. rangers are still capable with a little adjustment to play style and they're fun to play with.

    i hope the mods have been able to get some ideas to send to BP for us or at least show BP many many are not really happy about a total sm skill rebuild.

    also, let's talk again about the fact that all the other classes got a huge animation speed boost and sm have gotten slowed down. so now others can move around bosses quicker, and pvp quicker...yet sm will be slower. maybe i'm missing something, but if someone can help explain that it would be great. i'm lost on WHY everyone gets a boost, sm get slowed down, AND a huge skill adjustment at the SAME time. that's not balance. that's simple careless game changes.

    end of rant. (for now) lol
     
  10. cdeepal

    cdeepal Forum Baron

    If someone says every other class can out damage an SM in boss or killing monsters, that person is simply lying.
    I have all 4 classes at level 55 with similar builds and I know with whom I can kill anything fastest and easiest -> Steam Mecanicus.
    Currently, SM is the safest (meaning that I have to worry very less getting killed), and the fastest to get the bosses down and the fact that SM uses so little essences when hunting means I always hunt with blues or better.

    Having said that, I really don't see a need to get the SM nerfed in PvE. As I have said earlier and now, I disagree with the removal of machine gun attack speed multiplier. The machine gun is not a real problem for PvP matches. It is the single shot turret which is a pain for other players. Reduce the turret damage, but leave the machine gun and Tesla as it is.
     
  11. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    cdeepal, i'm talking about end game status. not mid game. sm do pretty well mid level. maybe your other chars don't have the crit hit/damage needed yet from crafting. not sure. i spend a LOT of time with players at +20k damage on green ess. i have almost 20k now. i have had dk test how fast we kill bosses separately and we've tried to minimize discrepancies in the times. we all use about the same ess per kill, but rangers, sw and 2h dk are smoking me on the boss kill times. granted, i haven't made my damage % helm yet, but that won't change my blue ess or higher damage. let's be realistic here. 20k damage PLUS crits will always outdamage sm 20k flat damage. i think your sm just had had some better gear drops and they're a little easier to build at first, but we can't get those crazy 70% crit hit and 4.50 crit damage stats to work with some REALLY good skills of other classes. sm are great for parties to clearing maps because we damage everything and it helps the other classes deal with mobs easier. it's about working as a team. reducing the blue turret damage is a horrible recommendation. other classes ALL have a 1 shot kill skill that they can spam pretty readily. most sm on my server hit me for like 2500 damage with their turrets when i get hit. that's not dangerous. all the while, sw, rangers and 2h dk without crazy gear can crit me for +30-50k. it's pretty easy to avoid our pvp turrets. hard part is if we toss down a machine gun and force you into it. not super common though as most see it coming a mile away and all classes have a couple methods of avoiding that situation. however, i hear often that people can't see machine guns in 5v5 or 6v6. THAT needs some adjustment, as walking blindly into a skill isn't fair. bp should fix that somehow. not sure why that happens, but you shouldn't be running on a pvp map and die before you see that skill on the ground. that's not cool. you should have just as much warning as any other skills to try to dodge them. i think part of the issue is that they fire a LITTLE bit further than the animation and the game takes a moment to display graphics sometimes due to lag/loading all the things going on. back to the original topic though, if you're telling me that my 19k damage without crits at 2.61 speed can reasonably compare to my crit class friends at 19-20k damage at +2.00 speed, you're sadly mistaken. sm are area damagers, not single target killers. my sw, ranger and 2h dk friends kill infernal I mini bosses in two hits. boom boom dead. sm can't do that, but that's ok. we have a different set of skills that work different. it takes me a little longer to kill the mini bosses if i'm solo with a dk and if my herald set buff doesn't get some nice crits on heavyshot spam, then it takes a little longer again. lol. you also mentioned "all 4 classes with similar builds", so maybe you're focusing more on damage than crits for the other classes? just asking. all i know is i've got a decent set up and i'm proud of how far i've come, but i've yet to kill a boss faster than my equally as strong ranger, sw and 2h dk friends. not sure why you think i don't burn through ess either. no one cares about green ess use. doesn't count, but when i go with 3/5 party with dk or sometimes 4/5 party we all use about the same amount of blue ess for infernal bosses. maybe +\-50-75 depending on when we had to run away or whatever. i guess you think sm just sit there, drop machine guns for 16 ess and run around like a fool. lol. no. i bang away with all the skills i can possibly use with the most efficiency. no use in using tesla as it bangs at the boss for a whole entire 60k over 10 sec while my 2h dk friend is hitting the boss for 200k off green ess EVERY mighty wild swing. better to cool off my herald set than use tesla.

    anyway, i hope i've maybe explained some things. it wasn't a rant at you. please don't take it that way. i'm just trying to explain my class to those that still think we're OP or super fast boss killers. sm has its own struggles just like any other class. no class is perfect or we'd all play that ONE class and the game would be awful.

    if anyone has made it though all my posts, you're a trooper!
     
  12. cdeepal

    cdeepal Forum Baron

    Looks like we need some math here.

    Let's take a 20 second time period.
    For simplicity let's say your damage is 20k and attack speed is 2.6
    Now, when you have two machine gun turrets running your damage would be 400% with the attack speed multiplier it would be
    = 20k x 2.6 x 400% = 208k

    Since SM class do not have to wait after a machine gun expired to spawn another, you can continuously fire.
    So, within the 20 secs SM damage output would be = 4.16 kk

    Since other classes cannot use helmet to get extra damage, a comparable SW or a DK would have about 18k damage, 80% crit 3.5 crit damage and about 2.0 speed (Note: SW will have to trade-off attack speed to get higher crit).

    Let's take SW. Every other class has to move around unlike SM, so we need to factor that they can only damage 70% of the time and move around 30% of the time.
    Within the 20 sec time period, an SW can do
    1 destruction 750% damage
    1 meteor 400% damage
    10 Frozen sphere = 380% x 10 = 3800%
    14 magic missiles = 100% x 14 = 1400%
    total = 6350%
    Average Damage = 18k * 3.5 * 80% + 18k * 20% = 54k
    Within 20 secs SW damage output = 54k x 6350% = 3.4 kk

    As you can see from the above calculations, the SM has about 25% more damage output than a SW and this is only considering the machine gun output and not considering other attacks like the quick shot, sharpnel shot which will further increase the damage output (not a lot, but still more)

    And in addition to the damage output, SM can use rings and the amulet to gain health. This is not a simple factor. They can on average gain as twice as much health as a DPS SW, DK or a Ranger. This gives SM an extremely unfavourable survivability advantage in PvE as well as in PvP. However, SM do have disadvantages as well, with the lack of stuns and stun breaks, this kind of evens things out a bit on the survivability aspect.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  13. EhtovK

    EhtovK Old Hand

    With all due respect, what I can see from the above calculations are a bunch of arbitrary numbers and scenarios for both cases, unless you're hitting immobile test dummies (which don't exist in this game anyway), or almost stationary bosses, you'd need to factor them moving around, if a midget is in a situation where he doesn't need to re-deploy turrets because the target moved, or to evade, then a SW in the same group would be in the exact same situation, and so would be a RA. Also you pulled out those numbers on the SW combo on what basis?, you mention no attack speed on the SW. Anyway, again, it's all arbitrary numbers pulled out of nowhere, if you want to prove a point you gotta do it right and solid.
     
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  14. AbradolfLincler

    AbradolfLincler Someday Author

    cdeepal, i don't understand how you feel sm don't need to move around. lol. it's not like we just deploy turrets once and the bosses die. i DO see where you use the % numbers from the skills, but i think you weren't able to add in crit to the final number. if you were comparing both classes without crit yes, an sm would out damage other classes insanely, but the other classes get some pretty sweet crits nowadays especially on those big damage skills. sometimes it's harder to compare things on paper vs actually using them. it LOOKS like sm have crazy damage output capabilities on paper, but we're running around just as much as the other classes and we're not getting those gnarly crits. i never really thought about making a full hp amulet, but i am working on making a better ring to swap onto dragan. sm and sw have the same hp multipliers. ranger have a little better one because they have a couple melee skills that are worth using. 2h dk and tanks get larger hp because they are strictly melee class. as for the damage thing, i know several SW with 23k damage and +4.30 crit damage at about 75% crit hit. so i'd say it's a fair trade off and numbers like that can easily be achieved with some time and luck at the crafting bench and some friends to help with harder bosses and such. anyway, i hope you don't take it like i was shutting you down or something. a LOT of people's ideas about sm come from youtube videos of some REALLY crazy strong sm. so i think that gives a false impression. also, some of them are like +4 year players and they've paid quite a bit for gems and prem/deluxe for extra gems/melts. bottom line, is i'm physically comparing equally crafted friends in other classes and really seeing them get strong and dealing a LOT more damage at the boss fights. all the classes could probably use some SMALL adjustments here and there, but this nerf hammer could really make the game miserable.

    i've been trying to get friends to post a video of them at bosses and such so we could show a fair comparison, but everyone is so afraid of their class getting hit hard that they don't want to make any videos to show their stats, how fast they can do bosses comparable to other classes etc. also, some people prefer to keep their stats to themself and/or gear combos. it's not like there are many secrets in dso, so i don't really understand that, but i'll just respect it.
     
  15. Galvard

    Galvard Forum Mogul

    cdeepal:A lot of dwarves do not have attack speed 2,6. Some dwarves have only runes for attack speed, they do not have sapphires. Some bosses move then turrets do not shoot for 10s.
    Your calculation is only theory.
     
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  16. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    Simply reading the description and the used wording.
    If you had any confidence with other MMORPG or DSO itself you would find out that wording is the central point of any skill mechanic, it's what define the difference between attack speed and weapon attack speed, weapon dmg and dmg on this item and other mechanics of the game.

    Wherever you see the "damage in x seconds" you are talking about a DoT and the formula for DoT's includes the Crit dmg; it's not hard to understand.

    Try to use them in the test server, let the mobs destroy your turrets every 3" as showed in the first video posted and come back to tell me how's good.

    See above, but, differently to what happens in the first video in which the Littlelady has about 3.2 attack speed, do that with a normal toon with about 1.3 attack speed and enjoy.

    This happens only in specific situations (static bosses hold in place from a tank), yourself admitted that:
    this is the specific situation in which you got the full potential from the long lasting turrets, otherwise you will dismantel and deploy em way faster.
    What you missed instead is, that those turrets ARE the main DMG source of dwarfs and once a boss is able to remove em efficiently, you got no other option to attack unless you start stacking crit to deal some DMG with your autoattack but, how would look like your RA if you stop using EA or any resource spender? Try it and let me know, this is what's happening on TS when you solo and to some extent in boss fights.
    In the maps, other classes have much more balanced DMG sources because you don't need 225% DMG per sec over 10" but just a couple of high DMG skills (it's better to deal 1000% DMG in 1" than 1000% over 4" when you have to farm a map).
    Other than that, dwarfs DON'T have any other reliable source of DMG unless you would consider a reliable source of DMG Heavy shot (like saying that precision shot with 3" cooldown and 1" channeling could be considered a solid source of DPS).

    Show me where I said this, show me where ANYONE here said this.
    The best you can find is a discussion I was having with another well known player with much more knowledge than you about the game in which we were factoring BOTH the ASPD AND CRITS in EXCHANGE of a lower skill multiplier that would be the "decent" solution for everyone so the devs wouldn't have screwed all at once the hard work players put on their toons crafting ASPD gear.

    And so are dwarfs but dwarfs regen 2,5 steam per sec while mages and RA regen more than twice and three times faster, mages do have also 5 mana per hit regen and RA do have full restore on Killing blow (which is crap and I would ask for a change but still it's better in some situations -> maps farming).

    Singularity IS NOT an AoE but it's a SUMMON.
    ANY AoE DO STACK (most of all when from different players).
    ANY other summon do stack (tho they are not AoE): double mechanical turrets, wolfes and so on.

    The inconsistance which proves there is something wrong is: Machingun turrets are SUMMONS AoE and they STACK (both from the same player and the different players), Teslas DO NOT stack (even from different players)

    Infact I'm playing a game in which I see wolfes coming from the ground, turrets dropping from the sky and ice missiles from the human dark hole but you have problem to think about a turret that looks like a banner of war in the game mechanics? I'm sorry I'm not as geek as you and I'm not looking at how "realistic" some mechanics of the game are; I'm not used to spend my time wondering if Hulk is better than Superman at moving mountains.

    So you are telling to the one that posted all the screenshot about all the summons from a dwarf in that thread how the turrets are working?
    Now answer this question: WHY are you so convinced that turrets are summons and so should be threated? If I look at their description ALL there is written, leads a NORMAL person to consider them AoE DoTs.
    A NORMAL person, if had to do any changement on their behavoiur, would have turned them into normal AoE as ANYONE on the forum always asked which would include that they wouldn't be target-able and would CRIT.
    The main problem is that THERE WAS NO NEED to do that because:
    - if the DMG output was the problem, then they could simply lower the skill multiplier.
    - if the problem was that dwarfs could move while the turrets were attacking, they could simply restrict the range.
    - if the problem was the low ess cost, they could shorten the duration.
    - if the problem was the steam cost, they could shorten the duration.

    Simple solutions to simple problems with SMALL tuning per time because, when you make the game unplayable and the players leaves it, you've lost em forever.

    Turnig the AoE turrets into normal AoE or forcing dwarfs to use crits would have simply killed the class diversification.
    Would have been that bad to have a class that doesn't rely on crits? Definatly not infact I've proved with SOLID arguments that this doesn't give any advantage. It only leads dwarfs to use different equipment from other classes.
    If also dwarfs had to use crits this would lead all the classes to use the same identical build:
    - dragan helm -> full crit rate enchants
    - arackna necklace -> full crit dmg
    - 1 x mortis ring -> full crit dmg
    - dragan ring -> full crit dmg
    - Q8 set -> full crit rate adornament + full DMG suite
    - Karabossa cloak

    Eventually I forgot something but definatly we have seen how would look like 90% of the equipment in game for all the classes and all the players, what a joy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  17. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    All turrets are minions.
    Singularity has AoE with 4,3m radius.
    Singularity also stack ... only with AB ... and only with one another class' AB skill (headbut or rocket or EA)
    In both cases it is not a bug.
    To understand that you have to have basic understanding in Computational/Mathematical Logic, Set Theory and Sets (and the basic operations: Complements , Intersections, Cartesian Product, Unions)which are all part/topic of the Discrete Structures/Mathematics.
    You don't need math ... you only need to make a point.
    And I agree with the point.
    That is totally possible even with moving targets ... one example: Herald of the Underworld.
    Everything in this game is theory ... a simulator can't be done ... because apart from the constants (skill's damage, duration ... etc) monster's AI, movement, player's skills, preferences and gaming style are having a major role. It would always end up in different outcome ... even if you observe a same player from any class.
    Also ... all major skills from the other classes are affected by breakpoints ... the turrets don't have breakpoints .
    Furthermore ... going over some particular breakpoint is counterproductive.
    So why are players playing midgets feeling under-powered in PvP? Very simple ... because they as any other class are building extreme glass cannons ... neglecting the defense and putting all on damage and attack speed.

    All this said doesn't mean i agree with the nerfing ... I already made my statement earlier.
     
  18. cdeepal

    cdeepal Forum Baron

    My numbers are solid. I have taken attack speed, crit rate and crit damage into account. You may have not read my post clearly to understand the math I have used.
    Yes, SM moves, but the turrets don't have to. The turrets continues to attack even if the SM got stunned, even when SM is moving.
     
  19. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    Turrets use the "non crit formula", they don't have HP, they can't move, they can't chase the target (only mechanical turrets does and, for this reason, I said it's one turret that could be converted to the mud they are are gonna do), they don't generate any agro (even tho bosses will actively try to remove them).
    The fact that they use the "non crit formula" doesn't make em summons, they are gonna make em "summons" with the current nerf on the TS.

    Singularity uses the same "non crit formula" as any turret or any other summon, therefor, based on your logic, it's a summon (or you will have to agree with me that turrets aren't summons)

    https://board-en.drakensang.com/threads/dwarfs-essence-bug-the-king-of-bugs.73613/page-2#post-670394
    (the screenshot have been removed because photobucket sucks but, since you have a SW on the TS it won't be hard for you to test it... or don't, I don't care, facts are the way they are with or without your approvation).
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  20. EhtovK

    EhtovK Old Hand

    Aye, aye, because bosses stay nicely put in the stream of the MG turrets and inside Teslas without hesitation, my point was this, Trakilaki just explained it better:

    So one could put a load of those constants into play and pull a backwards scenario outta my sleeve where a SM can't keep up with a SW, the constant of boss' movement and the affixed MG turrets can have a huge impact on essence costs, DPI and time consumed, when it comes to re-targetting, I as a SW can keep damaging a moving boss, while a SM has to re-deploy, although I agree that with a tank "aggro-ing" or an immobile boss SM might have an edge as per the native mechanic of the MG turrets. I'll say it again, a balance/redesign of the midget is reasonable, but these changes are way too far from balance, they're just class wreckers, I won't try to explain it further, the release will speak for itself when it comes live.

    But know what?, I don't care anymore, instead of following the idea proposed by others of suggesting and demanding improvements for other classes instead of nerfs, a lot of people seem to be in love with the idea of a class getting nerfed out of..., I don't even know out of what. Let the nerf train come, for us SW too, and for DK, and why not a second time around for everyone?, let's make us all equally mediocre to later come and moan about infernal being too hard, and how "BPs greed is killing the game" when we're the ones advocating for poorly thought (if at all) changes. :D
     
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