Feedback Dwarf: Q7+Q8 combo

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by ΣMiwel, Jan 8, 2019.

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  1. MikeyMetro

    MikeyMetro Forum Overlooker

    :D Ofc, it was just a poke. It's like me saying that I have been playing this game since 2011... sounds a lot longer than it really is because this acct was created in Dec 2011 ;)
    Last edited by moderator: Jan 18, 2019
  2. Bundin

    Bundin Regular

    Oh really I played in Beta with the game, but with dwarf I could only Play from 2013 earlier can u not playing with dwarf my first acc was created on heredur Server in 2011 September, but I dont liked it later in 2012 I started a new account with mage, and again a new account did I in 2013 for my dwarf... but this is not so important, in every game I play gladly with dwarf race I am a dwarf race fun when we could say it so... so 2013 nov.6 was me an exiting date because the dwarf calss :D :D :D
  3. Night-Elemental

    Night-Elemental Forum Apprentice

    I'm a main dwarf player btw.

    Yes, we can. But only for 3 buffs, after that you have to reinstall the blue turrets. And if boss mechanics get in the way then rip turrets and FLEE

    True, but that isn't as good a compensation for the other classes. I will go into that matter later.

    Why nerf the dwarf when you can instead buff the other classes or provide them with equal sets? I won't have my *fun* gameplay ruined just because the other classes' sets can't keep up with mine.

    I'm assuming we have a tank in the group. But even if not... You can kite him without him moving. That works on most moving bosses.
    And the blue turrets would also have a hard time hitting if the boss keeps moving. Also keeping in mind that the dwarf has a smaller area in which to move. All other classes have a much higher potential movement area. But it is true, I'm having a constant damage-provider in the background even if i'm running around the boss.

    Hmmmmmmmmm I still haven't read all of this xD I'm probably answering to stuff which has already been clarified.
    But for me (as a main dwarf player) it also seemed that the dwarf's Q7 and Q8set are a dream combination. No other class had something like that. The warrior with Q7 has a built-in cooldown reduction, but while he is doing that he won't deal much damage.

    I made some calculations to get the exact amount of % dmg I would do on bosses (assuming that I'm not getting attacked or have to move)
    A blue turret hits 15 times in 10 seconds. I'm critting twice, it's 45 hits now. Each hit does 110% of my base dmg.
    Thus we get 2*45*110% = 9900% damage from both Q8 turrets in 10 seconds. (Since I'm not quite sure if it would really deal more dmg overall if you buff the Q8 turret with the Q7 buff I'm using the normal damage here)

    Calculating the heavy shot damage:
    I'm assuming I hit 8 times (speed 2.3) in 1 rocket buff if I spam the rocket. So that makes 102*3*8*1,5(Q7 buff) + 200*1,5(rocket dmg) = 3972% damage in 3 seconds. In 10 sec that would be 13240%

    9900+13240 = 23140% in 10 sec
    --> Sooooo 2314% damage per second.

    Would someone care to repeat the procedure for his/her class? I don't know much about mage and I haven't yet looked deep enough into ranger and DK sets/skills/rotations. I think this is the only way to compare DIRECT boss DPS. For AoE and Map DPS it's not suitable of course.

    This all seems to prove the point - dwarf is hella broken.
    But wait - there is another point to mention. Even though dwarves seem to be crazy OP on bosses, they take time to prepare for the big damage-spamming. That comes into account on normal mobs. Whenever I'm doing a guild run mages and rangers just spam everything away and by the time I've put up my 2 blue turrets everything's dead already.. It's not fun to play like this actually O:
    And if you also have a bad tank on bosses he will turn and move the boss so your turrets might be out of range or destroyed.
    For me it looks like the dwarf(especially with Q7/8) is designed to be the best single target-DPS. The other classes shine on mobs then.
    But hey - I can understand if that's still not satisfying. Since nowadays mobs are just some low tier obstacles which you quickly dispatch it would be unfair for a class to be best at that but worse at bosses.

    My solution to satisfy everyone:
    • Make mobs harder again (with better drops plz)
    • provide a set for both mob/crowd focus and another set for boss focus.
    Each set should have a support ability for when they are not needed. An idea: Q4-Tesla turrets could give +x Mana for everyone in range --> People are gathering in the Tesla in the boss room
    Make a general support set which people could use when it's not their time to shine with their special set.
    What happens? Groups become more important, since your would then ideally have both mob- and boss specialists.

    In my opinion there should be more options to specify your own way of playing. I'd even want mage/ranger and dwarf tanks :D Sooo more sets which are either good at bosses, mobs or allround (aka bad at both XD)
  4. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    OK, Recommend how to buff the other sets to compare to this. Tell me how you would rework the set for SWs, RAs, and DKs to buff the other classes to the point where they can have 6 seconds of cool down reduction per second AND do 1000% of their base damage per second on average.

    No one is going to listen to you if you say such obviously inaccurate statements. There are very few bosses that move fast enough that mechanical turrets will miss.
    On the other hand, a SW's Lightning Strike has to be dead center (the enemy hasn't moved at all) if the lightning strike is going to do max damage. A little twitch to the left or right and the damage is no where close to what it should be.

    You point the flaw in your own argument. You do damage while you dodge the boss. Every other class needs to be temporarily stationary to attack, even if it is just for a split second. A mech takes about 2-3 seconds, but then could run for the next 7-8 seconds and only lose out on a small fraction of their potential DPS. You may have a small area that you are confined to, but when all you need to worry about it dodging, it is a lot easier than balancing damage with dodging.

    Reread the opening post... this is literally the math that he did, but in greater detail... then he (and me too) goes on to show that no other class can come close to put out that sort of sustained damage... but that isn't the worst of it... this damage is all buffed by the Herald buff because of the cool down reduction. With the cool down reduction for the rocket reduced to "functionally nonexistent" because the rocket is already ready when you need to refresh the turrets, a SM is putting out 1000% of their Q7 buffed base damage every second for the entire fight! And that is the low end estimate based almost solely on the mechanical turrets with tons of running around. The best theoretical math I could come up with for a DK was 540% per second on a 30 second cycle... and that is only if there is a tank and they don't need to use HP recovery (lower damage) or dodge (missed damage opportunity).

    Now you are showing how little you understand how the math of this game, which in my opinion disqualifies you from offering an informed opinion in this debate. The 150% is of the "%Damage" type of multiplier, which means that it is factored in the same calculation step as essence, wisdom, gear, etc.... This is not a skill damage multiplier.

    Seriously? Go read the FIRST TWO POSTS IN THIS THREAD!!!!! Who in their right mind jumps into an argument without even knowing what the people are arguing about!

    Come back when you have read all 62 of the posts before yours and understand what this thread is actually about.
  5. Night-Elemental

    Night-Elemental Forum Apprentice

    You don't need to give them the SAME goodies as Q8 has. Just take the dwarf's %base dmg per second and make sure the class gets a set which can keep up with that.
    Yes, of course it's easier to hit with BT than with LS. But if you're playing with a competent tank none of these problems will occur. And that's what I'm doing, assuming the boss isn't moving and no distractions are happening. Could you stop going for my throat now?
    I already achnowledged that the other classes have to deal dmg constantly and that it's easy for a dwarf just to have fully buffed turrets out after 3 seconds that deal ~40% of his total DPS.
    And here I was just pointing out that since SM are highly turret-dependant we have a disadvantage here. If everything is set in the area the dwarf deals huuuge damage, but if the boss leaves or destroys turrets we take MUCH more time to readjust this/restore steam. I'm not justifying the insane damage the turrets deal though.
    if i just ran i'd still use my main DPS provider. It is true that the turrets deal MUCH more dmg than what you said a DK would in a banner. And that needs to change by adjusting the other classes' sets.
    Not by nerfing the cooldowns....
    hhhh, yes unfortunately I have to say the game math's is not so easy.
    I take it the 150% work like having an extra "150% damage" enchantment? So they just apply to the primary damage then...
    Anyway, my damage after using rocket roughly raises by 150% so I assumed this was how it worked. So tell me again, great maths senpai, how does this apply to the 102%*3 of my heavy shot.
    Chill down, mate. Yes i've seen your percentages for the DK, but I haven't seen any outcome of the ranger's or mage's total DPS if they could just spam their attacks, say on a training dummy.
    But why so toxic though? I didn't say you're not right.
    Dunno, DKs could technically use Fury of the dragon as a "turret". I'd then lower the time and fury it takes to activate this skill. Maybe make it stack like 3 times. They don't necessarily have to get the SAME CDR as dwarves.

    Oh and it'd be nice to know what DPS you can get with a dwarf's group CD buff. Because with Q8 I don't really profit from that buff, only if my turrets get destroyed.

    PS: If i missed anything already answered in that conversation get your rage out somewhere else. I don't have time to read all this and I don't need your choleric comments on that ;)
  6. MikeyMetro

    MikeyMetro Forum Overlooker

    o_O Unless something has changed since I have spent significant time playing DK... Fury does not stack.
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  7. Night-Elemental

    Night-Elemental Forum Apprentice

    I meant if you were to buff classes this would be a possible way. More DoT for DKs via Fury
  8. MikeyMetro

    MikeyMetro Forum Overlooker

    Oh ok. Yeah that would be cool then my DK in pvp could just do stun- banner-fury-fury-fury-stun-fury-fury-fury-stun-fury-fury-fury :rolleyes:
    Bundin and ΣMiwel like this.
  9. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Ambassador

    Well... first and foremost, it's way simplier to nerf one problematic set combo for one class instead of buffing countless other possibilities for all the classes. It's not like I want only balance between classes... I don't want dwarfs to be all forced into using that particular combo.

    A quote by our very friend which demonstrates why to "ruin your 'fun' gameplay":
    If we were to implement your idea (buffing the other classes)... let's see what can be done.

    Mage: Double the damage of LS, Destruction, Meteor and FS. Double the trail damage of FS. Make FS tick 3x a second on the trail, because it can pass through a mob without hitting him once. Double the damage of the Q4 cross-beams of LS and make them subject to increase against electrified enemies, and make it electrify them. Double the damage of the 5p. talent explosion of LS and make it subject to increase against electrified enemies. How much damage would them deal then?
    FS = 350*2 + 60*2*2 = 940[%] per hit from average explosion (counting in two ticks of trail damage)
    LS = 250*2 + 75*2 + 100*2*1,5 = 950[%] per hit of unelectrified enemies at the center point
    LS = (250*2 + 75*2 + 100*2)*1,5 = 1275[%] per hit of electrified enemies at the center point
    Destruction = 750*2 = 1500[%] per hit...
    Meteor = (400+200)*2 = (800+400)[%] from hit and burning together, I kept those numbers apart since it's possible to send a few meteors one after another if used MC, and then burning is counted anew after each him, making the mob suffer less/none at all damage from burning
    These number seem out of the earth already, right? Now think we aren't able to send one FS/LS/D/M every second just like that, well, maybe we could make an average of one per second with enough speed, max mana, mana cost reduction and cooldown reduction (way more that specified in the original post), but come on... dwarf has double that with q7 buff on top of that and without all those stats I said (well, maybe except for speed).

    Ranger: Double the damage of BD, BoP, PS, EA, ToT 5p. talent and wolves/tree. Quadruple the basic damage of ToT. Cut in half essence costs of PS. I could go on to the 300%, 600%, 1000%, etc. the skills would do, as I did for the mage... but I don't feel it worth it.

    I hope you all got the message. If someone has difficulties understanding me... I can repeat that in plain words.

    Attempting to buff mage and ranger to reach dwarf's level of damage (counting in heavy shots) reach astronomical displayed numbers of a single skill base damage percentage that would bring extreme whine (from dwarfs and knights) if they were introduced. Meanwhile, dwarfs have that all the time, by hidden as a rain of bullets dealing little damage each, and nobody has a problem with it?

    And keep in mind that that "40% of his total DPS" is double the damage of other classes, or even more if turrets are placed with the buff from rocket.
    Yes, it's just an extra "enchantment", just like essence. What will be the increase in the outcome skill damage depends on how much global percentage you have in your enchantments and essence so far. Anyways:
    You are multiplying that by 150% instead of adding +150% (which is the buff).
    Thus your calculations are completly accurate for a character that has overally +200% to global damage from his items, essence and wisdom. This means...
    ...that this kind of damage is a thing for many strong characters, assuming no essence is used. So over four times the damage of a mage that has high max mana, mana cost reduction and cooldown reduction.

    I saw that something is wrong with Q7 for all the classes... That's why I suggested a revamp of q7 set some time ago, giving completly different bonuses to all the classes. Back then it got a big no from all the q7 users afraid of losing their OP advantage.
    Now, as we see growing problems with the q8 set, I'd say: rework them both for all the classes... would I get support if I created another thread with an idea? And most importantly... even if I would, would the devs care?
    MikeyMetro likes this.
  10. Night-Elemental

    Night-Elemental Forum Apprentice

    Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not contradicting you in saying that dwarves are OP atm, just correcting some statements that seem wrong.

    Well, I'm just debating over PvE changes because I'm not much of a PvP player. I don't see why this would be problematic though. People can just jump out of your banner radius and you can't get at them anymore.
    But anyways, the set bonus wouldn't apply to PvP (and I suggested this as a set bonus, buffing the FoD)

    Hm, I would say the damage I myself (without turrets) deal while on buff roughly matches the dmg other classes deal on their buff. The OP factor here is that I can deal that amount of damage constantly while other classes have to wait for their cooldown or reduce it before being able to buff themselves again. AND of course the turrets do constant damage in the meantime.
    So I would not say ONLY the turrets deal DOUBLE dmg than other classes. Maybe overall the dwarf does, yes.

    And about nerfing the cd-reduction: I don't think it will work this way. First: Dwarf's group buff works wonders. You don't actually need the Q8 set if you want rocket every 3 sec. I think it would just make you wait like 1-2 seconds then.
    If you were to nerf the set you should nerf the dmg from the turrets by reducing the dmg each projectile does by 2/3. That way it would do just as much dmg as a non-Q8-turret and would still enable the dwarf to nonstop use Q7buff. And to compensate for that I would give other classes either enough DoT (say DK gets a massive FoD boost and dunno mage burning DoT and ranger gets apet revamp which makes the tree shoot lasers out of its bird :D(on range so the melees don't get blocked)) or give them a way to faster reduce their Q7buff skill or just buff their overall non-DoT (i'm counting turrets as DoT) damage.

    Please don't just assume I'm defending dwarves here. It would of course hurt to see dwarves nerfed, but I have started playing a ranger recently and seen that it's just tedious to have to deal dmg all the time myself (I'm a lazy dwarf). And yes I see your point here, dwarf is the best DMG class (OP pls nerf).
    But I also think the sets of the other classes are a bit boring (I got bored of ranger pretty quickly actually) and they should buff some of the skills that aren't getting used much or provide an alternate set (q4 revamp? atleast for ranger/DK/dwarf) so that people don't HAVE to play Q7. Or provide a way to actively boost your dps instead of just having to wait until your Q7buff skill comes back on and spam default attacks in the meantime..

    Yup, on the buff dmg was raised by a factor of 1.5 so this seemed accurate. I'm a bit confused by dso's math sometimes (although it's logical, yes)

    You came to 527% DPS with Q4 there which is admittedly very low in comparison to the Q7/8 dwarf output. But since Q4 is an AoE-Set i need to insist on comparing the mage Q7 to the dwarf Q7. (Well, we all know dwarf's will still do more DPS but I want to know just how much of a difference there is)
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
  11. lovatic66

    lovatic66 Junior Expert

    I have seen magicians with 400 mana and more than 3.00 attack speed, launch countless attacks with more than 500% non-stop. :)

    [video removed]

    The set of q8 is needed more for the reduction of time in skills, the missile asks for more 20s to be used again.
    Last edited by moderator: Feb 1, 2019
  12. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    What you didn't say is ... that spellweaver is a cheater. He is exploiting.
    Last edited by moderator: Feb 1, 2019
  13. callme0216

    callme0216 Padavan

    [EDIT - detailing an exploit]

    I even asked a moderator about this ,and yet again.. he said there is no bug abuseing.

    And think a littlebit.
    People since DtU event introduced useing the cape just to get to the mount faster, this is the same as EDIT
    Last edited by moderator: Feb 1, 2019
  14. lovatic66

    lovatic66 Junior Expert

    What do you mean, 2 buff de mana?o_O
  15. Mal3ficent

    Mal3ficent Guest


  16. callme0216

    callme0216 Padavan

    I cant private messeage you and not going to offtopic for too long, but i feel i should respond to that by saying this.

    Well then my bad, the moderator misslead me.
    But furthermore i dont understand why would it be since BD event pinata rigging was an exploit to abuse the system with following an alorithm. I would call that an exploit, but when the set itself say that after useing the skill you get the buff anyways..

    If the set would work right and BP would care about it they would remove the buff from the char when a ... not going to describe it how.

    And yet again then DtU Cape is exploiting too.
  17. Mal3ficent

    Mal3ficent Guest

    @callme0216 ,
    We are not policing other forums, so we would not know what is going on there.
    As to your question, I cannot answer it here on forum. If you are still keen to hear the answer, please contact English support and link my post in the ticket. Just say, you have a question for BA Mal3ficent. The support officer will contact me and I will answer your question in private.

    callme0216 likes this.
  18. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Forum Pro

    I cant watch the video since it was removed but ...
    And you know what's funny?
    That mage, which is using 'exploit' of some sorts

    (im positive I know what is it about and calling it 'exploit' is beyond stupid. More like a mechanic at this point since it's present since August 25, 2016 AT LEAST)

    is still dealing less damage than dwarf which isnt using any kind of exploit, doesn't need 'resource' tonics and physics (can invest in defence from tonics like hp, block and in offence from physics like %damage, %crit damage, %crit n stuff).

    That alone should be considered a red flag.
  19. lovatic66

    lovatic66 Junior Expert

    I don't know why they say exploit, it's not the only magician who launches infinite attacks, they use 2 mana buff, something easy to reach, set of witches 4 pieces +33% mana, q1 toga 28-30% mana, + 100 mana buff + 24% mana + henomago weapon for full attack speed.

  20. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Dragan's Rageful Armor has been released back in June 2017 and the bug was fixed with R214.
    The laser is still bugged on live severs ... it is fixed on TS with R215.

    Do you see your video taken out?
    No, that means there is nothing wrong with it.
    The exploit is not what you think.
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