How crafting 2.0 ruined pvp

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by ElveElve, Sep 22, 2016.

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  1. ElveElve

    ElveElve Someday Author

    In my honest opinion craft 2.0 is the best and worst thing that happened to PvP in this game.

    - Best, because it equalises everything (e.g. everyone will have around 40% runspeed boots, same level, balanced)

    - Worst, because people who do not craft are left way, way, way behind.

    The 'worst' part, combined with how 'luck and grind' dependent the craft 2.0 is, makes PvP even worse to play. Majority of players I know dont even bother crafting the proper 1-1-2-3-4 line (green, blue, pink, leg, leg) style, and are massively quitting the game, i mean look at my guild, people have enough.

    So do something about this, long term the pvp will be overrun with people who only craft their items, which believe or not will be minority. For me, I cannot get the golden line 2hand green/blue from solo fatal farm for over a month. I made 100k+ ander, 20k+ gold, still not even a single 78%+ dmg line on a weapon. This puts me off. I can't progress even a tiny bit after 10 hours of grind non-stop.

    Just a thought. Lets' discuss your opinions.

    Elve.
     
  2. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    You need to pvp more and use the honor points to buy green and blue items, especially weapon pieces.

    Having said that, it does seem that the most come gold lines are +dam lines and the least common is % weapon dam or %crit dam
     
  3. cdeepal

    cdeepal Forum Baron

    I disagree. Only a very few people have maxed out gear in PvP arenas.
     
    sebastian_fl likes this.
  4. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    Also disagree. Noone has yet maxed out gear. An item here and there, maybe, but not full 4x max gold lines balanced builds. Ppl are still learning, and the possibility to get 4x gold item also influences the setup, so impacts other items. Its a much longer process.

    Plus, in order to have all those 4x gold items, you have to farm and craft like crazy. And its okay that those who farm more, get more.

    Before the crafting 2.0, pvp was a mess, as noobs were close to pros in terms of dmg, and arena was a joke. It is still a joke, but now you have a possibility to create some gap.
     
  5. SUPERDOUPER

    SUPERDOUPER Junior Expert

    well its not only crafting 2.0 that ruined pvp, the biggest issue there is class unbalance and craft 2.0 maybe have boost some players there but it's not solely to blame..
     
  6. -Skyfire-

    -Skyfire- Someday Author

    So a mechanism that rewards players for playing smart and playing a lot is somehow bad? If you lose a lot in pvp, why not focus on pve until you get better gear? If you can't get 78% lines why not go for 75%? I also know some people who do not craft, but that is no reason to get rid of it. Would you get rid of gems if people who are unable to realize their benefits just sold them for gold?
     
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  7. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    No, Crafting 2.0 didn't ruin PvP, the changes to the skill system in R155 did that.

    That enabled huge damages or huge HPs to become the norm. Crafting 2.0 only exaggerated the existing problem. The key here is alter skill effects in PvP (and I don't just mean shorter stuns) and to implement some sort of damage mitigation and HP mitigation to help bring the extreme builds under control while not destroying PvE.

    The damage mitigation solution I recommended ages ago in the CM thread involved adjusting damage down based on a logistic curve. Basically, the more damage you have, the closer your damage mitigation gets to 50%. This would force players to consider well rounded builds as opposed to just going for the extremes. A similar function could be applied to HP to adjust the HP runners with 30k+ HP, but with no damage to force those.
     
    Reinier and EhtovK like this.
  8. cdeepal

    cdeepal Forum Baron

    But why? If it is their choice to go all damage, then it is their choice. Why do you want them to make a balanced build? It is your choice and not theirs.
    And remember, they are sacrificing defense for damage. It is fun to have different types of builds in the arena. If everyone has balanced builds, then it would be so boring.
     
  9. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Because then it is no longer about skill. It is all about who can hit who first. Once upon a time, PvP required more than just being able to stand as far away as possible and hope for a hit. I don't want to see variety gone; I want to see the return of skill to PvP. Even with the proposed damage mitigation, I'm sure there would still be some "high" damage builds with 4k damage who's tactics would still be to snipe, but it wouldn't be as over the top. I've been one shot by an explosive arrow that did over 15k damage between the primary hit and the secondary hit. Did it take any skill to land that from beyond visual distance? No. Did it take any maneuvering and using all the skills available to play smart? No. It was achieved by throwing cash at the game until reaching a point where one hit is all they need. Like has already been said, PvP is broken and the huge damages are a large part of that problem...
    The problem is, there aren't many builds in the arena. SWs play 2H with fireball or frost sphere. RAs play with high crit, high crit damage and spam EA waiting to get lucky. SMs drop turrets that do 5k+ per hit and then run/heal while the opponent chases. DKs play with a shield and just run out the clock or with a 2H Charge that takes most damage dealers out in one hit.

    That isn't my definition of fun because it already is boring. I've played games with good PvP, even games that are 100% centered around PvP, and any game that has a "whoever hits first wins" mentality is not a game that is recognized for it's PvP.
     
    VMmage, Gevilson, Beldak and 2 others like this.
  10. mjmuju

    mjmuju Junior Expert

    It's like you're saying "people who do nothing are left way, way, way behind."
    or "people who do not farm are left way, way, way behind."
    Not exactly the same, but not too different either.

    Sorry, I don't get it. So, they do nothing and then just left?
    Why do you complaining about that? Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Just curious, what do you consider as minority in this case?
    From my own PoV, this feature gives everyone the same opportunity to improve their toons. Either f2p or p2p.

    o_Oo_Oo_O
    100k+ ander and 20k+ gold, and not to mention glyphs, gems, cubes (if you're premium user), pot, materi and realm frags, achievement progression.
    Are not even considered as progression for you?
    Then what do you consider as a progress, buddy?
    Either your standard is too high or maybe mine is too low :D Sorry then.
     
  11. bloodyneo

    bloodyneo Forum Master

    introducing crafting 2.0 is a bigger mistake then trading system and the big killer to this game that all servers went empty because removing 3 sec immunity(PVP) to please and bring back the quitting DKS to the game
     
  12. gun

    gun Forum Great Master

    Hi Elve,

    Novadude, cdeepal, sebastian_fl, baragain, & mjmuju points are valid.

    In short, your post telling us about players effort and the effort result that differ one another.
    I would say in long term PVP would be overrun by players who really care with his/her toon.

    Now, effort in details also may vary, just need to find the most effective & efficient one for you.

    For example, I still consider Thunder Crest is good place to find % enchantment green item. Why?
    Because that map still fit into my farming place categories. Which are so simple:
    - Good drop rate or guarantee drop from monster.
    no drop = no gold line, good drop rate & guarantee drop = chance to get gold line.
    - Faster kill
    slow kill = slower time to get gold line, faster kill = faster time to get gold line
    - Minimum resource
    Does not require ess, hp potion..ect.
    - % enchantment does not scale with level
    I don't need to have lvl 50 items for this. Except for typical items like weapon, need to be crafted with lvl 50 junk so the end result will be lvl 49.

    I consider Varholm & the mine inside is better than Q3M1 painful to fatal for finding all type of green & blue main ingredients.
    But Q3M1 painful is surely good for me to get exo junk.

    When Dunes of Disappointment was on, it was my source of main green & blue ingredients. When about to craft to legendary, I farm Q3M1 for exo junk.

    Now Dragan event is on. If I want green & blue main ingredients. I would play normal Castle & those 4 map inside it.
    If I want exo junk, I would play difficult Castle.

    I believe more experienced crafter have their own method that works effective & efficient for them.

    Some of my guild mates does not understand this kind of effort. They have difficulties even in PVE and felt so stuck didn't know what to do to improve their toon or for better playing experience.
    They ask for suggestion, I would not force them to follow mine. But persuasion needed to ensure they have tendency to explore the game in their own way that able show that they actually really care for their toon. Sooner or later they would realise that so much/many features/information that have not explore yet. And crafting is just one of it.

    I don't say your guild mates who quit did not care with his/her toon, but might be they are.
     
  13. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    Uh, are you playing the same pvp I am? Everything is very simple these days, as baragain describes. There are not "different types of builds". In fact, there were more builds at level 45 then there are now. By my count, the dominant builds today in 5v5 pvp are: 3 types of dks (2H warlord, 1h heredur, 1h warlord + wolf shield), 1 type of sw (2H, casting either frost sphere or some fire attack), 2 type of ranger (armor of darkness + longbow, sometimes warlord + longbow as well) and 2 types of mechs (2H warlord, 1H shield runner*). Everybody else is just dead meat.

    Theres basically 2 ways to win - have one of these builds and throw cash at it (more common) or just have better input hardware and internet connections to be slightly ahead of your opponents. Neither of these is really making the game exciting.

    *it will be interesting to see how mechs adjust once the wolf slayer absorber starts dropping. Most top mechs appear to be using the heredur shield or a legendary shield. However, my mech actually has the wolf slayer absorber (I might be the only mech in the level 50 pvp game in agathon with it, as I got mine from the chest) and it is a very effective piece of equipment (mine is something like 55% block rate and 1.35 block strength, i forget what the crit is but i think mid 400s and kind of irrelevant anyway). If I had a 3 or 4 golden line legendary 1H gun instead of a 2 golden line extraordinary gun (90% weapon damage, +50ish damage, 4 slots, 3 radiant rubies and 1 radiant sapphire) and actually had full flawless/sacred gems instead of radiants with some flawless, I probably would have insanely cleaned up in pvp.
     
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  14. Beldak

    Beldak Regular

    PvP in this game is a big fat joke, no skill needed at all. As a past PvPer in many online games, this game's PvP is an offence against the PvP community out there. Rangers spamming EA, SW spamming fireball, DK running around healing waiting for exhaustion to kick in, mechs land turrets and run around like headless chickens, just laughable.

    Yesterday I had a 1v1 match (doing them for the daily, which also need to change in order to stop forcing people to play matches when they just stand there) against a marshal DK (i'm a centurion), he/she was a really nice person and we talked about this after i killed his/hers toon, he/she prepared to the spamming of fireball/sphere from my SW (which i don't use in PvP), and when he/she saw that i'm running towards them, they got a little confused about how i played, PMed me and asked why i wasn't spamming fireball like the rest.
    In a long time i didn't have a match i can say "that was a fun match", so i stopped, and entering PvP only when i need to. once in 14 matches you get someone that play different (usually new people), but those are disappearing as well.
     
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  15. cdeepal

    cdeepal Forum Baron

    If you think that is lesser variety, then why do you want to restrict even more by forcing people to do balanced builds?
     
  16. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    No, it wouldn't force anything. It would simply de-incentivize extreme builds that take no skill to play with. I'm sure that there would still be people who would have tendencies to lean towards one side or the other. It isn't one of those things where you either are a glass cannon or a indestructible feather. There is a continuum of builds, but right now, most builds fall far to one side or the other. Think of it like this:

    Right now:
    Full damage:
    -------------------------------:------------------------------|
    Defensive......................Balanced...............................Offensive

    Full defense:
    |------------------------------:-------------------------------
    Defensive......................Balanced...............................Offensive


    If damage mitigation were implemented, we may see things like this:

    -------------------------------|-------------------------------

    ----------------|--------------:-------------------------------

    -------------------------------:-----------------|-------------

    ------------------------|------:-------------------------------

    -------------------------------:---------|---------------------

    -------------------------------:----|--------------------------

    -------------------------------:--------------|----------------

    --------------------|----------:-------------------------------

    ...
    And so on, but the extreme builds would lose their appeal. Tell me how this is a decrease in variety? Skill once again becomes an important factor and builds get tailored to play styles instead of just trying to max out one stat.

    Let it also be said that this is not coming from someone who regularly gets their butt kicked and wants to take the power out of the hands of the top players. If anything, I'm one of those who would be reined in by changes such as this. I regularly kill opponents higher ranking than me with one or two hits just as often as they are able to kill me with one or two hits. The only thing that I'm good at is weaving in between the fireballs, frost spheres, hunting arrows, explosive arrows, turret bullets, and rockets. That is only part of the tool box of skills that a PvP'er should have, equal in importance as aiming for a ranged toon, but these two skills should not be the be-all and end-all of PvP like it is now.

    On a separate note, why are you so ardently defending a system that is so incredibly flawed? Even the top players who benefit the most from this imbalance right now know that it is imbalanced. They may not want it changed because they'd have to change, but I can't think of any well reasoned argument to keep it "as is" right now besides that fear of change (and that is hardly "well reasoned"). Other than your assumption that it would further decrease diversity (which I feel is totally off base), what is your thought process about why it should stay unchanged?
     
  17. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    nobody does a balanced build - if balanced builds were also desirable the unbalanced builds would still be useful and you'll have even more variety along the gradient of balanced builds, as baragain mentions.

    When's the last time you've seen a 1H SW in top level pvp? Or a hammer mech?
     
  18. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    All the time. The #1 PvPer on Agathon is a 1H SW, but he is more the exception than the rule.
     
  19. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    I haven't seen him in a while, but I almost always do 5v5 pvp in the late evening to after midnight hours ET. I see the #5/#6 guy (same person, gas 4 toons) all the time, though.
     
  20. cdeepal

    cdeepal Forum Baron

    The strongest SWs I have seen are using 1H.
     
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